The law was until Christ...Christ was that which came! This is not that complicated John.
So, twenty some years later, the shadow is still there looking for something yet to come.
I think you missed the entire point of the passage.
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So, twenty some years later, the shadow is still there looking for something yet to come.
I think you missed the entire point of the passage.
M
Mitspa
Guest
No Paul is teaching what he taught all through all his epistles that the law was until Christ...and Christ being the Body is the substance of the shadow....its very simple and its quite well understood by most biblical scholars ...its seems only folks like ellen g white cant grasp what the scripture is clearly saying.
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The Body is....present tense.....not future tense!
M
Mitspa
Guest
M
Mitspa
Guest
M
Mitspa
Guest
IMO The ultimate purpose of the Law was to demonstrate to mankind that we are unable to please God in our own efforts.
When the Law was first given it had the same purpose it has now:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV
could you please point out the part of your cited scripture that says the 7th day Sabbath is in question here
Rom 14:5-6
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
KJV
another esteemeth every day alike
I challenge you to show me how the Sabbath is not included in every day. Every day refers to all 354 days of the lunar-solar calendar; or 365 days of the Gregorian.
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I will respectfully disagree here...
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
The first thing we see here is that this chapter is about relating to a weak brother.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
The subject here? Vegetarianism
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
So, if you encounter one who is weak in the faith and believes he must eat vegetables only, don’t let this puff you up…
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
What is the gold standard here?
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Now to the meat and potatoes…
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Why is eating and fasting (not eating) connected to days here? Let’s see…
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Yes they fasted two days a week, Monday and Thursday, EVERY MONDAY and EVERY THURSDAY.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Now Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols. At the time, meat and drink were offered to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
Shambles…
G3111
μάκελλον
makellon
Thayer Definition:
1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin [macellum]
Citing in TDNT: 4:370, 549
There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by this. They somehow thought that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the idolatrous practices around them. This is why the following is written…
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Meat here is…
G1035
βρῶσις
brōsis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively); by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.
Notice it is food, not clean or unclean flesh.
G4213
πόσις
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.
Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages. Paul was dealing with ascetism and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character. He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the usingafter the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s…
G1033
βρῶμα
brōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is eaten, food
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977
Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111
Again, we are dealing with food.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink) that makes a weak brother stumble.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
There is no passage in Rom 14 that deals with the Sabbath or clean and unclean meats. The subjects are vegetarianism, fasting and food and drink offered to idols.
I certainly agree that the appointed times of Leviticus 23 (including the Sabbath) are still important to God and of great benefit to believers.
Zech 14:9-19
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Since observance of the (feast) appointed time of tabernacles will be compulsory during the millennium, believers certainly do well to consider the appointed times worthy of their attention now.
It is certainly my role and yours to point out the benefit of observing appointed times; but conviction is the role of the Holy Spirit; and I am not about to take it upon myself.
Was the Sabbath abolished?
Should Christians observe the 4th commandment?
Or is it still in effect like the other 9 commandments?
Please respond with biblical evidence
Does Jesus tell us Christians to keep the Sabbath? The answer is NO
Does the Apostles tell us Christians to keep the Sabbath? The answer is also NO.
When Jesus was alive, He kept all the laws of the Old Covenant, He had to or sin would have been found in Him. But here is the Truth, Jesus nor ANY Apostle, instructs us Christians to continue to keep a law that was considered to be the OLD COVENANT.
As to abolishing it, NO, it is not abolished, i have kept the Sabbath Holy for over 10 years. NOT because i am instructed to do so, NOT because i am commanded to do so, NOT because any of the New Testament teaches me to keep it, i choose to keep it for personal reasons. But those who teach you MUST keep it, are in error and are indeed teaching things that Jesus nor His Apostles ever taught, they are teaching strange doctrines and do not know the Truth.
^i^ Responding to OP
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Uh, He said to keep the Commandments...
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He set an example to follow...
1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Uh, yes...
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
The Diaglott has this as...
Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.
Even the translators of the NIV knew how to translate Sabbatismos...
New International Version
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
New American Standard Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
What day do you suppose this is?
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Oh, so not keeping the Laws today is not sin?
Let's see if we are instructed to keep the Law...
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
This is a direct quote from...
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
And the word for Law in verse 33 is...
H8451
תֹּרָה תּוֹרָה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
Total KJV occurrences: 219
Now please show me where we are instructed in the New Testament NOT TO KEEP the Sabbath.
It is not abolished but you just don't want to keep it?
