Legalism empowers DEMONS in your life!

[sparty-g]

Well at no time have I suggested the Old Testament does not point to the godliness we have in a life lived in the Spirit, for example we would not see the true condition of the flesh without the witness of the law, we would not see the need and truth of the Cross if we did not see that the law condemns us to death and in the truth of the gospel we have been crucified with the Lord. Many types and shadows of Christ can be seen in the law, and especially the prophets. We see Christ in every article of the temple, we see Christ as the bronze serpent, we see Christ as the Promised land of Israel...we see Him as the Manna and as the rock that poured forth water...etc... I could go on and on.

And on the issue of the "letter" that is best described as the legal dogma that was written that demands obedience of the flesh, for instance the legal dogma of circumcision demands a physical act of the flesh, in the "spirit" it is a cutting away by the Holy Spirit of the flesh upon the heart.

The Sabbath is a temporal day that must be observed according to the flesh, the true rest of God is to cease from ones own works and enter into a eternal righteousness and rest in Christ.

Thou shalt not covet...The flesh will always lust, but in the Spirit the love of God rules the heart and we no longer look to what others have but what we have in Christ...we don't look to take but to give...

Does this help you see the difference?

It helps some, thank you. Some more questions for you: Is it legalism for me to point to the command found in the Torah-Law that says "do not murder" as part of the evidence for when I'm trying to explain to someone else why I do not murder? Is it proper or improper for me to tell someone: "I do not murder because the command of God spoken through the Torah-Law says to not do it and the Holy Spirit is in agreement that murdering someone would not fulfill the duty to love our neighbors as ourselves, which has transformed me and placed on my heart the desire to love others, which precludes murdering them." I understand your emphasis on leaning on the Holy Spirit's shedding of love on our hearts for your guidance, which I agree with, but if the Torah-Law identifies sin, why can't I point to the command "Do not murder" and say, "That's not how I live!" I'm not saying the Torah-Law is the source of my empowerment to not murder, that is certainly only through having a covenantal relationship with God through faith in the Messiah and by the power of the Holy Spirit, but the Torah-Law provides a standard of godliness. We can never live up to that standard on our own, for sure, but does this mean the standard is to be rejected? I don't think so. Actually, I think our standard should be the Messiah, but this indirectly points to and includes the Torah-Law since the Messiah is the Word made flesh and His life is in agreement with what the Torah-Law commands (i.e., He never sinned, He did not break the commands of the Torah-Law, and in many ways He expounded upon the Torah-Law to give it new life and meaning, so this is how I should strive to live, as well).

I always find it perplexing how some will quote Paul to say that one of the Torah-Law's only purpose now is to condemn the world's sinners who are living outside of a covenantal relationship with God (i.e., they are not believers). Take the issue of eating unclean meats. This is included in the Torah-Law as sin and, by this logic, it must be part of the Torah-Law package this is being used to condemn the world's sinners. But then we say that once someone confesses faith in the Messiah, it is alright to eat unclean meats. How can something that was once used to condemn people then become acceptable to them? Huh? How is this any different from taking another part of the Torah-Law package used to condemn sinners, like the command "do not commit adultery" to condemn the world's adulterers, but then later saying it's alright for them to commit adultery after coming to faith in the Messiah? Personally, I do not eat unclean meats. This position might make me very unpopular on this board, so I appreciate your grace in dealing with a brother in faith. The Torah-Law says not to eat them. More importantly, my Messiah did not eat them. He's my standard as no sin was found in Him. If He had eaten unclean meats, sin would have been found in Him. But He followed God's standard, empowered by the Spirit of God, and I follow Him, empowered by the Holy Spirit.

 

[sparty-g]

What I picked up from this thread is that people think to be obedient to God's word makes you legalistic.

After reading through this thread, I would say some and not all people. There's quite a diverse group here, which means lots to potentially learn from one another. As far as the Scriptures are concerned, it seems some people include the Torah-Law in their obedience, others limit Torah-Law inclusion to only the Ten Commandments, and others only look to what is repeated in the NT writings. There are probably even more types of people here of all different shades! Personally, I fall into the first category. The Messiah is my example and I strive to live like Him. Some may call me legalistic. I don't agree. I call myself a disciple of the Messiah. How can it be legalistic to follow in His footsteps and walk as He walked?

