bible interpretation

Enga · Mar 6, 2015

Dear friends thank you for all the answers . and secondly please do not support your church and not a Catholic . Thirdly , i think that we (all of us) have not receive the holy spirit, which should be the true church and and I know that the work of the holy spirit spirit ceased in the past but God has a plan and He make known the work the holy spirit which the apostles did in the past

God is the creator and every one on earth have witness his work and
Jesus Christ is the savour and every one knows it and his work was seen by evey one
But the work of the holy spirit does not come out clearly like the work of the father and the son. It ceased in the past and will start again.

mikeuk · Mar 6, 2015

tribesman said:

That is fine. I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything, other than pointing out obvious problems, and indeed Luther's observations are relevant: he abhorred the monster he more than anyone was instrumental in creating, but unable to put the genie back into the bottle. Saying he felt the councils were the only way back to unity.

So my question is what other solutions are there than mine?

Are we really destined as Christians to dissolve and fragment into tens of thousands of mutually contradictory beliefs and hostile arguments, most of which churches and denominations are by simple logic heretical. Since only one combination of doctrine can be "true", yet every combination is somewhere represented. I hate the idea of that fragmentation! It is hard enough to be Christian, even harder when we spend so much time and energy on in fighting.

And anyway - The bible says not.

Matthew 16:18 "and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." So the dissolution of the true church into an enormous number of contradictory and therefore heretical sects is expressly objected in that scripture.

So Jesus says he will not allow it so.

So if you want to know how I got there, this is one critical aspect of it. The lack of unity anywhere else proving the lack of universal truth.

I came back here wondering whether I had misjudged protestants and evangelicals, (many as people I both like and find committed to Christ) - but all I find is the very same disunity in doctrine as when I left. Indeed other issues, take the gay / abortion / remarriage issues, have made the situation of division a whole lot worse, and the tone of the acrimony is so much worse than I remember it.

Anyway, I have made my points. No need to repeat them.
I only came back because finally the forum was discussing what I think is one of the fundamental objections to the reformationist doctrines.
Lack of any unity at all, a problem which gets worse not better.

God bless all.
....................................................................

mikeuk · Mar 6, 2015

Enga said:

It is your thread, so by quoting it here...I will give you the last say on the matter!

I am not sure you meant "please do not support your church", so maybe you could clarify that..

fredjames · Mar 6, 2015

Enga said:

What is your own 'believe', according to the written New Covenant of LORD JESUS CHRIST?

JimmieD · Mar 6, 2015

Enga said:

Receiving the Holy Spirit doesn't alleviate the problems of human frailty, lack of knowledge, or lack of wisdom. The problem of how to interpret information you're presented is always present and always subject to our mistakes. People have a hard time telling the difference between the Holy Spirit and their own little inner voice, but sometimes people assume that whatever crops up in their head must be the Holy Spirit.

JimmieD · Mar 6, 2015

mikeuk said:

You will not like the answer, but it is indisputably true.
Because Sola scriptura "bible alone" itself is the problem.

Bible alone is not biblical!
Where in the bible does it say that something has to be in the bible to be true?
Bible alone is not logical!
And because it is not in the bible, it is therefore false in logic too - if the ultimate truth is "all necessary truth is contained in the bible (people even isagree on the meaning of sola scriptura) - then that ultimate truth should be in the bible, and it is not, so sola scriptura is logically false.
Bible alone is not historic!
When Jesus gave us the new covenant, he said "do this" not "write this". So few of the apostles did write, and what we know as the new testament was a couple of centuries in the making. For the early Christians truth was passed by word of mouth and tradition which is why apostle Paul tells you to stay hold true to the traditions told by "word of mouth and scripture" Scripture for Paul was the OT. The NT did not then exist.