I find it interesting that there is so much resistance to doing something just because God commands us to. Frankly, I have no problem with doing anything God says to do. But then, there is this verse...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Matt 5:19
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
KJV
From Jesus' words we may infer:
1) Observance of the Law is still pleasing to God.
2) Failure to keep the law does not exclude people from the kingdom of heaven but persistent sin does exclude peoplefrom heaven
3) our choices here with respect to the Law effect our status in the kingdom of heaven when (or if) we arrive,
Rom 8:1-14
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
KJV
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
I understand this to mean that our relationship with God is based on what Jesus did for me and not on what I do
Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
"none of them is lost" "but the son of perdition" Why do I use this text? Context matters.
If I only read to the end of none of them is lost then I could say. "how can one be lost if none of them are lost?"
simple illustration but makes the point.
So simply taking "everyday" and assuming that it means that there are no special days to God is a false conclusion based on a false premise.
So examine the context:
point 1, Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
First point is that the subjects here are about doubtful disputations, things that may not be spelled out directly in the Torah.
The 7th day Sabbath is clear in the Scripture nothing doubtful about it.
Point 2,
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
The point is that we should not judge others on things that are not spelled out in the Torah/scriptures of their day. If there is no thus Says the Lord then don't judge others on it. Cause in the end God is their judge.
Point 3,
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
It does not say God esteemeth every day alike but rather one man does and one man differs. This is about people who are making issues over days in which the scriptures/God does not.
This again does not include the Sabbath as it is indisputable and clear in Scripture.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
God will Judge but what does that matter if it does not matter what you do as long as you do it unto the Lord?
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Paul say nothing is unclean really so shall I assume that I can eat anything then?
That same Paul agreed to this:
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
This if you know the Law is unclean.
I say this to make again a simple point, context matters.
In fact if we widen the context even more to the whole book of Romans it becomes clear that Paul is not dissing the law that is not a doubtful issue.
I think its very easy to see that the 7th day Sabbath can not be included in this.
Unless you would like to demonstrate how the 7th day Sabbath is a doubtful disputation form the same Scriptures they used/Old Testament.
DiscipleDave said
You do error, This is not telling CHRISTIANS to keep the sabbath, A man under the old covenant, asks Jesus "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" So Jesus told this man the Truth, keep the 10 commandments, Do all things Moses commanded, keep the Old Covenant. What then? Do you think Jesus should have told this man, who was under the old covenant, that he MUST believe that He is the Son of God, and rose from the dead. When He has not yet done that thing? ANY MAN under the old covenant asking Jesus while He is under the old covenant as well, is going to answer exactly as He did above. But again, This statement is NOT to Christians, which i have a funny feeling i will be saying a lot to you in replying to all that you say.
lol are you being serious right now, i hope not. If we are to do everything that Jesus did while He walked the Earth, then we are also under the OLD Covenant, we must keep ALL 600+ commandments, that Jesus also HAD to keep so sin was not found in Him. Jesus also walked everywhere He went, i guess that means you should stop driving vehicles, and start walking as Jesus did too.
What am i to do with this generation. Know you not that Jesus Christ was under the OLD Covenant, He lived it, breathed it, and He kept it perfectly, Else sin would have been found in Him. It was the custom of Jesus Christ to DO ALL, to DO EVERYTHING that was required by the LAW to do, He even sacrificed animals as per the LAW of the old Covenant. He observed ALL the feast days, passover, ALL OF IT, else sin would have been found in Him. The NEW covenant started the moment it was witnessed that Jesus Christ the Son of God rose from the dead and lives. The New Covenant is NOT the old covenant. While Jesus was alive, He taught to keep the LAW, all 600+ of them, Because He and those He was teaching to, were under the OLD COVENANT. Again, my statement is True that Jesus did NOT tell Christians to continue to keep the Sabbath, The Apostle aslo never not once taught us Christians to continue to keep the Sabbath. This is a True Statement.
DiscipleDave said:
There is a rest for the people of God, This verse is in no way instructing Christians to keep the weekly sabbath day Holy. It is your assumption that this verse is referring to a WEEKLY Sabbath.
Hence the very reason there is so much confusion in the world, and over a hundred different denominations. Where does confusion come from? God or satan?
Actually this is True, but again, this is not saying that Christians or the people of God should keep the WEEKLY SABBATH, This is only saying the Truth, that there is a Sabbath rest for the people of God. and That Rest is Jesus Christ, NOT a particular day in the week.
Again, there is a Sabbath Rest for the people of God, This is NOT saying or instructing Christians to continue to Keep the weekly Sabbath as a day of rest.. Where you do error is you think SABBATH REST and DAY OF REST are the same things.
made my point exactly, you think SABBATH REST is a particular day of a week. you do error, and do not understand the Truth.
