The Apostles taught Infant Baptism!

[SeaBass]

So you see no difference between believing in our head and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead? (Romans 10:9). With the heart one believes unto righteousness.. (Romans 10:10).

Your belief does not entrust your spiritual well being to Christ when you are trusting in your works to save you. So you did not understand my analogy about George Washington? I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington as the means of my salvation. It's the same with Christ. As I said, many "professing" Christians today believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ, but they are not trusting exclusively in Him as the means of their salvation. Mere "mental assent" belief in Christ conjoined with trust and reliance in WORKS as the means of our salvation is not saving belief/faith.

The obedient works are the fruit of living faith, not the essence of living faith and not the means of our salvation. We are made alive with Christ by grace through faith, created in Christ Jesus, FIRST then "unto/for good works" (Ephesians 2:5-10). These obedient works that follow are produced from living faith, not dead faith. We must not put the cart before the horse or else we end up with salvation by works.

You posted "So you see no difference between believing in our head and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead? (Romans 10:9). With the heart one believes unto righteousness.. (Romans 10:10). "

Wait a minute, you have changed what you are saying. Before I do not remember you saying anything about "believing unto righteousness" for that is a work not a mental assent of the mind. That context also puts confessing with the mouth before salvation which is another work that must be done before one can be saved.

Rom 10:10--------believe unto righteousness
Rom 6:16---------obedience unto righteousness

Since there is just one way to be saved/made righteous then belief is obeying and not just a mental activity.

Believing is DOING righteousness and he that continues to not do righteousness (as believing) continues to not be of God, 1 Jn 3:10.

Jn 6:27-29 Jesus calls belief a work...and it is a work of righteousness and not just mental assent of the mind.

 

[SeaBass]

I know we are getting a bit off topic here, but I fell its important to correct you here. By this statment of yours, I see you follow Martin Luther’s feeling that an individual can interpret the Bible perfectly if they pray first. I/Catholics agree that the Holy Spirit guides our Bible reading and illuminates our understanding.

No, I do not follow Martin for Martin Luther was wrong about some things as faith only. The bible speaks for itself that one can read and understand it, Eph 3:3,4.

However, I'm not sure that every time someone picks up a Bible, prays, and starts reading, that they are surrounded by the Holy Spirit, even if they are sincere. For example, Martin Luther, after praying and reading the Bible, decided that the Book of James didn't belong in the Bible. To me this is a problem, because here is a guy prayerfully reading the Bible, who decided parts of it didn't belong there, yet he said the Bible was the unerring word of God. This seems kind of cyclical to me. In the preface to his Bible, Martin Luther said:

"the St. James' Epistle is really an epistle of straw ... for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it."
​

About the Book of Revelation, Luther said:

"I miss more than one thing in this book, and this makes me hold it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.. . . and can nohow detect that the Holy Spirit produced it . . . there are many far better books for us to keep."
​

So even for Martin Luther, Scripture alone was not enough, he acknowledged that there needed to be human authority governing it, he just thought that the authority should be him, rather than the Catholic Church.

Surely God did not want people to have conflicting interpretations of Scripture, because that would be in conflict with the Bible itself which calls us to unity. (Jn 17:21) Each of these 33,820 denominations was formed because people came to an irreconcilable difference over the interpretation of Scripture. If Truth is not reletive then there can be only one Truth. Therefore, not everyone who honestly feels they are led by the Holy Spirit when reading Scripture is correct.

Again,note Eph 3:3,4 and note that Paul did NOT say 'when ye read ye may understand only with miraculous help of the Holy Spirit.

IN Acts 8, why did not the spirit just miraculously "illuminate" the understanding of the eunuch so he would have perfect knowledge of scripture instead of sending a man to preach to him?

There are many "Bible believing" denominations (possibly yours?) who say "Jesus is Lord" have now ruled that Gay Marriage and abortions are OK. This includes Lutherans, some Methodist churches, the United Church, Anglicans, Episcopalians etc. That is their interpretation of Scripture. I/Catholics have a problem with that. I/we think Jesus understood the human mind's capacity to rationalize its own wishes even with the Bible in hand, and while saying "Jesus is Lord." I believe we need a higher authority than millions of diverse and conflicting Christians with Bibles in their hands. Catholics think that the final word on the interpretation of Scripture falls on the authority to which Jesus appointed. (Mathew 16:18-19).

I have to get to work right now, and will continue my post later.

