SAVED BY WORKS

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Dec 12, 2013
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Be not REMOVED from the SIMPLICITY that is FOUND in Christ<---guess God was mistaken to INSPIRE a man to write of the SIMPLE plan of salvation and SIMPLICITY found in Christ...IT pleased GOD by the FOOLISHNESS of PREACHING to save them that BELIEVE<-----THAT is FAITH<--to BELIEVE....guess it is FOOLISH to you to SIMPLY BELIEVE and BE saved......<----the simplicity found in Christ!

It's much simpler than you guys are making it.
Not everyone is born again for saying a sinners prayer, those who are born again go through a process of sanctification.
Their desires change and they become a new creation. Anyone who does not desire to be obedient to loving God and others will not be born again.

If you are in continual sin, constantly struggling with yourself to do what you know is right. Then repent, desire and practice obedience and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Anyone truly born of the Spirit will not continue practicing sin, because they cannot. They become slaves to righteousness.
 
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a baby doesn't breathe through its lungs until AFTER IT IS BORN.

but if a baby isn't born, it NEVER BREATHES.

and if a baby BREATHES BEFORE IT IS BORN, it usually gets a bad infection and dies.
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a christian led by Yahweh's Spirit IS NOT LIKE THE WIND UNTIL AFTER IT IS BORN AGAIN.

but if a christian isn't born again, it NEVER SEES THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

and if a person TRIES TO DO SOMETHING SPIRITUAL BEFORE IT IS BORN AGAIN, it dies in sin and trespasses.

if it's not obvious, someone led by Yahweh's Spirit never sins on purpose.
i.e. always let Yahweh lead. not just sometimes.

AS IT IS WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD: if someone willfully willingly walks in darkness, they do not belong to God.
if someone willingly willfully continues in sin, they are liars and the truth is not in them.
if someone does what hasatan says to do, and refuses to repent, their god then is hasatan, not Yahweh.
if someone does what hasatan says to do, and refuses to repent, they are not forgiven.

all very simply summed up by JESUS:
whoever or whatever you obey/ seek to please/ ....... they are your god.
there's no inbetween. no half-way.(half Yahweh's / half hasatan's) .... it's all or nothing.

like it is written "all people are stupid" . and "a few find life". and "almost all end in destruction"

(even though as many as will call on Jesus Name may be saved, few do.) (choose today who you will obey).

God will NOT save the unrighteous/disobedient as long as they continue in that state. 2 Thess 1:8, the ones here that God will have vengeance upon are those that "obey not" (present tense), those that continue in a state where they are not obeying.

Yet the only way to get out of an unrighteous state in order to be saved is by doing righteousness. That is why Peter said those that WORKETH righteousness are the ones accepted with God- Acts 10:35. As long as one continues to work UNrighteousness he will NEVER be accepted with God. Therefore John says as long as one continues to NOT do righteousness, he continues to NOT be of God, 1 Jn 3:10. God will not accept anyone until he first does GOD'S righteousness and that is why those Jews Paul speaks about in Rom 10:3 were lost for they had not submitted/obeyed/worked God's righteousness.

God does not randomly chose a person who is living in unrighteousness and save that unrighteous person THEN that unrighteous person works righteousness....that idea is totally foreign to the bible.

Heb 5:9 who are the ones that Christ saves? The ones that obey or the ones that disobey?
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
If you do not love God and people enough to stop sinning... You probably are not born again.
The Holy Spirit makes loving God and His commandments not only easy, but necessary.
"Slave to righteousness"
 
Dec 26, 2014
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slaves of righteousness are the only ones (with little children/ or as little children?)
who can understand how simple it is.

slaves of sin. slaves of the devil. slaves of the flesh. (which we all once were, consigned under sin )
cannot understand, comprehend, grasp or see truth.
(but God still let's them think they are saved, or even sends them a spirit of delusion to believe their own lies,
as it is written, because God is God)


so they keep posting hoping somehow their sin may be forgiven for all their effort !!! ??? (not!!!!!!)