So what do we know?
The bible (as for example Pauls letters) are hard to understand on its own. Even Peter says so in 2 peter 3:16
We are urged against private interpretation proverbs 3-5

Asking the spirit for guidance is not the answer either...
The idea that learned men asking the holy spirit for guidance will come to the same conclusion is proven totally false.
By the fact of tens of thousands of protestant denominations and schisms, and who knows how many "one man" denominations preaching "their version" of the truth. The holy spirit has only one truth, so most who say so are misguided.

So what is the truth?
The bible says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" NOT the bible..1 timothy 3:15
So then you ask which church? and the answer can hardly be any of the recent sects, formed as a fracture from a recent sect, destined to fracture in to more.
See the thread "heartbreaking" to see what happens when man ( a head pastor) is allowed to decide doctrine http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/109003-just-so-heartbreaking.html

Luther abhorred this saying every milkmaid had their own doctrine!
He said towards the end of his life:

“There are as many sects now and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow has nothing to do with baptism. Another one denies the sacraments. A third believes there is another world between this one and the last day. Some teach that Christ is not God. Some say this, some say that. There is no rustic so rude that if he dreams or fancies anything believes it must be the whisper of the Holy Spirit and that he himself must be a prophet.”

Luther was even more critical of the non denominational one man factions arising from self interpretation.

"In matters of faith, to be sure, each Christian is for himself Pope and Church.” “There will be the greatest confusion. Nobody will allow himself to be led by another man’s doctrine or authority. Everyone will be his own rabbi: hence, the greatest scandals.”
Notice the arguments on this forum!

He concludes wryly:
"If God had not closed my eyes, and if I had foreseen these scandals, I would never have begun to teach the gospel."
"If the world lasts, it will be necessary, on account of the differing interpretations of Scripture which now exist, that to preserve the unity of faith, we should receive the Catholic councils and decrees and fly to them for refuge."

That lack of authority in the light of disputes and clear ambiguities is why there are so many fractures

So the question is authority? Who speaks on behalf of the church?

The mark of a true denomination is one whose doctrine has lasted essentially unchanged for millenia.
There is only one. The early church was sacramental. Liturgical. Believed in real presence. Authority of bishops and succession. So conclude where logic takes you. You will not like the answer.

How does your solution actually solve the problem you present? Any sane person should realize that if you can't trust consensus of a bunch of learned men regarding some fact, then you certainly can't rely on just one of them.

(Of course, I've painted issues with a pretty broad brush....just as you have)

Jason0047 · Mar 6, 2015

mikeuk said:

A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

Sola Scriptura is the position that you can trust Scripture and Scripture alone as your sole authority for your faith and life. That the revelation known as the Bible can be trusted as your final word of authority for knowing God, salvation, true love, right living, and truth. Now, while there may be other books, letters, or epistles mentioned in Scripture that we don't have currently (see this link here), they are not a part of the cannon of God's Word today, for there is no other written texts or revelations that is needed besides the Bible for all spiritual matters. For the Bible is unlike any other book in human history. It is clearly a book that is divine in origin that is backed up by many evidences in Science and History (of which you can check out here).

Now, some might object and point out that you can't prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture because such a position wouldn't have existed until the close of Revelation because the apostles were still speaking and writing the Word of God. However, that is not Sola Scriptura, though. Sola Scriptura is putting your faith in the written Word of God and believing it is suffient for all matters concerning one's faith in God. But what about the spoken Word of God? Does that not conflict with Sola Scriptura? No. First, the spoken Word of God was confirmed by the written Word of God (Acts 17:11). Second, one truth (the Spoken Word of God) was not in conflict with another truth (i.e. the Written Word of God). They both breathed in harmony until one passed away. In other words, picture it in your mind that there are two branches or sticks. One branch represents the Spoken Word and the other branch represents the Written Word. Now imagine one of those branches starting to vanish away out of thin air until it is gone. Is the one branch that remains any different just because the other branch is gone? Yeah, but wouldn't Sola Scriptura only exist until after the close of Revelation with Revelation 22:18-19 because you can't add anymore words to God's Word? No. This is not an exclusive teaching within Scripture; For the Bible teaches elsewhere that we are not to add to the written Word of God, too (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Deuteronomy 12:32) (Proverbs 30:5-6).