Pax Christi


"because he has looked upon the humiliation of his servant. Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed' ---Luke 1:48

I have nor belong to any denomination but get all that I believe from the bible. The church of Christ never has and never will accept homosexuality as being righteousness. But in time, maybe not out lifetimes, Catholicism will accept homosexuality as it will as make females priests. That first century church did not use instrumental music but obeyed the command to sing and who all has deviated away from that? They baptized adult believers, who has deviated away from that? That first century church doe snot have a earthly headquarters with a man as its head, who has deviated away from that? Those first century apostles did not teach original sin, who deviated away from that? That first century church as no priests to absolve sins, no transubstantiation, no holy water, etc, etc .....who deviated away from that first century church?

 

[SeaBass]

The tradition you are coming from is called "restorationist", however it should rather be called rationalist, since much of what it believes seems to be centered around the philosophy that "you can't believe anything that your mind cannot comprehend rationally" i.e. you must understand things only by your intellect before you can believe them.

The way you want to have it, that all infants are innocent and sinless, may be appealing to the sort of emotionalism that would think it "harsh" by God to hold sin against them. But scripture is not agreeing with you. Scripture says that all men have sinned (Rom.3:23). It does not put up any age limit for that category.

It is only "preposterous" to believe that John the baptist did not understand what was going on, even while in his mother's womb, other than for the rationalist who makes faith in God entirely being something of intellectual and mental consent and understanding, not believing God when He says that faith is a gift which only His sheep, His elect, actually possess. And there is no age limit when they will possess it. You are age-limiting Acts.2:39, whereas scriptures is silent about such a discrimination.

Your judgment that people "with severe mental disability are innocent as infants" may sound plausible. But do you know in every case where such comes from? Do you think it always has to be because of genetic defects or other medical reasons? That would be to say far too much. Again, your rationalism makes incursions on what God revealed in the Scriptures.

The tradition I have comes from the apostles, 2 Thess 3:6. The restoration movement was a movement to get people away from denominationalism back to that "one body" of Eph 4:5, to having one mind, Phil 2:2 one like precious faith, 1 Pet 1:1.

I believe in things my mind cannot comprehend. I cannot comprehend the power of God in creating the universe or comprehend how his foreknowledge and providence works in the lives of men, but I know it is there. YEt when it comes to things as doctrine one can know and must know....." know the truth" God;s word is truth, Jn 17:17 so God's word can be known.

I am not going to blindly leave the eternal fate of muy soul in tghe hands of other people and what they "think". Now that would be irrational.


There is nothing in the bible that suggests John had the cognitive skills and awareness to what was going on no more than Jacob and Esau when they moved within Rebekah (same Greek word used in LXX as is used with John). It would be irrational to think any embryo has knowledge of the bible, math science etc. Your making a desperate search to find away to make believers out of infants so they can be baptized. The bible tells me infants have done no right or wrong, Rom 9:11; do not know right from wrong, Isa 7:15,16; a child is to be taught in the way he should go, Prov 22:6; "fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" Eph 6:4. If John, or any infant, were born capable of having a belief the NT requires then none of these things would be true or necessary. What would be the purpose of Christ's great commission to have the gospel preached to every creature, Mk 16:15,16 so they can believe if everyone is already born knowing and believing the gospel?

 

[SeaBass]

You would be incorrect. I rely on the Church to interpret the Bible when it comes to essential doctrine. Now like it or not bassman, history tells us that the Canon of Scripture was not arrived at until 382 A.D. Until then, there was some dispute over both the Old and the New Testament. In 382 A.D. the Catholic Church, in a general council of bishops at Rome, under the supervision and sanction of the Pope, discerned the list of books which belong in the Bible. Therefore, if the Church discerned which books are the Bible, as Catholics, we believe that the Church can rightly interpret the written Word of God.

Now... does this deny any Catholic or non-Catholic Christian from studying and meditating on God's Holy Word? Absolutly not!
As David wrote in Ps. 119: "Thy Word have I hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against thee." Catholics, as all other Christians, ought to seek God's will for their individual lives by reading the Bible. Christ does speak to us through the Bible; He: leads us....teaches us, and strengthens our faith through His Word. As Saint Paul wrote in Romans, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.(Romans 10:17)
Our Lord said that he would build a Church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:13-20) He told Peter feed my sheep. (John 21:15-17) St. Paul wrote to Timothy and told him to appoint bishops and elders. Presbyters is where we get the word for our New Testament Priest. Pope Francis (St.Peter's successor) bishops and priests are responsible for feeding His sheep. He did not say go write a book and let every man figure it out for himself. There are 30,000 plus Protestant denominations, each of whom is claiming that the Holy Spirit has lead them to teach this or that. Jesus says Himself, "He is The Way, The Truth, and The Light" not... "the way(s), the truth(s), and the light(s)."


This is starting to sway off the topic of infant baptisim. Out of respect to the OP, we should stay on topic. However. feel free to start a new thread.