It's much simpler than you guys are making it.
Not everyone is born again for saying a sinners prayer, those who are born again go through a process of sanctification.
Their desires change and they become a new creation. Anyone who does not desire to be obedient to loving God and others will not be born again.

If you are in continual sin, constantly struggling with yourself to do what you know is right. Then repent, desire and practice obedience(AKA LOVE, obedience is just loving God and people) and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Anyone truly born of the Spirit will not continue practicing sin, because they cannot. They become slaves to righteousness.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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It's much simpler than you guys are making it.
Not everyone is born again for saying a sinners prayer, those who are born again go through a process of sanctification.
Their desires change and they become a new creation. Anyone who does not desire to be obedient to loving God and others will not be born again.

If you are in continual sin, constantly struggling with yourself to do what you know is right. Then repent, desire and practice obedience(AKA LOVE, obedience is just loving God and people) and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Anyone truly born of the Spirit will not continue practicing sin, because they cannot. They become slaves to righteousness.
So the issue is does God save those that work UNrighteousness or save those that work righteousness(obey)?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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If you do not love God and people enough to stop sinning... You probably are not born again
John, the disciple that loved Jesus, rested his head upon the breast of jesus and who writes at least 5 books of the bible includes himself when he said...If we say the we have NO SIN we are decievd and the truth is NOT in US........

Paul under inspiration stated....

1. The things I say I will not do I do
2. The things I say I will do I dont do
3. When I go to do good....I find then a law that sin is present with me...
4. I am the number one chief sinner among men<---towards the end of his life
5. With his mind he serves the law of God and with his body the law of sin

It is the spirit that has been born of God, does not sin, is eternally sealed, saved and justified before God.....it is bound in a body that is fallen, still flesh, still prone to sin, not subject unto the law of God neither in deed can be......

Paul taught that these two are contrary the one to the other and are in a constant struggle for control of the man....Jesus said it best....the Spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak......many need to get this understanding for sure.......!
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You do not want to see that submitting/obeying is an action, a work and not some mental assent of the mind.
So what action/works did the thief on the cross accomplish while he was hanging on the cross just prior to his death when Jesus promised him that this day he will be with Him in Paradise? (Luke 23:40-43). Saving belief is more than just mental assent with the mind. We believe in our HEART (and not just with our head) that God raised Him from the dead. With the HEART one believes unto righteousness (Romans 10:10). Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16) is submitting to Christ in faith (Ephesians 2:8). You do not want to see that faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. You simply define faith as works.

"Establishing their own righteousness" is a work just as submitting to God's righteousness is also a work. Paul is showing how the former work does not save yet the latter work does save.
Establishing their own righteousness by works of the law (including the moral aspect of the law) does not save but submitting to God's righteousness by believing (trusting) in Christ (for salvation) saves.

Submitting to God's righteousness is obviously the work that saves....those that WORKETH righteousness are accepted with God, Acts 10:35.
Submitting to God's righteousness through faith in Christ saves (Philippians 3:9). In Acts 10:34-35, Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the FRUIT of, not the means of salvation. This verses gives a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness have already been saved through faith.

om 10:3---------submitting to God's righteousess>>>>>>saves
BELIEVES.

Acts 10:35-------working righteousness>>>>>>>>>>>>>accepted with God
Works righteousness is a result of BELIEVES, descriptive of a saved believer, not a prerequisite to become saved.

The reason Paul did not say those Jews were lost for they "have not a belief only" is because belief only is not what would have saved them but submitting WORKING God's righteousness is what would save them.
You are putting the cart before the horse. BELIEVES the gospel is what would save them. *Crystal clear - have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" BELIEVES, but the shoe does not fit.