Anyways, the purpose of this study is to provide passages to help the reader in possessing Scripture so that they can trust in one divinely inspired written revelation or book (i.e. the Bible) for all spiritual matters in regards to having love, faith, and salvation in Him.

Also, before we examine this study, it is important to note that there are 3 major Words spoken about within Scripture that are connected to one another. There is the:

(1) Living Word of God (Jesus),
(2) Spoken Word of God (Either from God or His people),
(3) Written Word of God (Scripture).

All three are perfect and will endure for forever.
All three are tied together and are always connected.

The Biblical Case for Sola Scriptura:

I. All Scripture is Profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Righteous Teaching.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

A. All Scripture is profitable:

(a) for doctrine, (because)

~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).

(b) for correction (and)

(c) for instruction in righteousness,
(It is sufficient in righteous training because):

~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalm 119:11)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:

(d) May be perfect.

(e) Completely furnished unto all good works.

~ (1) For speaking Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)
(In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect andcomplete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in (1) doctrine, (2)correction, and (3) training in righteousness. All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to beperfect and complete unto all good works. Not some good works. Butallgood works. No oral Words of God alone were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.

For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?

II. Do Not Add or Take Away or Go Beyond What is Written:

A. Do Not Add or Take Away From God's Word -

Revelation 22:18-19
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Before you say it, yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking in context of the book of Revelation. However, we have to think about this logically, though. If you can't add any words to the book of Revelation, then you can't add any words to the Bible, too. Why? Well, the book of Revelation is the end of the Bible. It is the close of the whole book known as the Bible. It is the end. This is why I believe Revelation 22:18-19 is prophetic in the fact that it has a secondary fulfillment of speaking about "this book" in reference to "Revelation" in being a part of the book known as the Bible. How so? Well, there are several passages that have a double fulfillment to them. Here is one them:

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

First Fulfillment (That was in the Past):
Reference to the exodus of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

Secondary Fulfillment (That was in the Future):
Reference to the Love of God calling his Son back to the comparative safety in Egypt so that he might die for his people. Matthew 2:15 - "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Also, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus gives His assessment of various churches. In these chapters, Jesus spoke of real churches that existed at the time when John written the book of Revelation, but also to the spiritual state of churches thru out time and today, too. For one of the churches is told to repent or they will go thru the tribulation. For obviously there has been Luke warm churches thru out history and today like the Laodician church.

Besides, there are hundreds of double fulfillment passages in the Bible. How so? Well, the "Typifications of Christ" in the Old Testament are essentially double fulfillment type passages (See this forum thread here to check them out). In fact, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). In other words, the OT Scriptures are a double fulfilment. For the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of the events of it's time and they also spoke about Jesus Christ, too; For Jesus said so Himself.

Also, consider the prophecy in the book of Daniel which was to seal up vision and prophecy versus the prophecy of the book of Revelation which is not sealed.

~ Daniel's End Times prophecy speaks of the events in Revelation. These prophecies of the End Times (that were in a book, i.e. scroll) were to be sealed up and closed (Daniel 12:4) because they were a far way off because Jesus still needed to come to save His people from their sins.

Revelation 22:10 mentions the spirit of prophecy that the book is open.

~ Now, the book is open whereby the things within Revelation (That Daniel also talks about) is exposed so that it will be fulfilled in bringing in the End with Christ's return.

For the entire book of Revelation is about the End Times leading up to Christ's return.

For the end of Revelation closes with Jesus saying,

"Surely I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20).

This means that we should be looking to Jesus return and not some new Revelation.

Paul said if we or an angel from heaven preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8). It is strange that both the Mormon and the Muslim religion are founded on a revelation that comes from angels. Yet the Bible warns against this very thing.

In fact, Jesus Christ commanded that we as believers were to preach this gospel unto all the world (or all nations) until Christ's return.

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is also what we see in Revelation. For this same gospel message was still going out to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (That is still an ongoing process today).