DiscipleDave said :
Oh, so not keeping the Laws today is not sin?
Let's see if we are instructed to keep the Law...
Heb 8:8 For find.. .. . .. .. . .. . . .. . .uities will I remember no more. [/quote]
We Christians are to keep His commandments. His laws that are written on our hearts is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER and to believe in Jesus Christ, these are also His commandments.
I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
now this generation will teach falsely by saying His Commandments are the 10 commandments, But let us hear the conclusion of the matter, lets us hear what the Apostle John plainly tells us what His Commandments Are.
I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and 2) LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as He gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.
NOTHING about the 10 commandments there. Do the above and Jesus dwells in you, and you in Him.
Jesus nor any Apostle instructs us Christians to keep the weekly SABBATH. If we were instructed NOT to keep the Sabbath then i assure you i would not have kept it for over 10 years now. My point has been, and continues to be, we are not instructed to keep the weekly sabbath, and that is a True Statement.
DiscipleDave said :
It is not abolished but you just don't want to keep it? [/quote]
This is a good example of someone who does not read and understand the entire post before responding to it. You just said "It is not abolished but you just don't want to keep it?" Yet i have said in the very first statement above, that i have kept it over 10 years, is that what they call selective reading?
You need to do a study on the Law of Liberty.
The old covenant was all about LAWS, Do's and Don'ts.
The new covenant is all about LOVE ONE ANOTHER, not about do's and don'ts
The carnal mind is concerned about the do's and don'ts
The spiritual mind is concerned about others and not self.
You say you have not problem doing what God tells you. Are you aware that God tells you to NOT obey satan.
Are you aware that God says with every single temptation that comes upon you, that it is not so strong that you can't handle it, and with every temptation that comes upon you, God allows you a path out of it.
Well if you truly have no problem doing what God tells you, then you are one of us few who actually live that way, the narrow and difficult path. God tells you not to sin, He also teaches how we can do that, i am thankful it is not problem for you to do, because it was very difficult for me, but not any more.
Didn't God tell a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" What if God told you to do that, brother. Would that also be no problem to do if God told you to do that?
Also you are very big on teaching that you MUST keep the SABBATH, i have for over 10 years now, Have you? Do you? or do you teach it, but do it not. Do you teach do not steal, yet you steal? Do you teach to Keep the weekly Sabbath, yet you do not keep it? just wandering brother.
^i^ Responding to Post #1032
You do error, This is not telling CHRISTIANS to keep the sabbath, A man under the old covenant, asks Jesus "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" So Jesus told this man the Truth, keep the 10 commandments, Do all things Moses commanded, keep the Old Covenant. What then? Do you think Jesus should have told this man, who was under the old covenant, that he MUST believe that He is the Son of God, and rose from the dead. When He has not yet done that thing? ANY MAN under the old covenant asking Jesus while He is under the old covenant as well, is going to answer exactly as He did above. But again, This statement is NOT to Christians, which i have a funny feeling i will be saying a lot to you in replying to all that you say.
lol are you being serious right now, i hope not. If we are to do everything that Jesus did while He walked the Earth, then we are also under the OLD Covenant, we must keep ALL 600+ commandments, that Jesus also HAD to keep so sin was not found in Him. Jesus also walked everywhere He went, i guess that means you should stop driving vehicles, and start walking as Jesus did too.
What am i to do with this generation. Know you not that Jesus Christ was under the OLD Covenant, He lived it, breathed it, and He kept it perfectly, Else sin would have been found in Him. It was the custom of Jesus Christ to DO ALL, to DO EVERYTHING that was required by the LAW to do, He even sacrificed animals as per the LAW of the old Covenant. He observed ALL the feast days, passover, ALL OF IT, else sin would have been found in Him. The NEW covenant started the moment it was witnessed that Jesus Christ the Son of God rose from the dead and lives. The New Covenant is NOT the old covenant. While Jesus was alive, He taught to keep the LAW, all 600+ of them, Because He and those He was teaching to, were under the OLD COVENANT. Again, my statement is True that Jesus did NOT tell Christians to continue to keep the Sabbath, The Apostle aslo never not once taught us Christians to continue to keep the Sabbath. This is a True Statement.
DiscipleDave said:
There is a rest for the people of God, This verse is in no way instructing Christians to keep the weekly sabbath day Holy. It is your assumption that this verse is referring to a WEEKLY Sabbath.