 

[Mitspa]

It helps some, thank you. Some more questions for you: Is it legalism for me to point to the command found in the Torah-Law that says "do not murder" as part of the evidence for when I'm trying to explain to someone else why I do not murder? Is it proper or improper for me to tell someone: "I do not murder because the command of God spoken through the Torah-Law says to not do it and the Holy Spirit is in agreement that murdering someone would not fulfill the duty to love our neighbors as ourselves, which has transformed me and placed on my heart the desire to love others, which precludes murdering them." I understand your emphasis on leaning on the Holy Spirit's shedding of love on our hearts for your guidance, which I agree with, but if the Torah-Law identifies sin, why can't I point to the command "Do not murder" and say, "That's not how I live!" I'm not saying the Torah-Law is the source of my empowerment to not murder, that is certainly only through having a covenantal relationship with God through faith in the Messiah and by the power of the Holy Spirit, but the Torah-Law provides a standard of godliness. We can never live up to that standard on our own, for sure, but does this mean the standard is to be rejected? I don't think so. Actually, I think our standard should be the Messiah, but this indirectly points to and includes the Torah-Law since the Messiah is the Word made flesh and His life is in agreement with what the Torah-Law commands (i.e., He never sinned, He did not break the commands of the Torah-Law, and in many ways He expounded upon the Torah-Law to give it new life and meaning, so this is how I should strive to live, as well).

I always find it perplexing how some will quote Paul to say that one of the Torah-Law's only purpose now is to condemn the world's sinners who are living outside of a covenantal relationship with God (i.e., they are not believers). Take the issue of eating unclean meats. This is included in the Torah-Law as sin and, by this logic, it must be part of the Torah-Law package this is being used to condemn the world's sinners. But then we say that once someone confesses faith in the Messiah, it is alright to eat unclean meats. How can something that was once used to condemn people then become acceptable to them? Huh? How is this any different from taking another part of the Torah-Law package used to condemn sinners, like the command "do not commit adultery" to condemn the world's adulterers, but then later saying it's alright for them to commit adultery after coming to faith in the Messiah? Personally, I do not eat unclean meats. This position might make me very unpopular on this board, so I appreciate your grace in dealing with a brother in faith. The Torah-Law says not to eat them. More importantly, my Messiah did not eat them. He's my standard as no sin was found in Him. If He had eaten unclean meats, sin would have been found in Him. But He followed God's standard, empowered by the Spirit of God, and I follow Him, empowered by the Holy Spirit.

As a Christian explaining the commandment not to murder, you should understand that we are under the law to love...As Christians I think we should move past the point where we don't kill people and where we love people right? Also the purpose of that commandment and all the law together is to make us all guilty that we come to be justified by faith in Christ and love as He commanded... Its also written that if we hate, we are the same as a murderer. So thou shalt not murder was to bring you and me to love...and its a good witness to love and our need for Christ. Its right to use the law for is purpose and as a witness to Gods righteousness....but its wrong to lay the yoke of legalism on a believer in Christ.

Do you understand that believer is not under the law of Moses? But under the law of Christ to love?

 

[Mitspa]

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, after He was baptized, was it legalism that compelled Him to quote Deuteronomy 3 times (part of the law) as He fought against the temptations of Satan?

No it was His love and His mission to save mankind from the law of sin and death, that caused Him to do what He did... and no one is saying the law is not a witness to Christ and Gods righteousness in Him. The law spoke of Him... He did not defeat the devil by legalism, He defeated the devil by faith and love.