Revelation 14:6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

In other words, God knew that the book of Revelation was going to be a part of the Bible. For surely God does not want us accepting new revelations or additional written works to add to the Bible like with the book of Mormon, the Koran, the added oral traditions of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church), and or the added writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For it is not a coincidence that this warning in Revelation 22 is at the close of our Bibles. In other words, the new reader (Who is unaware that the Bible is made up of 66 books) would understand that you are not to add or subtract from the book (i.e. the Bible) that they were reading. For God obviously intended Scripture to be compiled into one book known as the Bible. For Christians today do regard the Bible as one book, for it is published as one book and it is not generally published into 66 individual books or a 66 book volume set. There are no 66 individual old manuscripts in their original form anymore; And God does not exist in the past abiding with these old manuscripts. These manuscripts are dead and gone. For they were written in a language that is dead. All these things are in the past. However, our God is not a God who just exists in the past. Our God is present and ever active with His people today. For our God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He works with His people who are alive with the written Revelation known as the Bible. Adding any new words to that revelation would be adding to God's Holy written Word as it currently exists with His people who live today.

B. Warning Against Altering God's Word is Confirmed in Old Testament:

Forbidding in altering God's Word in Revelation 22:18-19 can also be seen in Deuteronomy 4:2and Deuteronomy 12:32 which says not to add or take away from the words of God's commands. This was the written Word. The Law. God did not want His words being changed or altered in any way by adding or taking away from His words. In fact, if somebody were to try and destroy God's Word, we see that God would protect or preserve His Word. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 36:22-32where king Jehoiakim burns the scroll in a fire (i.e. to eliminate God's Word) and then later God has Jeremiah re-create another roll that says the same thing. In other words, the written Word could not be destroyed by fire, just as the Living Word cannot be destroyed by fire. For the fourth who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends was the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). For even when Moses had broken or shattered the tablets of stone that had the direct hand written Word of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) on it (Exodus 32:19), the Lord our God had hand written them down on tablets of stone again (Exodus 34:1). For the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35). For Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35). Meaning, that Christ's words would be memorialized by being written down where they would not pass away (or be deleted by men).

C. Do Not Go Above What is Written on how we think about men:

The Bible says we are not to go above that which is written (concerning our thoughts of men). Granted, this verse is not all inclusive to the fact that we are not to go above Scripture on other matters, but what this passage does is show us a pattern that Scripture and Scripture alone is our sole authority on the faith and spiritual matters. It confirms that we are not to add or take away from God's Word.

1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

Jason0047 · Mar 6, 2015

III. Scripture Can Help us to Know the Certainty of Christ's Teachings.

Luke sets out an order of declaration amongst the ministers of the Word to write out the events in order to Theophilus so that he might know for certain of the truth (on Christ's teachings) which he had been instructed.

Luke 1:1-4
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

IV. Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:

In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18;Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus inMatthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the amor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, 16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

V. Spoken Word is confirmed by the Written Word. Acts 17-11

In Acts 17:11, we learn that the Bereans were more noble because they received the "Spoken Word of God" from Paul and Silas with an open mind but yet they searched the Scriptures (i.e. the Written Word of God) to see whether those things were so or not. So the "Spoken Word" is confirmed by the "Written Word." So the "Written Word" is a reliable authority that we can trust. For even Philip opened the heart of the Ethiopian's understanding from a reading in Isaiah (Thereby confirming the Written Word of God) (Acts 8:26-35). Jesus had opened the disciple's understanding on the Scriptures when He was with them (Luke 24:32); And Paul had told the Corinthians that their words that they speak in Christ (i.e. the Spoken Word of God) were not like as with many others who had corrupted the Word of God (i.e. the Written Word of God) (2 Corinthians 2:17).