Well bassman, something you should consider...The Bible contains many “rules and regulations” concerning baptism. All of these “rules and regulations” in the Bible regarding baptism are for adults since that in the entire Bible the people that are speaking and interacting are an adult, or they are people that are old enough to have a comprehension level of an adult. To better rephrase the latter part of the last statement; all of the Biblical figures, which are adults, are of the age of reason; they are able to discern what is right and what is wrong.








Since these “rules and regulations” are written for adults that are recorded
from adults’ interactions with Jesus and the Apostles in the New Testament they cannot apply in exactly the same way the same to infants who live under different circumstances.Infants are new to the world and the only sin they have against them is the Original sin. An infant is not old enough to be able to sin against God for they have not even come close to the age of reason. In order to read the Scriptures one must have some sort of adult comprehension and reading level to obtain a basic understanding.
Now, someone might come back with the argument that infants also are not old enough, or of the age of reason, to have faith in Jesus Christ. In light of that argument one should keep in mind two key points: one must have a comprehension like that of the people of the New Testament to fall under the same criteria for Biblical adult baptism and that Jesus was sent by the Father so that anyone who obeys Him and does the will of the Father will be saved ( John 3:16-18, John 6:40).

Anyone includes all people. It means that the kingdom of God is open to
all people who meet the above stated criteria, which includes infants for they are people just as we are people and one’s grandparents are people.
Since the Kingdom of God is open to anyone who seeks and believes in Christ and since baptism is a necessity for entrance into the Kingdom (John 3:5) and since infants do not have the same comprehension level as adults nor have they reached the age of reason then the provisions for infant baptism must be different than the ones for adult conversion and baptism.However, this does not mean that infants do not get the same effects as an adult baptism because it is still the act of baptism.


The Bible tells us in John 21:25 that there are many things that Jesus did, but are not contained in the Scriptures. Recall that in order to read the Scriptures one must have some sort of adult comprehension level.Ponder the following question bassman... why would the Scriptures instruct someone how to be baptized as an infant if they had already passed that stage of their life? Second Thess. 2:15 says, “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, either by word of mouth [oral statement] or by letter.This verse also shows that there are some things that are not written and that things handed down (i.e. tradition) are just as good as those that are written.

Infant baptism is one of the traditions that was handed down, but not recorded in the Scriptures. Jesus handed it down to His disciples as one of the unwritten events (John 21:25) for the disciples to practice and hand on to their successors. It was passed down as a tradition carried out by the disciples as instructions on how to baptize infants.Infant baptism is a tradition and practice of the early Church that is just as valid then, now and will be forever.



Pax Christi


"because he has looked upon the humiliation of his servant. Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed' ---Luke 1:48

Unlike you, I will not put the eternal fate of my soul in the hands of what other people think.

What you gave me was the Catholic organization's private interpretation and its interpretation is not perfect, without flaw or error.

There is one body/church Eph 4:5 that Christ's established and is the head of and as far as I am concerned it is not Catholicism. I understand that Catholics view non-Catholics as "Protestants". I view Catholicism as a denomination no different than Baptists, Methodists, , etc. Catholicism has been around a little longer than other denominations but all are man-made denominations following made made doctrines with no connection to Acts 2 when the one church of Christ began. You can call me "Protestant" as long as it is understood that I disagree with Protestantism and much as I do with Catholicism for both have doctrinal error.

......and no, Catholics did not give me the bible.


Infants are not, cannot be believers today no more than they could be believers back in the first century. Infants do not have the cognitive, language skills to be believers to qualify for baptism nor do they have any sin to be remitted of in baptism. Nothing has changed, no new circumstances. Infant baptism could not be handed down from that first century church when it did not practice infant baptism itself...it cannot pass down something it did not practice or teach.

I am curious for the talk has been about INFANT baptism.

A supposed proof text for original sin is Psa 51:5 where David speaks about his being conceived. Psa 58:3 says "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

So Psa 51 speaks of conception and Psa 58 speaks of birth. Conception and birth are two distinct points separated by about 9 months.

Is one is a sinner at conception or at birth?

If you say at conception:

1) how do you explain Psa 58 that says one goes astray as soon as they are born?

2) at conception you just have a fertilized egg so how do you baptized that thing? If it dies without baptism, will be lost?

3) a fertilized egg or zygote (sperm meets egg creating a single cell) is an undeveloped human being (human life) without a brain. How can it have belief when it has no brain to believe with?