 

[royalscot]

It helps some, thank you. Some more questions for you: Is it legalism for me to point to the command found in the Torah-Law that says "do not murder" as part of the evidence for when I'm trying to explain to someone else why I do not murder? Is it proper or improper for me to tell someone: "I do not murder because the command of God spoken through the Torah-Law says to not do it and the Holy Spirit is in agreement that murdering someone would not fulfill the duty to love our neighbors as ourselves, which has transformed me and placed on my heart the desire to love others, which precludes murdering them." I understand your emphasis on leaning on the Holy Spirit's shedding of love on our hearts for your guidance, which I agree with, but if the Torah-Law identifies sin, why can't I point to the command "Do not murder" and say, "That's not how I live!" I'm not saying the Torah-Law is the source of my empowerment to not murder, that is certainly only through having a covenantal relationship with God through faith in the Messiah and by the power of the Holy Spirit, but the Torah-Law provides a standard of godliness. We can never live up to that standard on our own, for sure, but does this mean the standard is to be rejected? I don't think so. Actually, I think our standard should be the Messiah, but this indirectly points to and includes the Torah-Law since the Messiah is the Word made flesh and His life is in agreement with what the Torah-Law commands (i.e., He never sinned, He did not break the commands of the Torah-Law, and in many ways He expounded upon the Torah-Law to give it new life and meaning, so this is how I should strive to live, as well).

I always find it perplexing how some will quote Paul to say that one of the Torah-Law's only purpose now is to condemn the world's sinners who are living outside of a covenantal relationship with God (i.e., they are not believers). Take the issue of eating unclean meats. This is included in the Torah-Law as sin and, by this logic, it must be part of the Torah-Law package this is being used to condemn the world's sinners. But then we say that once someone confesses faith in the Messiah, it is alright to eat unclean meats. How can something that was once used to condemn people then become acceptable to them? Huh? How is this any different from taking another part of the Torah-Law package used to condemn sinners, like the command "do not commit adultery" to condemn the world's adulterers, but then later saying it's alright for them to commit adultery after coming to faith in the Messiah? Personally, I do not eat unclean meats. This position might make me very unpopular on this board, so I appreciate your grace in dealing with a brother in faith. The Torah-Law says not to eat them. More importantly, my Messiah did not eat them. He's my standard as no sin was found in Him. If He had eaten unclean meats, sin would have been found in Him. But He followed God's standard, empowered by the Spirit of God, and I follow Him, empowered by the Holy Spirit.

by reading these scripture you will see. what change was made with the gift of the holy spirit. to jewish and to the gentile(the rest of the world that believe in jesus)
a new covenant was in place after a certain time frame,ie jesus has already, conquered death, and now back in heaven.
2 acts,(all jewish here, about 32ad) acts 10,(peter call no man unclean, gentile) acts 15(48 ad),what law to give a gentile, to Galatians.
to believe in jesus christ is the important point. the rest is debate going on about how grace a gift, against grace they have rebuilt law in to this gift. so would be putting jesus back on the cross,
how did the law still affect a jew, and what law was given to a gentile. at these point in time. to 70 ad no temple of stone. etc

6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3

 

[royalscot]

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, after He was baptized, was it legalism that compelled Him to quote Deuteronomy 3 times (part of the law) as He fought against the temptations of Satan?

was the gospels in print, was the letters of paul, peter , and the rest, wrote yet. some proof is needed. yet acts 15 is still there, at a different point in time.

 

[sparty-g]

Just a sincere question. In your view, if a person loves God and their neighbour, do they then need to concentrate on the literal words of commandments to obey them and show that love, or by simply loving God and others will they obey God's commands without having to refer to them?

Hi Michael (if that's your name). I hope you don't mind me jumping in and answering a question intended for another. I think this is part of the problem we have today, which has resulted in 30,000+ denominations and doctrines all over the board with regards to how a believer is to live their life. I believe the Scriptures (including the OT commands) were given to us, as the Word and Revelation of God Himself, to be a reference and guide. Moreover, I believe the Messiah's life is the example we are to follow. The Holy Spirit should not be in disagreement with any of these things, but people shouldn't just trust whatever feelings they have. We are to test the spirits and doctrines presented before us, and I believe we need to test them against the Word (including the OT commands) and the example of the Messiah, in whom no sin was found. Without the this solid foundation, the body of believers is going to be tossed every which way based on their feelings.

The reason I asked the question is this

My mother, who I loved dearly was diagnosed as terminally ill with cancer. My wife and I went to look after her in her own home for three months of her illness. During this time I lived closer to the biblical ideal than I had ever previously lived. I put aside my own wants and desires for my mother. I did not covet what was hers, I honoured her, I did not steal from her, want to murder her, bear false witness against her, etc. Did I have to think of any of the Ten Commandments to act that way towards her? No! I never once gave them a thought, it was because I loved my mother greatly.