VI. 1 Corinthians 14-37 - What Paul had written is the Lord's commandments.

Paul had written to the Corinthians about how if anyone thought of themselves as spiritual or a prophet, they were to know that what he had written unto them was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In other words, the "Written of God" that came from Paul was the Lord's Commandments; And by the authority of the Lord: Paul gave commands to the brethren in doing many things (1 Corinthians 7:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6, 12) (1 Timothy 4:11) (1 Timothy 6:11, 12, 13, 14).

VII. The spoken/written Word is standard by which Jesus will Judge All Men.

John 12:48 essentially says, Christ will judge us by His Word in the last day.
Christ's spoken words have been memorialized within the Holy Scriptures for us to have faith in them. His words within the Bible will judge us in the last day.

In fact, the unsaved dead will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment in this life by what is written in various books of Judgment (Revelation 20:12). This shows us that the written Word of God has power and authority to judge just as the books of Judgment have power and authority to judge a person's actions on the last day.

For all believers will be judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12). This is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the royal Law of love under the New Testament (James 2:8) (Romans 13:8-10).

VIII. John's Gospel is sufficient alone for saving faith in Jesus Christ.

What is purpose of John's book or gospel?

John 20:30-31 says,
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God.

mikeuk · Mar 6, 2015

Jason0047 said:

None of which rebuts the proof I gave above, that sola scriptura is neither biblically, logically nor historically defensible.

Sure, all scripture is valuable, all of us Christians believe it , and scripture says it.

It is poles apart from sola scriptura, and the argument is irrefutable which is "if the highest truth is that scripture contains all necessary truth," it would have to say so explicitly for it to be logically consistent and therefore true, that it contains all truth and therefore contains explicit reference to sola scriptura.

So sola scriptura is an unscriptural belief.

Your post fails to address the greater issue and thread matter of interpretation rather than content, so that thousands of readers arrive at different interpretations, so there is a missing piece which is without authority and tradition the unique truth cannot be determined, all become their own authority which is the reason for endless fracture and dispute, provable in the arguments on this forum.

Really, I have said my last words on this.

I think we would all do well to focus on what unites us, in love of god and neighbour, not on our differences.

Jason0047 · Mar 6, 2015

mikeuk said:

Making a large brush stroke claim that you are right and I am wrong on Sola Scriptura had nothing to do with you actually taking the time to look at those verses to see whether those things be so or not like a good Berean would do. Otherwise, you would have at least addressed one of the verses I brought it. What this actually has to do with is your church's beliefs which is in direct conflict with God's Word. However, at the end of the day, everyone will have to answer to how they responded to God and His Word and not to some men who appear outwardly religious to the masses. I mean, think about it. Jesus warned us of men like this when he said, "Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at the feasts;" (Luke 20:46).

When I read that verse, the men in your church is the first ones that come to my mind.

What sayest thou?

JimmieD · Mar 6, 2015

mikeuk said:

Of course, if you have an authority figure, it might also be the case that the authority figure requires an interpretation. Normal communication is naturally fuzzy and always includes gray areas that require the individual to understand the intent and context in order to interpret the message. Simply inserting authority figures into the equation seems to ignore the fact that those authority figures themselves must be interpreted by individuals. You cannot avoid the conclusion that somewhere along the line, individuals are going to have to interpret something, and so they will naturally have to "become their own authority" in the interpretation of the message. All you do by inserting a string or collection of authority figures is insert another layer of and exposure to human error. It doesn't de facto fix the issue you have with people "being their own authority." Nobody can get around this issue because at some point the individual will have to decide how to interpret any particular message.

It's not enough to claim that sola scriptura is wrong due to the fact that many people come up with different interpretations. People will come to different interpretations on anything and everything. People come to different interpretations on things even as rigorous as mathematical models and scientific rigor.

I would argue that when trying to understand something, it's best to get as close to the source as possible and focus on the methods used to understand that something. So if I want to understand what Jesus said, it's better to get as close to the source (Jesus) as I can (through things like the gospels and the epistles) and focus on the methods used to understand what I'm reading (eg, author's intent, context, setting, genre, etc..). It's much better to do this than insert a collection of authority figures stretching through time that tell me what Jesus meant. While this may be historically interesting, it inserts another layer of interpretation, another layer of and exposure to human error, and forces me to interpret more things rather than just focusing on source material.

