SAVED BY WORKS

Mitspa · Mar 5, 2015

No he is CLEARLY speaking of those who turn from grace back to the law, just as in Galatians

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

The strength of sin is the law, "I would not have known covetousness but the law said thou shalt not covet" but the commandment produced all manner of evil lust...

Cursed children...those under the curse of the law

Forsake the "way of righteousness " they have forsaken the righteousness of faith and turn back to the law, like a dog to its vomit...the strength of sin.

MarcR · Mar 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

You are not looking at all of Scripture and all the examples of what reality have to say, my friend.

For one, gifts can be destroyed and forsaken by either one's choice and or negligence. In other words, a person can receive a free car (tax free) as a gift; But if they run red lights, text while drive, hit people on the road, and drink n' drive, then their car (Which is a free gift) is going to be taken from them.

Second, 2 Peter 2:20-21 says, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Meaning, only a believer can escape the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of Jesus. Only a believer can be entangled again. Only a believer can experience the latter end being worse for them than the beginning (with them being a sinner before accepting Jesus). The same line of thinking is said in Hebrews 10:26, 38. Verse 26 says, "For if we sin willfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 38 says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

After you deal with the issues of ownership that I raised instead of skirting them I'll listen to your counter arguments.

Until you deal with the ownership issues there is no discussion.

dcontroversal · Mar 5, 2015

No matter how you slice it and dice it.......those who teach works for salvation and or those who teach you can lose salvation are trusting in themselves over the God given faith of Christ.....It amazes me how those who can trust in themselves and their works are oblivious to those who come before Christ BRAGGING and BOASTING of THEIR WORKS and their right to enter the Kingdom based upon their WORKS...THEY believed in SALVATION based UPON THEIR WORKS.....THEY ARE LOST and CAST from the presence of GOD...WHY? Because they TRUSTED in their WORKS and THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS instead of JESUS and the SIMPLISTIC message of belief=salvation....PERIOD!

posthuman · Mar 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

you've read the book of Jonah, yes?

how did Jonah's 'free will' work out for him, when he tried to exercise it to 'check out' of his job as the Lord's servant?

Yisraelite · Mar 5, 2015

You have to do works in order for faith to be imputed as righteousness
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (*James‬ *2‬:*20-26‬ KJV)

So for those who think you will be saved without works sorry that's not faith. Faith is not only a mental accent it's an action.

Mitspa · Mar 5, 2015

Yisraelite said:

You have to do works in order for faith to be imputed as righteousness
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (*James‬ *2‬:*20-26‬ KJV)

So for those who think you will be saved without works sorry that's not faith. Faith is not only a mental accent it's an action.

Works of faith...like Rahab the HARLOT... that's the example!

Not works of the law or "moral" works...

savedsince14 · Mar 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Well. first of all, nobody is "forced"into anything. When God deals with your heart by the Holy Spirit about being lost without Him, You do NOT have to accept Him. This is your freewill. This is why God calls His salvation a free gift. You do not HAVE to accept it. But, when you realize what you will be gaining(a heavenly home and ALL your sins forgiven because God already sees the future), why would you not want that?After salvation , we are faced with temptations worse than ever.This is again where our free will comes in.We decide whether or not we are going to yield to the temptation or take God's way of escape.God does not force His will on anybody. WE still,after salvation , have a choice about doing God's will or our own. The difference is If a person sins,and there is no conviction of the sin, then I have a hard time believing they are saved.When you receive salvation, it is because you WANT God's love,not that you are "forced"into it and you do not want to be separated from him. The God that I believe in knows everything, sees everything and is everything. It's either one of two ways,JASON0047, by faith or works.I have been saved since I was 14 and I have NEVER lost it no matter how much I have sinned or what sins I have commited. And to Mitspa, you can keep your messiah complex all you want, you will never convince me that you don't sin.God said you do and so does everyone else.

Mitspa · Mar 5, 2015

don't put me in with Jason...And I was making a biblical point about our condition in Christ as sinless and righteous...In Him! Don't get excited! My flesh wars against the spirit just like every other believer, but I know that grace empowers us to overcome, not legalism !