So in that instance, the law if you like God wanted me to follow where my mother was concerned was simply kept because I loved her, I never had to think of the literal letter at all

I appreciate you sharing your story and I empathize with you having myself years back gone through the experience of a mother diagnosed with breast cancer. I sincerely hope God strengthened you and your family in that experience. To get to your question, I believe our spiritual inclinations in different situations can certainly align with God's will for us. In fact, we could say the same thing for believers and non-believers worldwide that they will, at times, express God's will for us. But this isn't always the case. For example, the atheist or non-theist can honor their parents, give to the poor, etc. Others will murder, steal, etc. In the same way, even believers can express these Godly attributes without prompting or needing the commands directly in our face, while other believers will continue in sin if there is no proper instruction. Even if we end up expressing God's will, as in the case of you and your mother, I don't believe that means we are to dismiss the commands and not use them as a reference or guide. People are always going to differ in how they understand loving God and loving our neighbors. The Holy Spirit guides and leads us, but our own thoughts/feelings/emotions/etc. get into the mix. Again, just turn to the example of the body of believers: all claim to be going on the leading of the Holy Spirit but they are all turned in different directions. Is the Holy Spirit the author of confusion? I think not. The problem is not the Holy Spirit, it's us. And if we ignore the commands, we might get some of God's will correct, but we may mess up or miss others when there is no proper instruction or testing based on the Word. The "Word" includes the example of the Messiah, who is the Word made flesh, so I always encourage people to look to His life, as well.

Be blessed.

 

[just-me]

No it was His love and His mission to save mankind from the law of sin and death, that caused Him to do what He did... and no one is saying the law is not a witness to Christ and Gods righteousness in Him. The law spoke of Him... He did not defeat the devil by legalism, He defeated the devil by faith and love.

Which is all of the word of God from the beginning. We can defeat Satan in like manner. It is written that man shall not live by bread alone but EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Here are some OT scripture for contemplation.

Deuteronomy 6:3-6
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4 Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Leviticus 19:11-18
11 Ye shall not steal , neither deal falsely , neither lie one to another.
12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

 

[royalscot]

relationship to law is different, that proves that scripture is correct. time and dates are there for a reason.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"---14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

 

[sparty-g]

As a Christian explaining the commandment not to murder, you should understand that we are under the law to love...As Christians I think we should move past the point where we don't kill people and where we love people right? Also the purpose of that commandment and all the law together is to make us all guilty that we come to be justified by faith in Christ and love as He commanded... Its also written that if we hate, we are the same as a murderer. So thou shalt not murder was to bring you and me to love...and its a good witness to love and our need for Christ. Its right to use the law for is purpose and as a witness to Gods righteousness....but its wrong to lay the yoke of legalism on a believer in Christ.

Do you understand that believer is not under the law of Moses? But under the law of Christ to love?

Hi again. Thanks for your always prompt response -- it amazes me, actually. And also, I use "you" quite often in my post, but it's not always you specifically, but an unspecific "you" referring to people in general. So please don't feel like I'm accusing you. I bring nothing but love, even if that means a friendly or passionate debate!

I agree that we should move past the point where we don't kill people simply because it's a command but because we love people. I thought I clearly communicated that in my post but maybe I didn't. But what I'm seeing here is that the "letter" (command) is in agreement with the "spirit" (love). That's a bit unclear, so let me explain using your own logic: "Thou shalt not murder" brings me to love and is a good witness to love and our need for the Messiah. As a result, I love people, and the result of that is I do not murder them. This is not simply because I'm robotically keeping a command, but it definitely is also what the Torah-Law commands. And, as you said, this love goes even further to not want to hate, which would make us the same as a murderer. The Messiah expounds upon this. So how exactly is this legalism?