So you are avoiding that "submit" means to WORK/OBEY which is the total opposite of a dead belief only.
Works of obedience follow saving faith in Christ, which is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) not a dead belief that produces no good works. To submit to the righteousness of God means to BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, but you simply REFUSE to believe the gospel and instead, set out to establish your own righteousness of works salvation. Paul clearly stated what he means by "submit to the righteousness of God" (Romans 10:3) and that is "BELIEVE" in Christ (Romans 10:4). It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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slaves of righteousness are the only ones (with little children/ or as little children?)
who can understand how simple it is.

slaves of sin. slaves of the devil. slaves of the flesh. (which we all once were, consigned under sin )
cannot understand, comprehend, grasp or see truth.
(but God still let's them think they are saved, or even sends them a spirit of delusion to believe their own lies,
as it is written, because God is God)


so they keep posting hoping somehow their sin may be forgiven for all their effort !!! ??? (not!!!!!!)
Must one be a "slave of righteousness" to be saved?
 
W

WheresEnoch

Guest
Must one be a "slave of righteousness" to be saved?
You have to be a slave of righteousness (born again) in order to call yourself a Christian and belong to the churches Paul started and in order to enter the kingdom of heaven

1 Corinthian 5
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.[a]

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
 
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So what action/works did the thief on the cross accomplish while he was hanging on the cross just prior to his death when Jesus promised him that this day he will be with Him in Paradise? (Luke 23:40-43). Saving belief is more than just mental assent with the mind. We believe in our HEART (and not just with our head) that God raised Him from the dead. With the HEART one believes unto righteousness (Romans 10:10). Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 1:16) is submitting to Christ in faith (Ephesians 2:8). You do not want to see that faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. You simply define faith as works.

Establishing their own righteousness by works of the law (including the moral aspect of the law) does not save but submitting to God's righteousness by believing (trusting) in Christ (for salvation) saves.

Submitting to God's righteousness through faith in Christ saves (Philippians 3:9). In Acts 10:34-35, Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the FRUIT of, not the means of salvation. This verses gives a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness have already been saved through faith.

BELIEVES.

Works righteousness is a result of BELIEVES, descriptive of a saved believer, not a prerequisite to become saved.

You are putting the cart before the horse. BELIEVES the gospel is what would save them. *Crystal clear - have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" BELIEVES, but the shoe does not fit.

Works of obedience follow saving faith in Christ, which is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) not a dead belief that produces no good works. To submit to the righteousness of God means to BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, but you simply REFUSE to believe the gospel and instead, set out to establish your own righteousness of works salvation. Paul clearly stated what he means by "submit to the righteousness of God" (Romans 10:3) and that is "BELIEVE" in Christ (Romans 10:4). It's not hard to understand, just hard for you to ACCEPT.

You posted "Works of obedience follow saving faith in Christ" and that is not what Paul said. Paul did not say those Jews were saved but then would not submit to God's righteousness. He said they were lost for they would NOT submit/work God's righteousness. One is lost and remains lost until he first works God's righteousness. You have it completely backwards from what the bible teaches.


You try to equate "believe only" to "submitting" avoiding the fact that "submitting" means a work, obeying, an obedient work and not just a mental assent of the mind.

Paul did not say one who "believes only" is saved, THEN does work of righteousness. Again, the Jews were lost NOT because they lacked 'belief only" but because they did not submit/obey/work the righteousness of God. Acts 10:35 God's righteousness is something that is WORKED not something one just sits down and thinks about.



Peter said he that worketh righteousness is accepted with God.
You say one is accepted with God THEN works righteousness.

Peter has it right and did not "put the cart before the horse" when he put working righteousness BEFORE being accepted with God.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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You have to be a slave of righteousness (born again) in order to call yourself a Christian and belong to the churches Paul started and in order to enter the kingdom of heaven

1 Corinthian 5
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.[a]

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Yes, one must work righteousness/be a slave to righteousness to be saved but some here in this thread say one can be saved while being a slave to sin THEN work righteousness AFTER he is saved...which is totally backwards from how the bible has it. They have it backwards for they search for a way to get one saved while he does nothing.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
These verses tell me, that some level of obedience (loving God and others/hating that which is evil/denying your flesh its lusts) is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit and be born again:

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

John 14
“If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.
 