 

[Jeff_56]

does anyone realize it doesn't matter to anyone here - it can't make any difference - it doesn't change the fact that
everyone born or not, alive or dead, breathing or not breathing,

would never get to heaven without Yahshua's Faithfulness and Blood, Yahweh's Plan (of Salvation),

regardless of how good and righteous they or their parents or their family were !?

no one's ideas nor anyone's opinions will change whether or not an unborn or born one gets to be or to go or to live in heaven. no one's opinion or thought on this matters except Yahweh's.

and since He has the best and only thoughts that matter..... listen to Him.... (and test everyone else -- if they agree with scripture AND with the Spirit of Yahweh, good. if not, sorry)

 

[Jeff_56]

p.s. the believers (Jewish and gentile ekklesia) believe that when and if a life starts in the womb of a believing wife (and with her husband) , it is totally and completely a gift by Yahweh's will from Him.

it is never by chance or fate or 'destiny' as if unplanned by Yahweh or not given specially by Him.

the children in unbelievers are not sanctified nor consecrated, not set apart to Him, unless He chooses to, of course, (and may be as an answer to prayer, Yahweh Willing).

 

[mailmandan]

You posted "So you see no difference between believing in our head and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead? (Romans 10:9). With the heart one believes unto righteousness.. (Romans 10:10)."

So you still don’t understand the difference between believing in our head that God raised Him from the dead “I believe/acknowledge that it happened” (even the demons believe this) and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead “I believe/trust in what happened to save me.” You still just don’t get it?

Wait a minute, you have changed what you are saying. Before I do not remember you saying anything about "believing unto righteousness" for that is a work not a mental assent of the mind. That context also puts confessing with the mouth before salvation which is another work that must be done before one can be saved.

I have quoted “believes unto righteousness” (Romans 10:10) numerous times to you in various posts and you do not remember? Are you kidding me or just playing games? Believing and confessing are not works that merit our salvation. I have explained this to you numerous times as well. I feel like I’m talking to the wall! Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead not as two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead is not unto righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that when added to a list of other steps get us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation.

Rom 10:10--------believe unto righteousness

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness. The truth is crystal clear here IF the blinders have been removed (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

Rom 6:16---------obedience unto righteousness[/QUOTE] I’ve already explained this numerous times to you as well but I see that the truth continues to go right over your head. Read the ENTIRE verse. Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? You continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow and are produced out of faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. "Saved by works" is what your itching ears so desperately want to hear and is the only thing that the natural man can understand. There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16), we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Since there is just one way to be saved/made righteous then belief is obeying and not just a mental activity.

Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience (Romans 10:16) but belief is not defined as multiple acts of obedience/works which are produced out of faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I confused “belief/faith" "with works of obedience which are produced out of belief/faith" as well. Faith is believing. Obedience which follows is works. You still cannot grasp the difference. Saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. Notice in Ephesians 2:8,9 how Paul makes a distinction between FAITH and WORKS.

Believing is DOING righteousness and he that continues to not do righteousness (as believing) continues to not be of God, 1 Jn 3:10.

FALSE. Believing IN HIM is trusting in Christ for salvation. That's believing in our heart. DOING righteousness as a result of believing IN HIM is WORKS and we are NOT saved by good works, but saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Children of the devil practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10). Children of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). Are you ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL? I hope and pray that you will. Your salvation depends on it.

Jn 6:27-29 Jesus calls belief a work...and it is a work of righteousness and not just mental assent of the mind

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works (plural) of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” By believing in Him, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption) and not our works. Jesus is answering their question and is not simply saying that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Notice that Jesus said believe in Him, not accomplish a list of works, like the people in verse 28 expected to hear.

 

[ken]

If you will go to Matthew Chapter 17 and verse 21 in the NIV Version of the Bible you will find that verse is not there, it was not the Catholic Church that removed it. Martin Luther wrote the word "Alone" in Romans 3:28 and said if anyone say's anything about it tell them Martin Luther will have it so. Luther hated the book of James and said it was unworthy to remain in scripture and said he would like to throw old jimmy into the furnace and it was a book of straw. Luther said the Books of Revelations was foolish. There were seven chapters of the Book of Esther removed and 66 verses of the 3rd Chapter of Daniel removed not by the Catholic Church. Of course you might call the Seven Books that were removed Apocrypha but that is another subject of debate. Of course the Catholics say you removed the Seven Books and the Non-Catholics say the Catholics added them. I think it is interesting to not that the original 1611 King James Version has the Seven Books in that first King James Bible. The Bible came out of the Church, in the council of Carthage in 397 the Catholic Church settled which books were to be in the New Testament as we have it today. The first book of the Bible was not even penned until many years after Jesus left, then it was well over 1,000 years before the printing press was invented. The complete Bibles which were very few were penned by Catholic Monks by hand that took lifetimes, and when there was a completed Bible they Were Chained up in the Church, but not to stop people from getting to the word of God, but to protect the Word of God from being stolen or lost so people would always have the word of God. anyway, I will stop at this point.. hope to see you in the yousing room, that is fun.

