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M
Is Paul not teaching love?
Has he not already clearly said the believer in Christ is set free from the letter (legal code) of the law?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
So he is teaching love, not legalism ...that should be pretty evident ?
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Has he not already clearly said the believer in Christ is set free from the letter (legal code) of the law?
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
So he is teaching love, not legalism ...that should be pretty evident ?
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
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Mitspa, do you know why I get so heated over this discussion? Because I also believed in grace and only grace until somebody took the time to explain the Bible to me and turn me away from the world and the lies we are fed in the church today. Think about the questions I asked here and then the gospel will start to make sense (the way I understand it in any case):
Jason made and interesting statement, he said that the Old Testament said an eye for an eye but Yeshua said turn the other cheek. If you understood the Old Testament you would know that an eye for an eye actually meant that if I took your eye I should reward you the cost of an eye. They had monetary values in those days for these injuries and by taking your eye, I took the ability for you to work and I had to reward you accordingly. By turning the other cheek he was actually teaching the people humbleness and not this miss placed boldness they had.
- Was Abraham a Jew or Israelite? No he was not. Why did he keep the law then? How could he keep the law if the law was only given to Moses?
- How can a God that is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow change and give us a new covenant? Was it not maybe a new understanding of the old covenant and a fulfillment of the prophecy of the gospel from the first word in the OT to the Messiah being born?
Jason made and interesting statement, he said that the Old Testament said an eye for an eye but Yeshua said turn the other cheek. If you understood the Old Testament you would know that an eye for an eye actually meant that if I took your eye I should reward you the cost of an eye. They had monetary values in those days for these injuries and by taking your eye, I took the ability for you to work and I had to reward you accordingly. By turning the other cheek he was actually teaching the people humbleness and not this miss placed boldness they had.
M
look I don't know what somebody taught you, but I don't trust anyone or anything but the Word of God and yes the Lord gave the law as a stumbling block to those who don't honor His Son...
Ro 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Righteousness - the quality of being morally right or justifiable.
This verse is not talking about salvation but righteousness
Hos6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (LAW - Gandalf's interpretation)
God's stance on this is clear and this is out of the Old Testament.
This verse is not talking about salvation but righteousness
Hos6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (LAW - Gandalf's interpretation)
God's stance on this is clear and this is out of the Old Testament.
I see a pattern of condemnation arising from this topic, as though trying to frighten the children of obedience into disobedience.
The law is not obsolete hower we have all been taught when grace and mercy are not in the law, it isto be ignored, such as stoning any adulterer.
Study the teachings of our Lord on grace, mercy and the law, and perhaps the light will shin in your heartss.
As far as anyone being influenced by demons because they choose to be obedietn, it would serve all who think this well to think on the love of God. If anyone knows demons are present in any manner,he has been given the gift of dicerning them, however he would also have the gift of casting out the demons.
I do not see anyone casting out demons in this forum as yet. God is the God of order and not chaos, He is not going to allow His children to point the finger and scream in panic, "Demon," without giving the gift of casting it out.
Enough alarmism in interpretation of the Word and leetus look to the order given by our Father on high, amen.
The law is not obsolete hower we have all been taught when grace and mercy are not in the law, it isto be ignored, such as stoning any adulterer.
Study the teachings of our Lord on grace, mercy and the law, and perhaps the light will shin in your heartss.
As far as anyone being influenced by demons because they choose to be obedietn, it would serve all who think this well to think on the love of God. If anyone knows demons are present in any manner,he has been given the gift of dicerning them, however he would also have the gift of casting out the demons.
I do not see anyone casting out demons in this forum as yet. God is the God of order and not chaos, He is not going to allow His children to point the finger and scream in panic, "Demon," without giving the gift of casting it out.
Enough alarmism in interpretation of the Word and leetus look to the order given by our Father on high, amen.
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T
And that is because David was under the Mosaic Law...
Have you ever read Galatians 2.21 or 3.21-26?
[SUP]2.21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[SUP]3.21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Have you ever read Galatians 2.21 or 3.21-26?
[SUP]2.21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
[SUP]3.21 [/SUP]Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster until Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
S
I'm sorry for using the "spirit of the Law" when you were referring to the "law of the Spirit." The "spirit of the Law" is not my own term. If you Google search, you'll find 80 million + websites that contain it. The Wikipedia page on "Letter and spirit of the law" should provide you a launching pad to further look into the term. It is an idiomatic antithesis meant to demonstrate the difference between obeying the literal interpretation of the words ("the letter") of the law, and the intent of those who wrote it ("the spirit"). It is often employed by people who are trying to make an argument against legalism. For example, someone might say that keeping the seventh day of the week holy by resting from work is keeping the "letter of the law" and may charge that person as a legalist, while on the other hand claiming the Messiah as the fulfillment of the Sabbath and the present need to enter His rest and not keep the seventh day Sabbath, citing Heb. 4 (though I would disagree with this interpretation, but that's for another discussion). The two terms may not exactly coincide but there is certainly at least some overlap, as I imagine you would argue the "law of the Spirit" says the same in contradistinction to the letter, or legal code as you called it. But I'm going to move on because I don't want to get hung up on this since it's not the focus of this discussion.