H

haz

Guest
If I am understanding you correctly above here, you have not ceased or stopped from sin. But you believe that you are not capable of being charged with sin because you believe Jesus took away all your sin (i.e. including future sin). Am I correct? Yes?
Yes, although I would word it differently.
Christians are not perfect in behavior. But our failings are not sin that can be charged against us.

Sin applies to those without Christ. They do not have Christ as their covering therefore Satan, the accuser (Rev 12:10) can charge them with sin, resulting in the wages of death.

But for Christians, our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. We abide in him, and in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5. To say a Christian sins is like saying that there is sin in Christ.

1 Peter 4:1 means we have ceased or stopped from sinning as an action or performance of sinning as a way of life. It doesn't mean you don't sin when you sin. Verse 3 says, for the time of our past life (when we were unbelievers), we used to walk in lasciviousness, lusts, and idolatries, etc. Verse 4 says others (who are in the flesh) think it strange that we run not with them anymore. In other words, we do not perform sinful things as a way of life with others is talking about an action. Cease means to stop.
What "sin" are you charging Christians with?
Is it transgression of the law (1John 3:4)?
Is it unrighteousness (1John 5:17)?

Also you seem to be holding contradictory positions. Above you speak of stopping/ceasing from sin. But you also speak of not "habitually" sinning. There's a big difference between stop/cease and merely reducing an offence from it's former levels.

Also can you provide scripture detailing what determines habitual. Is it 7x70 offences?
Habitual is such an ambiguous term and really needs to be explained how many offences over a given time period determines habitual.

Also does God take into consideration the length of ones life when judging habitual sin?


1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;

This means Christians have ceased from sin. Doctrines that change the meanings of words like "ceased" to mean not ceasing but just reducing, have no credibility.

How have Christians ceased from sin?
Again it's because our identity is now in Christ (Col 3:3, Gal 2:20), and Christ is without sin (1John 3:5).

And as for the flawed physical body of Christians, that's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

Therefore we should not be judging a Christian's righteousness and sinlessness by how good a life they live. That flawed physical being that you see is already dead, by faith. We should instead see Christ in ourselves and in each other, and in him there is no sin (1John 3:5).

1 John 3:9 is talking about how the person who is born of God does not commit habitual sin as a way of life anymore. Please look at various translations for 1 John 3:9. Also, look at 1 John 3:10. It says the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest in the fact that whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither is he that loveth not his brother. So again, it's talking about an action. If you do not do righteousness and you don't love your brother you are not of God. That's what it means.
1John 3:9 says "cannot sin". This confirms 1Pet 4:1 "ceased from sin". We all know what stop and ceased mean. Therefore we should not change their meanings into some ambiguous claim that it does not mean stop/cease, but instead means merely reducing offences from former levels.

And how does one do righteousness?

Option 1: Perfect obedience to the law, James 2:10.
Or
Option 2: Believe on Jesus thus your faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

As you clearly fail on option 1 then I suggest option 2, believe on Jesus.



Now, you said what sin do you think Christians can be charged with? Uh, willful sin.

Hebres 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Verse 38 says, the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. So yes, sin can be charged to the believer according to Hebrews 10.
We differ in understanding of sin in Heb 10:26.

The knowledge of the truth that Heb 10:26 refers salvation in Christ. This is spoken of also in Heb 6:4-6, highlighted below in blue.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This is what we have in Christ, having the knowledge of he truth.

So what is the "willful sin" that takes us away from the knowledge of the truth?
It's unbelief in Jesus, which is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

And how does one turn back to unbelief/sin?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (dead works of righteousness under the law), I make myself a transgressor./Sinner

The willful sin in Heb 10:26 refers to those who turn back to rebuild the dead works of self-righteousness under the law. Such reject Christ's sacrifice in spite of having had the knowledge of the truth (Heb 6:4-6). To turn back to the law is to choose self-righteousness by works of the law, and thus reject Christ.