 

[simplytruth]

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).


Here we see historical evidence for infant baptism. If the Apostles thought it was ok I think it's ok aswell!

Irenaeus

"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment34 [A.D. 190]).

Hippolytus

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

John Chrysostom

"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).



Augustine

"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

"Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

"By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).

this is what the apostle teaches...when the babies repent they will be baptised....
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[SeaBass]

So you still don’t understand the difference between believing in our head that God raised Him from the dead “I believe/acknowledge that it happened” (even the demons believe this) and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead “I believe/trust in what happened to save me.” You still just don’t get it?

I have quoted “believes unto righteousness” (Romans 10:10) numerous times to you in various posts and you do not remember? Are you kidding me or just playing games? Believing and confessing are not works that merit our salvation. I have explained this to you numerous times as well. I feel like I’m talking to the wall! Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead not as two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead is not unto righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that when added to a list of other steps get us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation.



Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness. The truth is crystal clear here IF the blinders have been removed (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

Rom 6:16---------obedience unto righteousness I’ve already explained this numerous times to you as well but I see that the truth continues to go right over your head. Read the ENTIRE verse. Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? You continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow and are produced out of faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. "Saved by works" is what your itching ears so desperately want to hear and is the only thing that the natural man can understand. There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16), we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Choosing to believe the gospel is an act of obedience (Romans 10:16) but belief is not defined as multiple acts of obedience/works which are produced out of faith. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I confused “belief/faith" "with works of obedience which are produced out of belief/faith" as well. Faith is believing. Obedience which follows is works. You still cannot grasp the difference. Saved through FAITH, NOT WORKS. Notice in Ephesians 2:8,9 how Paul makes a distinction between FAITH and WORKS.

FALSE. Believing IN HIM is trusting in Christ for salvation. That's believing in our heart. DOING righteousness as a result of believing IN HIM is WORKS and we are NOT saved by good works, but saved FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Children of the devil practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10). Children of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). Are you ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL? I hope and pray that you will. Your salvation depends on it.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works (plural) of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” By believing in Him, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption) and not our works. Jesus is answering their question and is not simply saying that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Notice that Jesus said believe in Him, not accomplish a list of works, like the people in verse 28 expected to hear.

There is a difference between mental acknowledgement of facts (belief only) and an obedient belief. Nowhere does the bible teach a simple acknowledgment of facts saves....

Obedient belief
belief>>>>>>>>>saves
repentance>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>saves
baptism>>>>>>>>saves

Belief includes repentance, confession and baptism and again, nowhere does the bible define a saving belief as mental acknowledgement of facts and nothing more.

James 2:19 the devils believe and tremble. The devils belief is not an obedient belief for they will not repent confess and be baptized. They have a belief only, just acknowledgment of facts. All belief only can do for a person is put his belief on par with the devils belief.

1 Cor 12:3 does not teach one must have direct operation of the HS to know that Jesus is Lord. The HS is the author of the word of God, the bible and without this inspired written information it would be impossible for one to know Jesus is Lord. The HS therefore "illuminates" one's understanding through His word and not miraculously, directly from His word. In Acts 8 with the eunuch, the Spirit did not 'illuminate" the understanding of the eunuch miraculously, directly upon his heart but sent Phillip to preach words unto him.

Rom 10:9,10 show that BOTH belief AND confession (both obedient works) are necessary to be saved killing once again the idea that belief alone can save for belief without confession puts one's belief on par with the devil's belief who also will not confess Christ. Both belief and confession ar works that do not merit salvation but are conditions God has placed upon His free gift of salvation. I dedicated an entire thread giving biblical example and biblical example of God's grace requiring works but those obedient works earned nothing. Faith only advocated still are closing their eyes and ears to this simple truth.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

Rom 6:16 Paul says one obeys unto righteousness....no obeying = not righteousness. Paul could not make it any more clear that you cannot be righteous unless you obey.

You are either a servant of sin unto death

or

a servant of obedience unto righteousness.

Your faith only theology has ruled you out as being a servant of obedience unto righteousness. Faith only leaves one serving sin unto death just exactly as the belief only of the devils. You keep hi-liting the word "servant" but that does not change anything. Again, your faith only theology prevents you from being a SERVANT of obedience for you have already erred many times over in claiming if one obeys to be righteous/saved then he is trying to merit his salvation. In verses 17-18 the order Paul put was obeying from heart THEN being freed from sin and NOT one is freed from sin THEN obeys from the heart.