Here's a practical example of my contention with how the concept of "love" is being used in this discussion: a homosexual can claim they love God and their neighbors, while continuing in their homosexuality, which is clearly a sin. In fact, the pro-homosexual movement within the "church" has co-opted the message of "God is love" as their justification for their lifestyle, all the while claiming how much they love God and their neighbors. In fact, they chastise others as not loving their neighbors since we are denying them of their happiness. But you or I would say that's not true love for God because, if it was, then that person wouldn't commit homosexual acts. But this doesn't work for them because their concept of "love" is different. Personally, I would point them to the clear command God gave us in the Torah-Law and not just a fuzzy concept of "loving God" since they claim that they do love Him! And they also claim to be led by the Holy Spirit! Of course, the NT writings confirm that homosexual acts are sin, but the NT writers didn't just pull this out of a hat. And it wasn't a new revelation of the Holy Spirit. The NT writers' basis for justifying their case is it's found in the Torah-Law, which are God's holy instructions -- they rely on the authority of what God has revealed in the Torah-Law. The Torah-Law exposes, the NT writings uphold it, and the Spirit confirms it: homosexual acts are sin, case closed!

But as soon as we start picking apart the Torah-Law or dismissing it, we begin to lose our ground against them because now it comes down to subjective interpretation of "love" or what they feel the Holy Spirit is telling them. They will also find a way to undermine what the evidence we provide from the NT writings, saying things like: God's love overcomes the condemnation found in homosexual acts, His grace is good enough to forgive the unchanged lifestyle, the NT references are to those not in a loving relationship with God, etc. But they can't deny the straightforward command of God in the Torah-Law. Fortunately for them, they don't need to because they simply agree with the Christians who say the Torah-Law has been fulfilled and that to point them to the "legal code" is legalism!

Please consider this comparison:


The Torah-Law says homosexuality is a sin. It's a reflection of God's will for us not to commit homosexual acts. The command should lead us to love, as you stated, so that we can love Him as He commanded and understand His will. The OT and NT Scriptures confirm this truth, and the Holy Spirit agrees. The end result is that through this all, we do not commit homosexual acts and we live properly as He wants us to do. In this sense, the "Spirit of God" agrees with what's found in the legal code, the Law of Moses (which is really God's Law -- Moses didn't make it up).


So why doesn't this work for eating unclean meats? Like homosexuality, it is also prohibited in the Torah-Law. It is also part of the Law of Moses. In fact, both committing homosexual acts and eating unclean meats are described by God as detestable or abominable, depending on your translation, which I understand is a word not so often used. Why doesn't this command lead us to love, as you stated is true of other commands, so that we can love Him as He commanded and understand His will? Why does one command (homosexuality) make us guilty, as you stated, and reveal our need for a Messiah while the other one doesn't? Surely, the command against eating unclean meats cannot make us feel guilty if it's not a sin. So why is one a sin and not the other? Why is one a command that does all these wonderful things leading us to love, while the other doesn't? And if they both do these things, why is our response different? Why do we, in love, end up refraining from homosexual acts but not from eating unclean meats?


Even if one cites the OT command but isn't consistent in their view of the Torah-Law, the homosexual still has that person beat. They will say, "Yeah, so what? The Law also says don't eat shrimp, and I don't see you keeping that! If one command can be dismissed, so can the other!" I've seen pictures of picket signs as rallies that read, "God hates shrimp," which are intended to show inconsistency within the body of believers. But that tactic doesn't work on me! I tell them I don't eat unclean meats, and their arguments no longer have any legs to stand on. The full counsel of God has spoken on the matter: He has revealed in the Torah-Law through the command given that homosexuality is a sin, the rest of the OT and NT Scriptures confirm this, and the Holy Spirit agrees. Of course, I don't engage people in an argumentative tone because it won't win anyone over to the Messiah, but I lovingly present my case.

As another poster stated, I don't feel that following the Word of God is legalistic. I also don't think it is legalistic to live as the Messiah did. Why shouldn't we walk as our Messiah walked?