Tintin · Mar 6, 2015

mikeuk said:

You seem very sure of yourself. Yes, there were plenty of gnostic 'gospels' being written and circulated around the same time but there was never any doubt as to the inspired books that later made up the Bible. The gnostic 'gospels' were poorly-written, hyper-spiritual clap-trap. Christians had no problem seeing the contradictory nature of them, as opposed to the truth-informing, inspired books. It was pretty well established, long before the canon was 'officially' closed, which books were and weren't inspired by God. Post-modern academia and bible theologians and scholars (not all, but many) seem to study the Bible and Church history to discredit it, rather than learn more to accept it and better understand God's Word.

fordman · Mar 6, 2015

Jason0047 said:

This is a common mistake of believers if the Sola Scriptura doctrine. Nowhere.... nowhere in Scripture you provided does it say that the bible alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith. Take 2 Timothy 3:16–17 for example. Many believrs of Sola Scriptura claim that this passage says Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith. that would be incorrect! An examination of the verse in context shows that it doesn’t claim that at all; it only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what Protestants/ nonCatholics think the passage means.

Futhermore, if you were to see the true the context of 2 Timothy 3:16–17, you would see that Paul is laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you haveheard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.

So you see, nowhwre does Scripture says that the "bible Alone' is sufficient as a sole rule of faith. If you disagree, show me!

Pax Christi

"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ----Luke 1:48.

elf3 · Mar 6, 2015

I find it interesting that some believe the Bible is the final authority on truth yet rely on some "person" to give them the interpretation. Where is the Holy Spirit in that? Not only that but there are a couple references to "tradition". What happens if tradition is wrong? What if the one person we listen too had things all messed up? Do we really rely upon people or do we rely on the Holy Spirit? Yes we can use learned people to help with interpretation but when those learned people rely on someone else to make their interpretation can we actually believe what they say? The RCC has a history of saying the Pope's interpretation of Scripture is above Scripture so who is more Sovereign? Is the Pope more Sovereign than God? Is tradition more important than Scripture? I dare say that those being lead blindly will end up with a bloody nose or worse.

The Bible has more authority than any person here on earth. If you don't believe me then you must not believe the Bible IS The Word Of God! If the Bible is the Word of God then how can any man have more authority than Christ Jesus? John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Jesus IS the Word so if Jesus is the Word then how can any man have more authority than the Word of God.

So Sola Scriptura or does man decide what is the truth? Quite a question eh?

MarcR · Mar 7, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Bible interpretation is called "hermeneutics." It is both a science and an art.

Sadly, most people do not have a clue the basics of how to rightly divide the Word of God, and that is where errors creep in.

I was going to do a whole post on good hermeneutics, and correct exegesis, which is looking into the words, the passages and taking OUT of them what God is saying, rather than taking an opinion or dogma, and reading into the Bible.

I may get around to that post yet, if my health would just improve a tiny bit!

"Exegesis is the first part of the bible interpretation process.Essentially, it is the grammatical, historical and cultural study of a passage of the Bible to try to determine its meaning to the original audience.
It is trying to answer the question: "What was God trying to say to the original hearers of a particular text?"
Too often we start from the perspective of what this texts means to me. It is a subjective way to read the Scriptures and has the potential to severely misinterpret a passage of Scripture.
Thus, it is critically important to engage in exegesis to try to the original message of the author.
In order to understand the word of God for our modern context, we must first understand the word of God for its ancient context."

"Hermeneutics, properly speaking is the art and science of biblical interpretation and comes from the Greek term, hermeneuo, which means to interpret or to explain.
Hermeneutics essentially incorporates all of the tools and techniques that make up the process of biblical interpretation.
It not only includes exegesis (the study of the Bible to understand a passage in its ancient context), but also includes models for applying a biblical passage to a modern context.
As mentioned in our previous example, you cannot jump directly from the biblical passage to our modern context without doing an injustice to the Bible and without coming up with some strange doctrine or practice within the Christian church."