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
But Christians are NOT under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
So if a Christian who really had the knowledge of the truth (Heb 6:4-6) choose to turn back to works of the law to determine righteousness, then such have rejected Christ's sacrifice (unbelief, the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9) and have willfully sinned in that being back under the jurisdiction of the law for righteousness by works they will be judged as guilty of all the law (James 2:10) as they will fail to keep it perfectly.


Paul addresses that in Romans 6. For shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law? Paul replies to that question, with: "God forbid." Meaning you are not allowed to do so. Paul then continues to say in Romans 6 that you are a servant to whom you obey whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Jesus believes you can only serve two masters. Jesus says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (and vise versa). For we will know false prophets by their fruit. Peter says the false prophets are those who have eyes full of adultery and have not ceased from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). Meaning, they are sinning as a way of life still. They are still sinning like the world all the time. They are stilll iiving in wickedness.
Agreed. But we differ in understanding this.
Sin = DEATH.
Yet you claim that you still sin.

What is the obedience unto righteousness spoken of in Rom 6:16?
Rom 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

And that doctrine we obeyed was to believe on Jesus, as he commanded (John 3:16, 1John 3:23)
Believing on Jesus are the works that we're called to do, John 6:29.
Believing on Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.

Regarding your comment on 2Pet 2:14, see it below for context.
2Pet 2:14-
Having eyes full of (spiritual) adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Which have forsaken the right way (believe on Jesus), and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness (dead works of self-righteousness);
But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever
.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment (to believe on Jesus) delivered unto them.

Note it described them as having eyes full of adultery.

Now remember that scripture is to be spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14. If we read it merely in physical terms then we will make the same mistake as Nicodmus who thought born again meant one had to re enter into their mother's womb.

So 2Pet 2:14 is not speaking about physical adultery. It refers to spiritual adultery.
Remember that as Christians we're married to Christ, Eph 5:32.
We're one spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17

Hence we should not be into spiritual sexual immorality with another.
And who is the other?

1Cor 6:18
Flee (spiritual) sexual immorality (with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24). Every sin that a man does is outside the body (of Christ we abide in), but he who commits (spiritual) sexual immorality (with Hagar/self-righteousness by works of the law) sins against his own body (Christ).

This is why we see so many warnings in scripture against turning back to the law to determine righteousness.
To mix works of the law, with grace, is spiritual sexual immorality.


1 John 3:8 says he that committeth sin is of the devil. Verse 14 says we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Meaning.... you cannot hate your brother or you are abiding in death. Verse 15 confirms this even more. It says, whosever hateth his brother is a murderer and ye know htat no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. So yes, how you live will matter in your right standing with God. But again, a true beleiver obeyes the Lord out of love not because of their own self effort but because they have been changed spiritually by God in the fact that they repented of their sin (With a Godly sorrow) and have accepted Jesus as their Savior.
But as you claim you still sin then according to 1John 3:8 you are implying that you are of the devil. Just ONE sin/transgression of the law (1John 3:4) makes you guilty of all the law (James 2:10). I hope you are now starting to see the error in the doctrine you follow.

I do however agree that Christians love one another. A Christians lifestyle often does improve. But we're all at different stages of growth. But to judge ones righteousness based on how good a lifestyle they live is a dangerous error.

As for being forgiven 70 x 7: This is in reference to past sin and not future sin. Nowhere does the Bible ever say your future sin is forgiven you. 1 John 2:1 says we are to sin not. If any man sins, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgiven us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For if we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth (1 John 1:6). But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you from all sin (1 John 1:7). This is what Romans 8 is talking about, too. Romans 8:1 says, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT and NOT AFTER THE FLESH. Romans 8:6 says to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Once we believe on Jesus there is no future sin that can be charged against us.
Remember 1Cor 6:18 where it says that every sin we commit is outside the body (of Christ that we abide in).
Remember also Rom 8:33 who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect.
Remember also 1John 3:9 we "cannot sin", and 1Pet 4:1 we've "ceased from sin".