Hence the very reason there is so much confusion in the world, and over a hundred different denominations. Where does confusion come from? God or satan?
Actually this is True, but again, this is not saying that Christians or the people of God should keep the WEEKLY SABBATH, This is only saying the Truth, that there is a Sabbath rest for the people of God. and That Rest is Jesus Christ, NOT a particular day in the week.
Again, there is a Sabbath Rest for the people of God, This is NOT saying or instructing Christians to continue to Keep the weekly Sabbath as a day of rest.. Where you do error is you think SABBATH REST and DAY OF REST are the same things.
made my point exactly, you think SABBATH REST is a particular day of a week. you do error, and do not understand the Truth.
DiscipleDave said :
Oh, so not keeping the Laws today is not sin?
Let's see if we are instructed to keep the Law...
Heb 8:8 For find.. .. . .. .. . .. . . .. . .uities will I remember no more. [/quote]
We Christians are to keep His commandments. His laws that are written on our hearts is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER and to believe in Jesus Christ, these are also His commandments.
I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
now this generation will teach falsely by saying His Commandments are the 10 commandments, But let us hear the conclusion of the matter, lets us hear what the Apostle John plainly tells us what His Commandments Are.
I John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and 2) LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as He gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.
NOTHING about the 10 commandments there. Do the above and Jesus dwells in you, and you in Him.
Jesus nor any Apostle instructs us Christians to keep the weekly SABBATH. If we were instructed NOT to keep the Sabbath then i assure you i would not have kept it for over 10 years now. My point has been, and continues to be, we are not instructed to keep the weekly sabbath, and that is a True Statement.
DiscipleDave said :
It is not abolished but you just don't want to keep it? [/quote]
This is a good example of someone who does not read and understand the entire post before responding to it. You just said "It is not abolished but you just don't want to keep it?" Yet i have said in the very first statement above, that i have kept it over 10 years, is that what they call selective reading?
You need to do a study on the Law of Liberty.
The old covenant was all about LAWS, Do's and Don'ts.
The new covenant is all about LOVE ONE ANOTHER, not about do's and don'ts
The carnal mind is concerned about the do's and don'ts
The spiritual mind is concerned about others and not self.
You say you have not problem doing what God tells you. Are you aware that God tells you to NOT obey satan.
Are you aware that God says with every single temptation that comes upon you, that it is not so strong that you can't handle it, and with every temptation that comes upon you, God allows you a path out of it.
Well if you truly have no problem doing what God tells you, then you are one of us few who actually live that way, the narrow and difficult path. God tells you not to sin, He also teaches how we can do that, i am thankful it is not problem for you to do, because it was very difficult for me, but not any more.
Didn't God tell a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" What if God told you to do that, brother. Would that also be no problem to do if God told you to do that?
Also you are very big on teaching that you MUST keep the SABBATH, i have for over 10 years now, Have you? Do you? or do you teach it, but do it not. Do you teach do not steal, yet you steal? Do you teach to Keep the weekly Sabbath, yet you do not keep it? just wandering brother.
^i^ Responding to Post #1032
S
sparkman
Guest
The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant
Exodus 34:28 “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the word of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:18 “And he gave to Moses when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone”.
Deut 9:9 “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you.”
Deut 9:11 “And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and Israel, not God and Christians
Ex 31:12-17 And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
The Sabbath, as part of the Old Covenant, is not in affect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
Jesus is our Sabbath or spiritual rest, and we enter into that spiritual rest by placing our faith in Him
Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and lean from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Heb 4:1-8 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest. “ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.”. Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had not given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from is works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians are under the New Covenant, which has much higher demands and different commandments
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Heb 9:15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jn 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am a former Sabbathkeeper due to my association with Worldwide Church of God (now called Grace Communion International). Worldwide Church of God came to realize in 1995 that Christians are under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant, and the Sabbath does not apply to Christians under the New Covenant. It was a sign of the Old Covenant (like baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of the New Covenant), and is not a moral absolute like Sabbathkeepers claim. Sabbathkeeping doctrine invariably takes the focus off the true gospel, which is about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in Him (Eph 2:8-9). As a Sabbathkeeper, I rarely heard messages about God’s grace and love; the message of such organizations invariably focuses on the Sabbath. Jesus Christ was also placed on the backburner and was not the focus of their teaching. If you would like good sources of information in regards to the Sabbath check out Grace Communion International’s website at https://www.gci.org/law I now attend an Evangelical Free church that focuses on Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, which is the true gospel.
Exodus 34:28 “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the word of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:18 “And he gave to Moses when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone”.
