Ukraine media falsely claim Dutch prosecutors accused Russia of MH17 downing

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Skinski7

Banned
Nov 26, 2011
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Ukraine media falsely claim Dutch prosecutors accused Russia of MH17 downing
[video=youtube;6HJqu6jbQaY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HJqu6jbQaY[/video]

Article with false claims in Ukraine media...
Боинг-777 над Донбассом сбил российский «Бук» : Бук, Донбасс, самолет, прокуратура, Нидерланды (2015.03.05 09:48) | KPUNEWS


Skinski's note:-

I think it is important to remember that the shooting down of MH17 is not a black and white situation. Even if one of the militia groups did shoot it down it still begs the question as to why a civilian aircraft was cleared to fly over a war zone in which aircraft had been previously been shot down. The Ukrainian airforce were engaged in sorties attacking ground targets and there were even reports, given prior to the shooting down of MH17, of Ukrainian planes using civilian planes to protect their approach. Thus any aircraft flying over such an area is susceptible to being shot down.

It is the truth that should be important, not the geopolitical games which drive propaganda.

The RT story above gives a good example of why we should all be in the habit of verifying what we hear lest we ourselves be partakers in the spread of lies.
 
Ukrainian media were just repeating a report first made by Dutch media.

Dutch authorities refute reports over results of MH17 investigation

Dutch police and public prosecutors have issued a joint statement refuting a report by Dutch public broadcaster 'NOS' which claimed the investigation into the MH17 tragedy had already concluded that the airliner was downed by a Russian BUK missile system.
[Emphasis added]
So once again, you have unfairly and irrationally attacked someone in Ukraine for something others did.

Getting tired of having your stories refuted yet, Skin? Or are you just going to keep pretending that hasn't happened?
 
I got a laugh as soon as I read "The RT story" yeah Russia Today, like they are going to ever make the Putin regime look bad.
 
Ukrainian media were just repeating a report first made by Dutch media.

So once again, you have unfairly and irrationally attacked someone in Ukraine for something others did.

Getting tired of having your stories refuted yet, Skin? Or are you just going to keep pretending that hasn't happened?

Unfairly and irrationally?

All you have done is link an article from December 1st, 2014...

Dutch authorities refute reports over results of MH17 investigation - watch on - uatoday.tv

An article which refutes a Dutch public broadcaster for a false statement made in 2014.

Dutch police and public prosecutors have issued a joint statement refuting a report by Dutch public broadcaster 'NOS' which claimed the investigation into the MH17 tragedy had already concluded that the airliner was downed by a Russian BUK missile system. [Emphasis added]


Please explain to me what that has to do with an RT story released on the 5th of March, 2015...

Ukraine media falsely claim Dutch prosecutors accused Russia of MH17 downing — RT News

Which refutes Ukrainian media releases from the same day of 5th of March, 2015. Media releases like the following...

Boeing 777 shot down over Donbass by Russian "Buk"
Боинг-777 над Донбассом сбил российский «Бук» : Бук, Донбасс, самолет, прокуратура, Нидерланды (2015.03.05 09:48) | KPUNEWS

which state...

Malaysian Airlines aircraft Boeing 777 was shot down over the Donbas from the Russian SAM "Buk". According to the press service of the Prosecutor's Office of the Netherlands.





You appear so enamoured with your point of view that you don't even take the time to do any proper research, yet alone read the dates and context of your "evidence" and all you have really done is just embarrassed yourself in front of anyone who critically thinks. I am sure there are many people who will just take what you have written at face value because it suits their paradigm just like it suits yours.


You serve as a PERFECT EXAMPLE of a problem evident in the world today. People like you don't even take the time to seriously examine an issue before forming a conclusion. People like you charge in with your mind already made up and then when your view comes under challenge you respond in a very irrational manner by selectively fishing for any information that will appear to support your view.


I am very critical of people who take this approach with the Bible. There are multitudes of people who have never seriously examined an issue and just accept something at face value because it appeals to their sensitivities. Thus false doctrines like Original Sin and false views of why Jesus died are allowed to flourish, namely the substitutional views of Satisfaction, Moral Government and the worst offender of all, Penal Substitution.

I am very critical of people who take this approach because they don't really care about the truth and often evidence dishonest when challenged. Many people already know what they believe and do not wish to be concerned by the facts.

Please don't be like that, it won't end well.

Pro 14:3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

It is the truth which sets us free, not our opinions. We have to be DILIGENT and HONEST in seeking the truth on any matter and also be humble in order to receive the truth and subject our opinions to it.
 
Unfairly and irrationally?

All you have done is link an article from December 1st, 2014...

Dutch authorities refute reports over results of MH17 investigation - watch on - uatoday.tv
Interesting that you don't bother to note that the Ukrainian story you linked is almost verbatim to the Dutch NOS story from December. So, if you can explain why it isn't unfair and irrational to criticize the Ukrainian media and give NOS a pass, I'd be happy to listen. Otherwise, your rant against the Ukrainian media and, even more irrationally, against me, is a perfect waste of page space and a needless irritation of trillions of electrons.
 
For the record I am not "pro-Russian." I am "pro-truth."

I am no fan of the Russian government, its restriction on freedom of speech, nor am I a fan of a Russian nationalism which fans the flames of a superiority complex. I am also opposed to collectivism in all its forms because I uphold the individual as being far more important than any collective group, whether it be a race, ethnicity or idealogy.

Yet even with myself not being much of a fan of Russia I don't let that cloud my view of the west and so called "Freedom and Democracy."

"Freedom and Democracy" are Public Relations buzz terms utilised to effectual garner the public support for an underlying agenda of a one world political state where nations are merely "nation states" subject to a central governing authority.