YOU posted " When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16), we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

You have been caught red handed AGAIN rewriting the passage. You err by saying faith only saves and the phrase "faith only" does not even appear in the context. Paul did not say those Roman had "belief only" in the finish work of Christ then they became servants of righteousness. Paul did say they OBEYED OBEYED OBEYED OBEYED OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine then they were freed from sin/servants of righteousness. You impossibly try to make one a servant of righteousness BEFORE he even does any righteousness. Belief only is NOT doing righteousness so one cannot be a servant of righteousness when he has never done any righteousness. So please quit butchering and rewriting the passage to force it to fit your man-made theology, it's getting old.

Jn 6:27-29 the people asked what they must Do they we might WORK the works of God.

Jesus gave the the work of believing to do.
Faith only advocates would have answered by telling them do not works else you be trying to merit everlasting life. Further proof of the error of belief only.

Why did Jesus NOT say "This is the work of God, that ye believe ONLY on him whom he hath sent."?
Because belief without works is dead, belief only is not a work James 2:17,20, it's just a mental assent of the mind. So belief is a work just as Jesus called it a work.


Again, if Eph 2:9 eliminates ALL works from salvation then verse 9 contradicts/ and elminates verse 10 that requires a Christian do works. One cannot be saved without being a Christian and one cannot be a Christian yet do no good works thereby making those works a necessary part of being saved.. Eph 2:9 and Rom 4:5 must be the most abused, mishandled verses by faith only advocates.

You post "Believing IN HIM is trusting in Christ for salvation. That's believing in our heart."

If "trusting" does not involve DOING what Christ said to do (LK 6:46) then you have nothing here but a mental assent of the mind, a dead belief only just as the devils who also do not do what Christ said to do.

 

[mailmandan]

PART 1

There is a difference between mental acknowledgement of facts (belief only) and an obedient belief. Nowhere does the bible teach a simple acknowledgment of facts saves....

I've already explained this to you numerous times, but unfortunately the truth continues to go right over your head. Belief/trust/reliance in Christ from the heart saves and not simply mental acknowledgment of facts about Christ. The word "believe" can describe "mere mental assent belief," as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance in Christ for salvation," as in (Acts 16:31). In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. This explains the lack of obedience to Christ as a result of their mere "mental assent" belief which falls short of saving belief in Christ. Obedience flows from saving belief in Christ and not the other way around. You continue to put the cart before the horse/works salvation.

Obedient belief

Saving belief in Christ results in producing obedience/works. Obedience/works is produced from saving faith and not the other way around. Saved through believing/trusting in Him for salvation which if followed by obedience/works. You have it backwards because you believe in salvation by works.

belief>>>>>>>>>saves

Yes it does (John 3:16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4 etc..).

repentance>>>>>>saves

Repentance saves because repentance is a change of mind that results in the new direction of saving belief in Christ. If you truly repented then you believe and if you truly believe then you already repented. Repentance and belief are inseparable in receiving salvation. You place repent after believe, reversing the scriptural order of repent and believe which explains your confusion. To the contrary we find: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

confession>>>>>>>saves

Belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. *Notice that believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation which are chronologically together are BEFORE water baptism. According to your erroneous 4 step plan of salvation, it's believe (still lost) repent (still lost) confess (still lost) water baptized (finally saved). So according to your doctrine, belief, repentance and confession don’t really save, they merely lead up to what saves, which you would say is baptism. How can one who with the heart believes unto righteousness and confession is made unto salvation be saved if he still needs to get water baptized to be saved? *Your watered down gospel is certainly not in harmony with Romans 10:9,10.

baptism>>>>>>>>saves

- not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ark for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Belief includes repentance, confession and baptism and again, nowhere does the bible define a saving belief as mental acknowledgement of facts and nothing more.

Repentance already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe in Christ for salvation (Acts 20:21). The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER (Romans 10:8) so confession is not excluded from saving belief, but belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation, they are chronologically together. It's not believe unto righteousness today then confession if finally made unto salvation next week. Belief does not include water baptism, which follows saving belief in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). You can repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED, (as we see in Acts 10:43-47 and elsewhere)so belief is not baptism and belief precedes baptism and we are saved through believing/trusting/relying exclusively in Him as the all sufficient means of our salvation. If we believe/trust/rely in "water and works" to save us, then we DON’T believe IN HIM, but in water and works.

 

[mailmandan]

PART 2

James 2:19 the devils believe and tremble. The devils belief is not an obedient belief for they will not repent confess and be baptized. They have a belief only, just acknowledgment of facts. All belief only can do for a person is put his belief on par with the devils belief.

The devils believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. The devils refuse to repent so they will not believe unto righteousness/confess unto salvation or get water baptized. They have mere "mental assent" belief which falls short of saving belief in Christ.