Jason0047 · Mar 5, 2015

Mitspa said:

Uh, no. The Gentile unbelievers who do not care about God's Laws sin all the time. That is just silly that they would need a Law in their lives telling them that they are breaking God's Laws. Everyone is without excuse concerning the moral law. People know what is right but they choose that which is evil instead anyways.

2 Peter 2:20
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Again, you cannot escape the pollutions of the world unless you have Jesus Christ. The context is that they sinned as a way of life and not in the fact that they were trying to be justified by the Law. You are overstepping the context. Not everyone who sins is trying to be justified by the Law like the Jews who rejected Jesus. That is too large of an assumption. Many people of all types walks of life sin and do not care about any particular laws.

Jason0047 · Mar 5, 2015

Also, not everything in the Scriptures has to do with the Jews trying to justify themselves wrongfully by the Law, either. Yes, this is mentioned in the Scriptures, but there are many cases in Scripture of both Messianic Jews and Gentile believers who have turned from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
1 Timothy 5:11-15
Galatians 5:4
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

For example, lets take the parable of the sower in Matthew chapter 13. When someone who does not understand the Word, this is seed that the wicked one takes from their heart (Matthew 13:19). So obviously this is talking about a non believer who rejects God's Word.

The person who received seed into stony places received the word with joy but fell away due to persecution because he has no root within the Word (Matthew 13:20, 21). Now, lets understand something here. You cannot fall away from something you never had. An unbeliever cannot fall away because he is already fallen or lost. To put it to you another way, you cannot depart from Houston airport unless you were in Houston airport.

This same line of thinking is expressed to us in James, too.

James 4:4

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

Did you catch what James said? He said whoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God. Now, lets understand something here. Unbelievers are already enemies of God. They cannot become enemies of God. Only believers can become enemies of God.

Oh, and James was talking to believers in this passage for verse 5 and verse 11 confirm that he is talking to the brethren.

Jason0047 · Mar 5, 2015

Mitspa said:

You are putting words in my mouth. Wherein did I ever say legalism is what gives us the power to overcome? I never said that. Nor do I believe such a thing remotely. Once a believer has repented of their sins and accepted Jesus, they are saved. If they sin again, they confess and repent of those sins. They are saved by God's grace apart from the deeds of the Law. No Legalism involved! But when you are saved, holiness and fruitful works will follow because one has been transformed spiritually and one has God living within them (Who does the good work in their lives).

Jason0047 · Mar 5, 2015

savedsince14 said:

There are many examples in Scripture of believers who were once saved and in right standing with God but then they chose to forrsake the right way. Saul once had the Spirit of God but then the Lord's Spirit departed from him and he later committed suicide. Ananias and Sapphira had lied to the Spirit and they both were killed. Fear fell upon the whole church and all those who heard about it. Now, if Ananais and Sapphira were saved and went to Heaven, then their fellow brethren would have the comfort in knowing they are in Heaven. But instead, fear fell on the church. Why were they afraid? Because they did not go to Heaven. They faced the Judgment of God. What other reason is there to fear? For Jesus says, fear not them that can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell (i.e. Gehenna, - the Lake of Fire).

If we willfully sin after we received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice of sins (Hebrews 10:26). John says we are to sin not. He says if we do sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Chriist that we can go to. For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Jesus said if you do not repent, you will all likewise perish. He said repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to read Jonah 3, you would notice that the Ninevites had departed from their evil ways. Peter identifies the false prophets as those who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin. Jesus says we will know false prophets by their fruits. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (and vise versa).

Jason0047 · Mar 5, 2015

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

WheresEnoch · Mar 5, 2015

If I may add something: the law, and all laws for that matter, are necessary in the absence of love.

We must turn from our wickedness, because if we truly love Christ, we cannot sin against Him.
Just as if we truly love our neighbor, we cannot sin against him.

The only reason we continue in our sins is that we love our sin more than Christ and our neighbor

If we continue to sin against Him, then He will tell us He never knew us, because He never did and neither did we know Him.

John 14
“If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.

Jason0047 · Mar 5, 2015

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved):

Matthew 7:21-23 - Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.