 

[Mitspa]

Sparty-g .... Its hard to make a point on all your post because you seem to miss a foundational truth and then build from error to make other points? Love is from the Holy Spirit of God in the believer, it is well defined in scripture and leaves no room for ungodliness such as sexual lust and perversions. Even if a believer attempted to use the term love as an excuse to defile the temple of the Holy Spirit, the scriptures give direct and serious warnings against such defilement...while never putting the believer back under the yoke of the law of Moses. Correction in the New Testament is always based on the Spirit and not the written code of the law. And thank you for your kind words

 

[Mitspa]

Which is all of the word of God from the beginning. We can defeat Satan in like manner. It is written that man shall not live by bread alone but EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Here are some OT scripture for contemplation.

Deuteronomy 6:3-6
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4 Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Leviticus 19:11-18
11 Ye shall not steal , neither deal falsely , neither lie one to another.
12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

See He defeated satan at the Cross and wrote the New Testament in His Blood...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of legal dogma that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

 

[sparty-g]

by reading these scripture you will see. what change was made with the gift of the holy spirit. to jewish and to the gentile(the rest of the world that believe in jesus)
a new covenant was in place after a certain time frame,ie jesus has already, conquered death, and now back in heaven.
2 acts,(all jewish here, about 32ad) acts 10,(peter call no man unclean, gentile) acts 15(48 ad),what law to give a gentile, to Galatians.
to believe in jesus christ is the important point. the rest is debate going on about how grace a gift, against grace they have rebuilt law in to this gift. so would be putting jesus back on the cross,
how did the law still affect a jew, and what law was given to a gentile. at these point in time. to 70 ad no temple of stone. etc

6 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3

Hi, thanks for the input. I agree that the Messiah is the center of our faith. My journey started with Him and continues with Him. I look to how He lived His life, how He walked, and I aim to do the same. Here are some things to consider, friend...

The Messiah righteously accused the Law teachers and Pharisees of setting aside commands of God found in the Torah-Law, now some of us stand on the side of those He accused.

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! -- Mark 7:9 (NIV)

​

They falsely accused Him of breaking the Law (in many places in the gospels) or seeking to change it, now some of us stand on the side of the Messiah's accusers in agreement with them.

For we have heard him [Stephen] say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.” -- Acts 6:14 (NIV)

​

They falsely accused Stephen of speaking against the Torah-Law, now some of us stand on the side of Stephen's accusers in agreement with them.

They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow [Stephen] never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law." -- Acts 6:13 (NIV)

​

They falsely accused Paul of teaching Jews to turn away from Moses and of living in disobedience to the Torah-Law, now some of us stand on the side of Paul's accusers in agreement with them.

They [Jewish believers in Jerusalem] have been informed that you [Paul] teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs." -- Acts 21:21 (NIV)

They [some Jews at the Temple] stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place." -- Acts 21:27b-28a (NIV)

​

And what was Paul's response to these false accusations? At the request of James, Paul makes a public display of his obedience to the Torah-Law.

"What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. -- Acts 21:22-26 (NIV)

​

He defends himself to Felix against the false accusations.

"And they [Paul's accusers] cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. -- Acts 24:13-15 (NIV)

​

He defends himself to Festus against the false accusations.

Then Paul made his defense: “I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.” -- Acts 25:8

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He defends himself to local Jewish leaders in Rome against the false charges.

Three days later he called together the local Jewish leaders. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: “My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans. -- Acts 28:17 (NIV)

​

As for the Scriptures you brought, I've seen these discussed in detail in previous posts on this board, so I'll keep my response short and we can go into further detail, if you like.

Acts 2 -- Sorry, I'm not sure what you want me to look at here. Can you please clarify?

Acts 10 -- Peter's vision is in regards to people only. Specifically, he was to understand from the vision that the Gentiles with the Holy Spirit were to be regarded as clean. There is no lesson about eating unclean meats here. When Peter retells the story twice on different occasions in the following chapters, he never mentions anything about unclean meats. He interprets the vision only with regards to Gentiles, so I'm going to stick with Peter's interpretation and not insert an interpretation that is not presented in the text. A revelation of this magnitude regarding unclean meats would have been monumentally life-changing in the Jewish community, but there's absolute silence on the matter, no one says a peep about it because no one understood any change having occurred.