1 Cor 12:3 does not teach one must have direct operation of the HS to know that Jesus is Lord. The HS is the author of the word of God, the bible and without this inspired written information it would be impossible for one to know Jesus is Lord. The HS therefore "illuminates" one's understanding through His word and not miraculously, directly from His word. In Acts 8 with the eunuch, the Spirit did not 'illuminate" the understanding of the eunuch miraculously, directly upon his heart but sent Phillip to preach words unto him.

Again, there is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. Why do you think that Paul said no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:3? You seem to think that the only thing involved in coming to saving faith in Christ is paper, ink and human intelligence. How do you think that the Holy Spirit "illuminates" one's understanding through His word? "For our gospel came not unto you IN WORD ONLY, but also in POWER, and in THE HOLY SPIRIT (1 Thessalonians 1:5). "Lydia . . . whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul” (Acts 16:14). If there is no additional work, or influence, of the Holy Spirit, then this last verse, which says the Lord "opened her heart," is superfluous. Obviously, while the WORD is the means of communicating that which is to be believed, the additional unseen work of the Holy Spirit is necessary for being "born from above." Paul referred to his preaching as being "in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (I Corinthians 2:4). Is this not why, as so many have observed, Campbellite preaching is so dead, so staccato, and relies so heavily upon faulty human "logic" and "legalism?" The only explanation of this barren spirituality is the absence of the Holy Spirit. This likewise explains their lack of a proper understanding of the Word of God (I Corinthians 2:14).

Rom 10:9,10 show that BOTH belief AND confession (both obedient works) are necessary to be saved killing once again the idea that belief alone can save for belief without confession puts one's belief on par with the devil's belief who also will not confess Christ.

Belief and confession are not simply a set of obedience works in a series of obedience works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Faith in CHRIST ALONE for salvation is not killed off by your misunderstanding of believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation, which are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Your belief is on par with the devil's belief because you do not believe/entrust your spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation either and no amount of self reformation or lip service confession or being dunked in H20 will change that. The word of faith is in our MOUTH and in our HEART (Romans 10:8). Confession comes from belief in our heart (together) as an expression of saving belief in Christ, not as an additional requirement to become saved sometime later, after we believe.

Both belief and confession ar works that do not merit salvation but are conditions God has placed upon His free gift of salvation.

How are they works, as in “not of works”, not by works of righteousness which we have done”, or “not according to our works? "Both belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). You turn belief and confession into salvation by works by the time you package them into your erroneous 4 step plan of salvation.

I dedicated an entire thread giving biblical example and biblical example of God's grace requiring works but those obedient works earned nothing.

Your argument is an OXYMORON. We are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Faith only advocated still are closing their eyes and ears to this simple truth.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

Your flawed arguments have already been refuted many times. Works salvationists are closing their eyes and ears to the simple truth of the gospel of Christ which is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Rom 6:16 Paul says one obeys unto righteousness....no obeying = not righteousness. Paul could not make it any more clear that you cannot be righteous unless you obey.

You continue to read this verse through the lens of "works salvation." Read the entire verse and quit isolating ONLY the words that you WANT to hear. Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Verse 18 says - Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. You have it backwards. We don’t accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE we are righteous. What does one obey in order to become a servant of righteousness? Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?” We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:10 - with the heart one believes unto righteousness. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.

You are either a servant of sin unto death

Unbeliever = servant of sin unto death.

or a servant of obedience unto righteousness.

We become a servant of obedience unto righteousness when we believe unto righteousness (Romans 4:5; 10:10). That is the starting point of becoming a "servant of obedience" and no longer a servant of sin. Good works then FOLLOW as a result of being a servant of obedience.

Your faith only theology has ruled you out as being a servant of obedience unto righteousness.

Not at all and I don't teach "faith only" - per James - "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that you confuse with faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation and not in works (Ephesians 2:8,9). We become servants of obedience unto righteousness at the moment we believe unto righteousness. We don't perform multiples acts of obedience/works in order to become a servant of obedience unto righteousness, but BECAUSE we have become servants of obedience when we believed the gospel. Your cart before the horse/salvation by works theology is getting old.

Faith only leaves one serving sin unto death just exactly as the belief only of the devils.

"Faith only" - per James leaves one serving sin unto death because that is not genuine faith (that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and has been made alive in Christ - Ephesians 2:8-10) but is an empty profession of faith faith that ONLY claims to be genuine but demonstrates by the lack of producing works that it's dead (James 2:14-24). Simple!

 

[mailmandan]

PART 3 END

You keep hi-liting the word "servant" but that does not change anything.

It changes everything! We are either servants of sin unto death or servants of obedience unto righteousness. At what point do we become a servant of obedience? The moment that we believe unto righteousness/faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 10:10; 4:5). Not later, after we accomplish multiples acts of obedience/works (salvation by works) as you believe.