Bible Interpretation - Lesson 1.2 - Defining Exegesis and Hermeneutics

This is seriously the reason for much of the disagreements that go on in the church today. And no, the RCC does not have a superior right to interpret the Bible, based on false claims of apostolic succession.

And yes, some people don't really know Jesus at all, do not have the Holy Spirit working in their hearts and lives, and that can lead to very wrongly interpreting the Bible.

And of course, there are the many with a favourite doctrine that they pull Scriptures out of context to prove their point. That is where a good understanding of hermeneutics comes in. And why those bad doctrines keep coming back, because people do not properly interpret the Bible.

I totally agree!

Reading correspondence of an historically prominent individual with his contemporaries is usually the historian's starting place in understanding a period of time past.

From this perspective we well might say "when reading someone else's mail, it is helpful to know the background and concerns of both the writer and the intended reader.

Tintin · Mar 7, 2015

Yes, the age of the universe and everything in it (thank you, Douglas Adams!) isn't a salvation issue, but it certainly can be one or at the very least, be a significant stumbling block for many. For example, if you can't trust the Bible from the beginning sentence, what makes you think you can believe anything/everything that follows in later books? When does history begin? There has to be a real Adam at the beginning of time, for there to need to be a real last Adam, Jesus Christ and for the God/man's sacrifice to mean anything and accomplish anything.

Eva1218 · Mar 7, 2015

Many question this and the Bible answers by telling us that what we all must believe and must line up to GOD's WORD, so now one must ask first who is GOD and what is HIS WORD. For one to truly know this they must first believe on JESUS CHRIST by doing so they are given by the FATHER through JESUS the HOLY SPIRIT. HE (HOLY SPIRIT) does not teach wrongly therefore one will never be ignorant to GOD's WORD. Next what is GOD's WORD HOLY SPIRIT teaches us that it is JESUS CHRIST. John 14:268, Matthew 16:13-18

Anyone that goes against GOD is considered false. We all must go by the Leading of the HOLY SPIRIT and not our own understanding because ones understanding is so very far from GOD's, also in our mind is a battlefield it is where satan plots schemes to cause us to think outside of GOD. This is why it is of extreme importance to seek GOD daily in all things. Even in biblical times JESUS came across those who claimed to know and felt they had an extreme intelligence of the teachings of GOD. The Bible calls them Pharisees and Sadducees, they who claimed to have Godly Wisdom did not even accept JESUS! Imagine that so this tells us that we must be very careful on what we believe and when GOD HIMSELF tells us the TRUTH we must change our thinking. Thus GOD calls it having a renewed mind anything outside of that one is brainwashed.

Notice one can have many religions but one can only have one true relationship with GOD HIMSELF. Notice that even though JESUS taught multitudes HE always had personal encounters as well. It is when one truly has a personal
encounter that ones eyes open. Many want the miracles and the titles without truly experiencing GOD thus we have many churches and multitudes of lost souls, evil, sin, violence and death. The greatest influence to distract one from GOD is satan, who puts in ones mind and heart there is no GOD, or follow false gods this pollutes the minds and distorts the heart of mankind.

The Bibles teaches us that many will come to GOD saying I have done this and that and GOD will say depart from ME I never knew you or Well Done MY good and faithful servant this shows we must have a relationship with GOD.

Blessings!!!!!!!

fordman · Mar 7, 2015

elf3 said:

Okay..... Then provide a passage or verse in Scripture where it states that the bible alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith.

Pax Christi

"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ----Luke 1:48.

oldhermit · Mar 7, 2015

fordman said:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." 2Tim. 3:16-17. No one else and nothing else can make this claim. Since this is true, only scripture is sufficient to accomplish these thing in us. Only the Word of God is inspired.

KJV1611 · Mar 7, 2015

fordman said:

Where else does truth come from fordman?

bible interpretation

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