Acts 15 -- The four commands to the Gentiles are simply a starting point. No one agrees that these are the only four things Christians must keep. The expectation is they would learn more as they grew. The lesson here is that ritual conversion by circumcision is not a requirement for salvation for Gentiles. After their confession of faith, the Holy Spirit cleanses them and they begin their journey from there. There are no works, such as circumcision, that come before salvation. Salvation comes first, obedience comes after.

 

[sparty-g]

Sparty-g .... Its hard to make a point on all your post because you seem to miss a foundational truth and then build from error to make other points? Love is from the Holy Spirit of God in the believer, it is well defined in scripture and leaves no room for ungodliness such as sexual lust and perversions. Even if a believer attempted to use the term love as an excuse to defile the temple of the Holy Spirit, the scriptures give direct and serious warnings against such defilement...while never putting the believer back under the yoke of the law of Moses. Correction in the New Testament is always based on the Spirit and not the written code of the law. And thank you for your kind words

I recognize you're a person of great learning and love, even if we don't agree on things, so I have nothing but respect for you.

I agree: love is from the Holy Spirit of God in the believer and leaves no room for ungodliness such as sexual lust and perversions. I go one step further in saying that this love is in agreement with the commands of the Torah-Law, which reveal God's holiness in contrast to ungodliness. Where is the legalism in that? Also, why are homosexual acts an example of ungodliness while eating unclean meats is not? God revealed both to be sin, calling them both by the same term (detestable or abominable). Why does one carry over to after the cross while the other one does not? Or maybe better worded: why does the Spirit reveal one to be ungodly and not the other? Why can believers today eat unclean meats but not commit homosexual acts?

Regarding your illustration of sexually perverse acts defiling the Temple of the Holy Spirit, sacrificing an unclean animal in the physical Temple would have defiled it, so why are we allowed to put unclean meats in our body, which is now the Temple? You don't see a connection there? I could use your earlier phrasing and say something like: the "letter" says that unclean animals would defile the physical Temple, but the "Spirit" reveals that the body is the true Temple and we aren't to defile it with unclean meats.

What about Isaiah 66? Is it an end time prophecy or no?

“Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord. -- Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)

 

[Mitspa]

I recognize you're a person of great learning and love, even if we don't agree on things, so I have nothing but respect for you.

I agree: love is from the Holy Spirit of God in the believer and leaves no room for ungodliness such as sexual lust and perversions. I go one step further in saying that this love is in agreement with the commands of the Torah-Law, which reveal God's holiness in contrast to ungodliness. Where is the legalism in that? Also, why are homosexual acts an example of ungodliness while eating unclean meats is not? God revealed both to be sin, calling them both by the same term (detestable or abominable). Why does one carry over to after the cross while the other one does not? Or maybe better worded: why does the Spirit reveal one to be ungodly and not the other? Why can believers today eat unclean meats but not commit homosexual acts?

Regarding your illustration of sexually perverse acts defiling the Temple of the Holy Spirit, sacrificing an unclean animal in the physical Temple would have defiled it, so why are we allowed to put unclean meats in our body, which is now the Temple? You don't see a connection there? I could use your earlier phrasing and say something like: the "letter" says that unclean animals would defile the physical Temple, but the "Spirit" reveals that the body is the true Temple and we aren't to defile it with unclean meats.

What about Isaiah 66? Is it an end time prophecy or no?

“Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord. -- Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)

Again thank you for your kind words...and its made absolutely clear that love not only agrees with the law of Moses but it is the true fulfillment of every commandment of God...Its also made clear that legalism is not true obedience, because of the weakness of the flesh. As far a laws regarding food, its made perfectly clear in the New Testament that all these legal requirements have been fulfilled in Christ. And the NT goes to great lengths to say in evident terms that these things have no relation to true godliness.

 

[weakness]

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of (legal dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having disarmed principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Our battle against the demonic realm is a spiritual battle, fought with spiritual laws that we have been equipped by the Holy Spirit of God. Legalism is the flesh trying to attain spiritual truths. Legalism only keeps a believer bound and subject to the flesh. Nothing pleases the devil more than legalism! Almost every attack against the spiritual gospel in the New Testament was an attempt by the devil to bring legalism into the church, and by that, giving him power over the spiritual children of God by making them subject to their own flesh, through legalism.