Again, your faith only theology prevents you from being a SERVANT of obedience for you have already erred many times over in claiming if one obeys to be righteous/saved then he is trying to merit his salvation. In verses 17-18 the order Paul put was obeying from heart THEN being freed from sin and NOT one is freed from sin THEN obeys from the heart.

You can’t even be a servant of obedience until you have been saved through faith. Unbelievers are not servants of obedience. Your misunderstanding of what James means by "faith only" (dead faith that only claims to be genuine) and what Paul means by saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS (FAITH IN CHRIST RIGHTLY UNDERSTOOD ALONE) keeps you confused. Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel does not merit salvation because through believing the gospel, we are trusting exclusively in Another’s work (Christ’s finished work of redemption). Christ gets 100% merit for our salvation. Believers are simply receiving the free gift through faith and are not trying to "add their works" to receiving the free gift, as you are. You are trying to merit your salvation (at least in part) and you don’t even realize it.

YOU posted " When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16), we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Amen! BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 10:10); But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).

You have been caught red handed AGAIN rewriting the passage. You err by saying faith only saves and the phrase "faith only" does not even appear in the context.

I did not rewrite anything. Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone (not faith in works) saves (Ephesians 2:8,9). That does not equate to what James means by “faith only” - claims to have faith but has no works. That is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith/dead faith. James is discussing the proof of faith (James 2:18, 21) not the initial act of being accounted as righteous before God (Romans 4:2-3).

Paul did not say those Roman had "belief only" in the finish work of Christ then they became servants of righteousness. Paul did say they OBEYED OBEYED OBEYED OBEYED OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine then they were freed from sin/servants of righteousness.

You simply write a blank check with the word OBEYED and fill in the amount of works that you feel needs to be obeyed to become a servant of righteousness, which equates to salvation by works by the time that you finish. Paul did say they did not OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY OBEY the gospel by refusing to BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE the gospel in Romans 10:16. Choosing to BELIEVE the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. So they OBEYED THE GOSPEL/THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE when they BELIEVED THE GOSPEL/BELIEVES UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS/BELIEVES ON HIM/FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS and were freed from sin and became servants of righteousness BEFORE they performed any further acts of obedience/works.

You impossibly try to make one a servant of righteousness BEFORE he even does any righteousness.

How can an unrighteous person do any righteousness? One must first become righteous THROUGH FAITH (Romans 4:5) before he can perform works of righteousness. You impossibly try to make one a servant of righteousness while he is still a servant of sin.

Belief only is NOT doing righteousness so one cannot be a servant of righteousness when he has never done any righteousness.

One must BECOME a servant of righteousness THROUGH FAITH before he can do works of righteousness. You have it backwards. Also, Paul made it very clear that we are NOT SAVED BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE - Titus 3:5.

So please quit butchering and rewriting the passage to force it to fit your man-made theology, it's getting old.

It’s actually you who butchers and rewrites the passage to force it to fit your man-made theology of salvation by works. You also distort and perverts passages of scripture in an effort to “patch together” your "works based" false gospel and it's getting very old.

Jn 6:27-29 the people asked what they must Do they we might WORK the works of God.

And Jesus corrected them and did not give them a list of works to accomplish in order for them to merit eternal life. Instead He said BELIEVE IN HIM.

Jesus gave the the work of believing to do.

This is the work of God that you BELIEVE in Him.. Not this is the list of works that you must do to be saved, which equates to does work “instead of does not work” and does not believe in Him "instead of BELIEVES IN HIM" (Romans 4:5).

Faith only advocates would have answered by telling them do not works else you be trying to merit everlasting life. Further proof of the error of belief only.

Works salvation advocates would have given a different answer than what Jesus gave in John 6:29. They said work the works (plural) of God in verse 28 and Jesus corrected them in verse 29. Further proof of the error of salvation by works. When will you BELIEVE?

Why did Jesus NOT say "This is the work of God, that ye believe ONLY on him whom he hath sent."?

The word BELIEVE is the ONLY word that Jesus mentioned in vs. 29. Why did Jesus NOT say believe + an additional list of works? Think about it.

Because belief without works is dead, belief only is not a work James 2:17,20, it's just a mental assent of the mind. So belief is a work just as Jesus called it a work.

Faith that does not produce works demonstrates that it's dead. Claims to have faith but has no works. That is James' point in chapter 2. James is not advocating salvation by works but that genuine faith is evidenced by works. I will show you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Belief is not a work by which we merit eternal life. Through belief in Christ, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Multiple acts of obedience which follow are works and we are not saved by works, but through faith. Will you ever swallow your PRIDE and come to accept the truth?