Only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
Once in Christ there is no more sin that can be charged against us (unless we reject Christ and turn back to the law).

To walk after the Spirit is to believe on Jesus.
To walk after the flesh is to reject Christ.
 
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On one hand, I am arguing with a person who believes they are saved by works. Which is wrong because we are saved by God's grace and not of works. On the other hand I am arguing with others here who believe that no future sin is charged to their account. For all their future sin is forgiven them. So they can technically sin and still be saved. This is a license to sin. It's a condoning of evil behavior. For how in the world do you watch a movie and tell the good guys from the bad guys? Does having an overall good behavior make the difference? Can one get away with the occasional sin on the side and be saved because of some "All future sin is forgiven type belief"? I am sorry, I am not buying such obvious evil. The Scripture are against such an idea and Basic Morality is against it, too.

Anyways, I will pray for those who are on both sides.
 
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On one hand, I am arguing with a person who believes they are saved by works. Which is wrong because we are saved by God's grace and not of works. On the other hand I am arguing with others here who believe that no future sin is charged to their account. For all their future sin is forgiven them. So they can technically sin and still be saved. This is a license to sin. It's a condoning of evil behavior. For how in the world do you watch a movie and tell the good guys from the bad guys? Does having an overall good behavior make the difference? Can one get away with the occasional sin on the side and be saved because of some "All future sin is forgiven type belief"? I am sorry, I am not buying such obvious evil. The Scripture are against such an idea and Basic Morality is against it, too.

Anyways, I will pray for those who are on both sides.
The above emboldened would be true if the New covenant hinged on one-not two core points
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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my salvation is by works !!

by the works of Jesus Christ, who is the strength of my right arm, my portion and inheritance!

He said to these bones, "
rise up!"
and i live!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Must one be a "slave of righteousness" to be saved?
do i make myself a slave, or am i redeemed at the market by my Master?

if it were by my will, i fall short. if it were by my volition, my wages would be His obligation and my hours of my own choosing.

praise God! it is by His strength, His will, His mercy and His righteousness!
for i am not saved having my own righteousness, but having been clothed with Him, by a righteousness that is by faith in Him!!

HE has counted the cost, paid it in full and both equipped His servant for every good work, and sent him out to do His work. He owns the field, His are the wages, His are the livestock, His is the grain. His is the food and the water by which His servant lives! His is the home in which His servant finds shelter, and His is the bed in which He gives His servant rest!

all glory! all honor! all power! forever is His throne!
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV


God's position is clear. If you want to argue with Him; how can I hope to persuade you of anything?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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You posted "Works of obedience follow saving faith in Christ" and that is not what Paul said.
That's exactly what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. What part of Ephesians 2:8-10 do you not understand? Saved through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. *These good works are works of obedience which follow "have been saved through faith."

Paul did not say those Jews were saved but then would not submit to God's righteousness.
Of course Paul did not say that. Paul clearly said: Romans 10:3 - (THOSE JEWS WERE NOT SAVED BECAUSE)
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. THEY DID NOT BELIEVE. Now once again, read Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by FAITH. *NOT BY WORKS.

He said they were lost for they would NOT submit/work God's righteousness.
Show me the word "work" or "works" in Romans 10:3. Paul said they were lost because they would not submit to the righteousness of God because they did not believe, *instead they set out to established their "own righteousness by works," just as you are.