​ For the mystery of iniquity does already work. Thes 2:7 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Rom 7:11 Blotting out the hand writing of ordinances that was against us,which was contrary to, us, taking it out of the way, nailing it to HIS cross. Col. 2:14. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[VCO]

Not sure of your point? Love is the Commandment of Christ and its His law...because In Him we have Gods love shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, love is a fruit of the spirit, not a work of the flesh. And Love in Jesus Christ fulfills every commandment of God.

James is using the law as a witness to love, just as Paul did.

☝t<><


NOW compare what you just said to what JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keepMy commands. {NOT JUST HIS ROYAL LAW.}

Leviticus 19:34 (NKJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

1 John 3:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? {Implied answer is the LOVE OF GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN HIM.}

Romans 12:11-16 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.

2 Corinthians 9:11-13 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the ministry of this service is not only supplying the needs of the saints but is also overflowing in many thanksgivings to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] By their approval of this service, they will glorify God because of your submission that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ, and the generosity of your contribution for them and for all others,



If you are the perfect example of keeping HIS Royal Law that you seem to think you are, have you sold your house or car yet, to have more to give to the needs of the Christian Refugees who are fleeing ISIS?

I think YOUR definition of Christian LOVE is to walk up to the man who has been severely beaten and mugged, and is laying in the road bleeding; and say "May GOD Bless YOU" and WALK AWAY. Christ's definition is to do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to help him physically and financially.


Luke 10:25-37King James Version (KJV)

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

YOU ARE MISSING THE ENTIRE POINT OF BIBLICAL LOVE that spawns out of the LOVE of GOD that the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts.

I seriously doubt if you will understand why I included this 3 minute video clip. That is how shallow I think your definition of LOVE actually is:


[video=youtube;vOoWpTxKJGA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOoWpTxKJGA[/video]

 

[weakness]

How does lying hold any weight or value to an Antinomian (i.e. Those who ignore God's moral laws)? If one wants to be consistent with that which is good, they cannot borrow from God's good moral laws to prove their point in disobeying God's good moral laws. That wouldn't make any sense.[/QUOTE Nobody has said any thing about continuing in sin that I have seen except you. Please don't take offense, but this is the same old trail the wagons been down so many times ,we just slide right into that rut.

 

[weakness]

Paul says shall we sin because we are not under the Law? Paul says, God forbid. Meaning you can't continue to sin. For Paul says the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. In other words, while believers do not obey certain laws to be saved, being saved by Jesus Christ will lead a person to naturally keep God's moral laws (Which is to love God and love all people). For God lives within the true believer and He does the good work thru their heart and lives. So if there is no holiness or fruitful works, then their faith is counterfeit and false. Again, it's not the work that saves you in and of itself. For a person can be saved right here and right now without the deeds of the law by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus. If they sin again, they do not go out and do a holy work to offset that sin. They get their heart right with the Lord by confessing their sin to Him (And in forsaking it with His help). That is why we are saved by God's grace and not of works. Works is just proof that God is in you; And God (Christ) is the source of your salvation. It's not in anything that you do.

​nobody is talking about continuing in sin!

 

[weakness]

While believers do not follow the entire Law of the Old Testament obviously (For one can see changes in the Law between the OT and the NT), we do not disobey the moral law because Christ and Paul both commanded us to love (Which fulfills the moral law). Yes, it is true that we are set free from sin's power, this freedom is so as to walk in God's good ways and it never gives us a free pass so as to sin (with the thinking we are saved). For all sin must be confessed before the Lord (1 John 1:9) and forsaken in one's life. In other words, it is confusing to say we are not under law (as if we are not under no law whatsoever) as believers. Christians are not anarchists. Paul says we establish the Law. Not the OT Law, but the NT Law of Christ (Which is to love your neighbor). If one is not loving others, then they are proving they are not of God. For God is love (And God lives within them).

​ Sorry I am so late in the discussion , I just started reading, Again nobody is talking about sinning, And the reason we fulfill the law is because God writes it in our hearts , as we are his children,We do not have to look out side ourselves or back to the time of Moses, This is a new covenant, old things are passed away ,all things are become new.