Matthew 10:33 - Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.

Matthew 12:31-32 - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This means verbally cursing or speaking bad about the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 13:18-23 - 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.

Matthew 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 - Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.

Matthew 25:44-46 - Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.

Mark 8:35-36 - Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.

Mark 9:43-48 - Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 13:13 - But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally (Also see Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 4:16, Hebrews 10:35-39, Revelation 2:10)

Luke 9:23-25 - Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).

Luke 14:26-33 - Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?

Luke 18:9-14 - Jesus taught that the man who was more justified was the one who humbled himself and cried out to God for mercy before God vs. the man who did not do so.

John 3:19, 20 - An important point about "The Condemnation" is that those who loved darkness hate the Light because they loved the pleasure of their own evil deeds, unless of course their deeds should be reproved (that is).

John 12:25 - He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.

John 15:1-6 - Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

John 17:3 - Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?

Romans 1:29-32 - Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5-11 - Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

Rom 6:15-23 - Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.

Romans 8:1-8 - Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.

Romans 8:12-13 - We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die.

Romans 11:20-22 - Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:2 - You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.

Galatians 5:1-4 - Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law, … have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:19-21 - Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:24 - Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Galatians 6:7-8 - Don't be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.

Ephesians 5:3-6 - Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.

Ephesians 5:25-27 - Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.

Philippians 2:12-16 - Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
… so that: (1) you may become blameless, and (2) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.

Philippians 3:7-14 - Paul presses on to attaining the goal of gaining Christ, knowing Him, and being found in Him.

Colossians 1:21-29 - Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Colossians 3:5-6 - Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.

1 Timothy 5:11-15 - Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 - Paul says that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Christ is proud knowing nothing.

1 Timothy 6:9-14 - Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition; Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).

1 Timothy 6:17-19 - Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.

Titus 1:1-3 - Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 2:1-4 - Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?

Hebrews 3:6 - We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Hebrews 3:12-15 - Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.

Hebrews 3:17-19 - The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).

Hebrews 4:1 - Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).

Hebrews 4:11 - Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:4-8 - Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.

Hebrews 10:26-27 - If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, expect God’s fiery judgment.

Hebrews 10:29-31 - The Lord will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:35-39 - Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.

Hebrews 12:14-15 - Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.

Hebrews 12:15-17 - Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.

James 1:12-16 - Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin results in spiritual death.

1 Peter 1:8-9 - Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.

2 Peter 1:10-11 - Be diligent to make your call & election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.

2 Peter 2:1, 14 - The false prophets (i.e. believers) are those who have eyes full of adultery and cannot cease from sin.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3-5 - We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:24-25 - If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us, nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.

1 John 3:15 - If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.

Jude 1:4 NIV - There are those false believers who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality

Jude 1:20-21 - 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.

Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life (Also see Mark 13:13above).

Revelation 2:11 - He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).

Revelation 3:5 - He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.

Revelation 14:9-11 - Those that worship the Beast and take his mark drink of the wine of the Wrath of God and will be thrown in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 21:8 - Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

Revelation 21:27 - Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:14 - Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.

Revelation 22:15 - Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 22:18 - If any man takes away from the prophecy of the book (i.e. the Scriptures), God will take away their name out of the Book of Life.

Source Used:
Your handy-dandy long list of verses against OSAS - BaptistBoard.com

tribesman · Mar 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Jesus called Judas a "devil". So he was never saved.

[h=3]John.6[/h][70] Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Click to expand...

kennethcadwell · Mar 5, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Exactly, as the Mosaic laws was given to the Jews and not the Gentiles.
Yet the Gentiles were still considered sinners before coming to Christ, and we had no law to try to be justified by. Sin is not just trying to be justified by the law, sin is also transgressing (breaking) the law. There is only one way we can sin being in Christ, and that is being driven away by our own lusts to give into them. And like James said if you let it get full grown again and control you, it will lead to death not eternal life.

RickyZ · Mar 5, 2015

tribesman said:

We were all devils. But we can be saved. Do you think satan could not be saved, if he were to repent?

WheresEnoch · Mar 6, 2015

RickyZ said:

I think that ship has sailed

WheresEnoch · Mar 6, 2015

RickyZ said:

His destruction has already been written.

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