I appreciate the Scripture you bring from Paul but I believe that he and I are talking about different things. Paul is referring to his task to preach God's revealed will and purpose concerning man's salvation. Yes, this is intimately connected to the good news of the Messiah and the word of grace, but I was talking about that to which a person should look for guidance in their lives, as provided by God: the Scriptures (OT and NT), the example of the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit. The New Testament very clearly demonstrates that Paul and the disciples used all three of these in their teaching. And this method should be of great service to a believer in thoroughly equipping them for every good work, for the three should be in harmony. For example, God states through his Torah-Law not to murder, the Messiah did not murder, and the Holy Spirit is in agreement. The Messiah expounds upon this issue and says to not even hate a neighbor in one's heart. By living this out, the believer demonstrates love for his or her neighbor.
There are many lofty theological statements being made in this thread. I appreciate that is your style, but not so many practical statements are being made. I have simple questions for you that need simple answers. I'll take the blame for not being clear in my earlier questioning, which has made it difficult for you to answer. My practical concern is: How should a believer live their life? What should they do and what should they not do? These are the basic questions a new believer will ask, and we should be prepared to answer these types of questions and also direct them to the proper resources to further discern matters. I have already stated that I believe the Scriptures (OT and NT), the example of the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit are these resources. Here are my simple questions for your simple answer:
1. When you are investigating a practical matter of faith concerning how to live your life, which resources do you personally consult? And does this include the OT Scriptures? Do the commands that God spoke through the Torah-Law have any part in your investigation? What I'm really getting at is this: How do you test what the Holy Spirit places on your heart?
2. I'm still fuzzy on your definition of legalism. Can you please define it more clearly, specifically, what does it mean to obey God by the "letter" as opposed to the "spirit"? Can you give a practical example of each of these? Does consulting the commands that God spoke through the Torah-Law as part of one's investigation make them a legalist? For example, when I think the Holy Spirit has placed on my heart that killing a person is not fulfilling the summary command to love one's neighbor as yourself, and I want to investigate and test this, does it make me a legalist to reference the command found in the Torah-Law (specifically found in the ten commandments) as evidence of this truth? (Additionally, I would reference the example of the Messiah).
I have many more questions about your views of legalism, but I'll stop here for now. I also suspect that you and I interpret Paul quite differently but I'll leave that for another post.
I appreciate the Scripture you bring from Paul but I believe that he and I are talking about different things. Paul is referring to his task to preach God's revealed will and purpose concerning man's salvation. Yes, this is intimately connected to the good news of the Messiah and the word of grace, but I was talking about that to which a person should look for guidance in their lives, as provided by God: the Scriptures (OT and NT), the example of the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit. The New Testament very clearly demonstrates that Paul and the disciples used all three of these in their teaching. And this method should be of great service to a believer in thoroughly equipping them for every good work, for the three should be in harmony. For example, God states through his Torah-Law not to murder, the Messiah did not murder, and the Holy Spirit is in agreement. The Messiah expounds upon this issue and says to not even hate a neighbor in one's heart. By living this out, the believer demonstrates love for his or her neighbor.
There are many lofty theological statements being made in this thread. I appreciate that is your style, but not so many practical statements are being made. I have simple questions for you that need simple answers. I'll take the blame for not being clear in my earlier questioning, which has made it difficult for you to answer. My practical concern is: How should a believer live their life? What should they do and what should they not do? These are the basic questions a new believer will ask, and we should be prepared to answer these types of questions and also direct them to the proper resources to further discern matters. I have already stated that I believe the Scriptures (OT and NT), the example of the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit are these resources. Here are my simple questions for your simple answer:
1. When you are investigating a practical matter of faith concerning how to live your life, which resources do you personally consult? And does this include the OT Scriptures? Do the commands that God spoke through the Torah-Law have any part in your investigation? What I'm really getting at is this: How do you test what the Holy Spirit places on your heart?
2. I'm still fuzzy on your definition of legalism. Can you please define it more clearly, specifically, what does it mean to obey God by the "letter" as opposed to the "spirit"? Can you give a practical example of each of these? Does consulting the commands that God spoke through the Torah-Law as part of one's investigation make them a legalist? For example, when I think the Holy Spirit has placed on my heart that killing a person is not fulfilling the summary command to love one's neighbor as yourself, and I want to investigate and test this, does it make me a legalist to reference the command found in the Torah-Law (specifically found in the ten commandments) as evidence of this truth? (Additionally, I would reference the example of the Messiah).
I have many more questions about your views of legalism, but I'll stop here for now. I also suspect that you and I interpret Paul quite differently but I'll leave that for another post.
there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus. I sometimes wonder if the spiritual accusation casters exert as much effort going to all the lost nations preaching the gospel or if there is a right fight focus of Gods word. Hope you boys are also feeding the lost souls of this world 
bless your argumentative hearts.
bless your argumentative hearts.
You order above would place salvation after obedience...that is impossible....the lost man has no ability to discern the word of God, much less be obedient unto it...it takes a spiritual birth to be able to understand the word of God which in turn can and will lead to obedience.....faith comes first..then obedience......no where in the bible has obedience produced faith..same is true with salvation......saved--->justified--->obedience to the word because it can now be understood and the spirit that has been born of God seeks and is willing to be obedient..the NATURAL man is NOT subject unto the LAW of GOD neither indeed can BE!