One is lost and remains lost until he first works God's righteousness.
One is lost and remains lost until he first BELIEVES. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6 etc..). Those who BELIEVE have submitted to the righteousness of God (Romans 10:3-4) which is by FAITH (Philippians 3:9). *Not by works. Children of the devil do not practice righteousness in order to become children of God, but BECAUSE they are children of God (1 John 3:10). You have it completely backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

You have it completely backwards from what the bible teaches.
That statement is the epitome of irony.
:rolleyes:

You try to equate "believe only" to "submitting" avoiding the fact that "submitting" means a work, obeying, an obedient work and not just a mental assent of the mind.
Choosing to believe the gospel is an obedient act of man, as we see in Romans 10:16. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Believing in our heart (Romans 10:9) is more than just a mental assent of the mind (James 2:19). I am avoiding nothing and am reading what Paul clearly stated in Romans 10:3,4; Philippians 3:9 and Ephesians 2:8-10 and he clearly said we are saved through belief/faith and not by works. You are reading your biased church doctrine into what Paul said. So is choosing to believe the gospel an act of obedience or an act of disobedience? In John 6:29, did Jesus say, "this is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in in whom He sent?" Or did Jesus say here is the list of works (plural) of God (work the works of God - vs. 28) that God requires for you to accomplish before you will be saved?

Paul did not say one who "believes only" is saved, THEN does work of righteousness.
What other requirements do you see mentioned in Romans 10:4 in connection with -
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who _______? What is the only word here that fills in the blank? Simply BELIEVES. What about Romans 1:16? For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who ______? What is the only word here that fills in the blank? Simply BELIEVES. When will you BELIEVE?

Again, the Jews were lost NOT because they lacked 'belief only" but because they did not submit/obey/work the righteousness of God.
In Romans 10:3-4, submit to the righteousness of God = BELIEVES. By doing so, they would have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). The righteousness of God which is by FAITH and not by the works of the law (Philippians 3:9). *See how this all fits together? *Perfect harmony.

Acts 10:35 God's righteousness is something that is WORKED not something one just sits down and thinks about.
Peter is talking about "works of righteousness" here which are produced by those who already BELIEVE and are already SAVED. Paul did not say "works righteousness" in Romans 10:3,4. He said submit to the righteousness of God which = BELIEVES. What did Paul say about "works of righteousness" in Titus 3:5? He said that it is
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. So we are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the FRUIT of, not the means of salvation. Peter is giving a description of a saved believer, not a prerequisite for salvation. Those who work righteousness have already been saved through faith. *You missed the heart of the issue on why such people are accepted by God and why they work righteousness.

Peter said he that worketh righteousness is accepted with God.
Who is it that worketh righteousness? Lost unbelievers or saved believers? Who is it that practices righteousness? Children of the devil or children of God? - 1 John 3:10. You keep missing the point and continue to put the cart before the horse. Peter is not talking about works of righteousness as being the means of salvation here. Paul made it crystal clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness in Titus 3:5. Rather, the question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only (partiality - vs. 34) or is now available to Gentiles also (those "in every nation") who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right (descriptive of Jewish and Gentile Christians).

You say one is accepted with God THEN works righteousness.
Peter is not saying that one works righteousness in order to become saved (and neither is Paul - Titus 3:5) but is describing believers/Christians (those who work righteousness) they are accepted by God whether Jew or Gentile. This is descriptive language of a believer/Christian "works righteousness" not a prerequisite to become saved. This continues to be a major stumbling block for you.

Peter has it right and did not "put the cart before the horse" when he put working righteousness BEFORE being accepted with God.
Peter did not put working righteousness before "becoming" accepted with God. Peter is simply giving a description of those who are accepted with God "they work righteousness." What works of righteousness did Peter add to "BELIEVES" in Acts 10:43 in connection with receiving forgiveness of sins? "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sins." You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,453
13,394
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my salvation is by works !!

by the works of Jesus Christ, who is the strength of my right arm, my portion and inheritance!

He said to these bones, "
rise up!"
and i live!
Amen! We are saved THROUGH FAITH based on the merit of Christ's finished work of redemption AND NOT ON THE MERIT OF OUR WORKS!