Deut 9:9 “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you.”
Deut 9:11 “And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and Israel, not God and Christians
Ex 31:12-17 And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
The Sabbath, as part of the Old Covenant, is not in affect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
Jesus is our Sabbath or spiritual rest, and we enter into that spiritual rest by placing our faith in Him
Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and lean from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Heb 4:1-8 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest. “ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.”. Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had not given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from is works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians are under the New Covenant, which has much higher demands and different commandments
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Heb 9:15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jn 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am a former Sabbathkeeper due to my association with Worldwide Church of God (now called Grace Communion International). Worldwide Church of God came to realize in 1995 that Christians are under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant, and the Sabbath does not apply to Christians under the New Covenant. It was a sign of the Old Covenant (like baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of the New Covenant), and is not a moral absolute like Sabbathkeepers claim. Sabbathkeeping doctrine invariably takes the focus off the true gospel, which is about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in Him (Eph 2:8-9). As a Sabbathkeeper, I rarely heard messages about God’s grace and love; the message of such organizations invariably focuses on the Sabbath. Jesus Christ was also placed on the backburner and was not the focus of their teaching. If you would like good sources of information in regards to the Sabbath check out Grace Communion International’s website at https://www.gci.org/law I now attend an Evangelical Free church that focuses on Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, which is the true gospel.
T
Tintin
Guest
A
aldy
Guest
The fourth commandment?Exodus 20:8
8 | Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy...
There is no mention in the bible to change the Sabbath to sunday
and I think change this is against God
Ecclesiastes 3:14
14 | I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God hath done it, that men should fear before him.
NB:Constantin the great seems to have made this change In the year 321 A.D
In both Old and New Testament there is not a shadow of variation in the doctrine of the Sabbath. The seventh day, Saturday, is the only day ever designated by the term Sabbath in the entire Bible.
Not only was Jesus a perfect example in observing the weekly seventh-day Sabbath,
Luke 4:16
16 | And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.
but all His disciples followed the same pattern after Jesus had gone back to heaven
Acts 13:44
44 | And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
but there is already someone who is appointed to change this as the prophet said:
Daniel 7:25
25 | And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law...
8 | Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy...
There is no mention in the bible to change the Sabbath to sunday
and I think change this is against God
Ecclesiastes 3:14
14 | I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it; and God hath done it, that men should fear before him.
NB:Constantin the great seems to have made this change In the year 321 A.D
In both Old and New Testament there is not a shadow of variation in the doctrine of the Sabbath. The seventh day, Saturday, is the only day ever designated by the term Sabbath in the entire Bible.
Not only was Jesus a perfect example in observing the weekly seventh-day Sabbath,
Luke 4:16
16 | And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and he entered, as his custom was, into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.
but all His disciples followed the same pattern after Jesus had gone back to heaven
Acts 13:44
44 | And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
but there is already someone who is appointed to change this as the prophet said:
Daniel 7:25
25 | And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law...
Yahshua/Jesus own words:
Mattithyah 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."
Mattithyah 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day."
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
Mattithyah 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."
Mattithyah 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day."
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
The reason Jesus said to the Jews that to pray that their flight be not in the winter or a Sabbath day is because Jesus knew that the Romans were coming to destroy Jerusalem which is filled with Jews. There are travel restrictions for Jews on the Sabbath day and this would interfere with them getting out of Jerusalem. This has nothing to do with Gentile Christians keeping an obsolete commandment from the Law of Moses.
The Christians have died to the law of Moses, has been released from the Law of Moses and is NOT under the law of Moses but under grace only. I don't know how much plainer it can get than that. If others want to observe a day for whatever reason - go for it. The Christian is not bound to any law of Moses.
The law is NOT of faith. The righteous shall live by faith. Do not fall for anyone that is telling you that you must keep a Sabbath day. That is called a Judaizer that comes in to try to get Christians to go back to the law of Moses for life and living. Don't fall for this false religion. This is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
Christ has fulfilled all the law for us and we are in Him.
The Christians have died to the law of Moses, has been released from the Law of Moses and is NOT under the law of Moses but under grace only. I don't know how much plainer it can get than that. If others want to observe a day for whatever reason - go for it. The Christian is not bound to any law of Moses.
The law is NOT of faith. The righteous shall live by faith. Do not fall for anyone that is telling you that you must keep a Sabbath day. That is called a Judaizer that comes in to try to get Christians to go back to the law of Moses for life and living. Don't fall for this false religion. This is a perversion of the gospel of Christ.
Christ has fulfilled all the law for us and we are in Him.