This agenda is clearly documented in works like Tragedy and Hope and the Anglo-American Establishement by Carrol Quigley, the latter is annotated whilst the former is not. Yet Carrol Quigley was an insider who wrote honestly, albeit dryly, in regards to the agenda by the international banking elites. He saw value in this agenda and thought it valuable to write about it as he thought it was a meritorious undertaking which should not remain in the shadows of history.

The agenda is also clearly documented in the writings of a multitude of occult authors who collectively belong to what is known as the Mystery Schools. This consists of the various fraternal orders and occult organisations which have a teaching mechanism realised through the means of an initiatory degree structure. They are able to keep their philosophy relatively hidden to those they consider as "immature" via the slow indoctrination process the occult operates by.

The United States is a nation which is not only currently being used to achieve the goals of this agenda but has been being used for a considerable amount of time. The basic framework of a world government structure has slowly been constructed via the use of international treaties in the spheres of economics, culture, environment and religion. It can really be summed up in the words from an article written by Richard Gardner which appeared in Foreign Relations in 1974...

In short, the "house of world order" will have to be built from the bottom up rather than from the top down. It will look like a great "booming, buzzing confusion," to use William James' famous description of reality, but an end run around national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece, will accomplish much more than the old-fashioned frontal assault.

I could espouse a great deal of information on this subject as it was something I studied for many years back in my activist days before I realised how it was all a waste of time when it is put in context of the teachings of Jesus.

Anyway in regards to Ukraine. I assure you the events in Ukraine have everything to do with a greater geopolitical strategy engineered in furtherance of a world government. I recommend people read "The Grand Chessboard" by Zbigniew Brezinski as he outlines the issue of Ukraine very clearly and how control of Ukraine is central to the Russian question. This is why the western media is basically ignoring what is really going on in Ukraine and presenting a sanitised and inaccurate version.

The hardliners in Russia as well as Putin are opposed to a world agenda dominated by the United States (which is just an agency of international banking interests). My perspective of the reasons for this I don't really need to elaborate here. Suffice to say it is not in the Russian interest to have a U.S. puppet government in Kiev and that they are working to undermine and destroy that government.

The people in the Donbass are caught in the middle and the west no doubt has a lot of blood on its hands. The Kiev government has not been called on to account for the murder of civilians by their military nor for the whitewashing they continually do. Nor are they called on to account for the radical neo-Nazi nationalism which is a key issue that the people of the Donbass have.

By presenting the conflict within the context of "territorial integrity" and "Russia as the bad guy" is a complete whitewash of the situation and will only certainly lead to much more blood shed. Whilst the common people of the west may not be directly responsible, we are most certainly indirectly responsible when we nod our head to the lies which promote the blood shed.

It is much the same as a porn watcher not being directly responsible for an actual abortion, yet they are indirectly responsible by supporting a medium which results in such atrocities.

A Christian is meant to be a light to the world who have had their eyes open. There are no "good guys" and "bad guys" in these conflicts. Satan rules over all sides and we ought to contend against the vanity in this world by exposing it for what it is and call people to righteousness.

Think about it.
 
Interesting that you don't bother to note that the Ukrainian story you linked is almost verbatim to the Dutch NOS story from December. So, if you can explain why it isn't unfair and irrational to criticize the Ukrainian media and give NOS a pass, I'd be happy to listen. Otherwise, your rant against the Ukrainian media and, even more irrationally, against me, is a perfect waste of page space and a needless irritation of trillions of electrons.

Why do you honestly even bother?

It seems you have an issue with the western view being challenged at all.

If I were to post an address by the Iranian Ayatollah where he condemns nuclear weapons in an Iranian or Netanyahu thread would be consider it an affront too? Would you then accuse me of being a Moslem supporter or something? There are plenty of lies in the western version of Iran too. In fact it just came to mind that it was the United States who accidentally shot down an Iranian commercial airliner killing all 200+ people on board in the 80s. I haven't seen that mentioned in any MH17 stories yet. The hypocrisy in this world is stunning.

So what if the latest Ukrainian misrepresentation is similar to a previous representation that was refuted. The fact that you rushed to cherry pick anything that you thought would refute something that you had "already decided" couldn't be true is clear evidence you don't really care about the truth. You care about your paradigm.

Why do you think I have to note that the NOS story is similar to the current Ukrainian story? Isn't that obvious? They both talk about a Buk missile, yet they are still different in the sources they cite. How did I give NOS a pass? Do I have to cite every news story that relates to a misrepresentation in Ukraine for you to be happy?

If what I write is a perfect waste of space then ignore it.

If what I write is inaccurate then prove it inaccurate with evidence. Don't merely spout vague rhetoric and call me irrational. You haven't posted anything of substance here.
 
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I am very critical of people who take this approach with the Bible. There are multitudes of people who have never seriously examined an issue and just accept something at face value because it appeals to their sensitivities. Thus false doctrines like Original Sin and false views of why Jesus died are allowed to flourish, namely the substitutional views of Satisfaction, Moral Government and the worst offender of all, Penal Substitution.

penal substitution is exactly how the bible explains christ's death...'he was pierced for our transgressions' etc.

so not only are you a reality denying russophile...you are also a scripture denying heretic...
 
Nor are they called on to account for the radical neo-Nazi nationalism which is a key issue that the people of the Donbass have.

enough with this lie already...'neo nazi nationalism' is not an motivating issue for the separatists...half of whom are -themselves- neo nazis...the neo nazi scare tactic is just a russian propaganda attempt at justifying the unjustifiable...

recently a spanish citizen who had gone to eastern ukraine to fight alongside the separatists has said flat out that half of his comrades were communists and the other half were nazis...so your continued attempts to assert moral high ground against 'neo nazis' is just more hypocrisy...
 
penal substitution is exactly how the bible explains christ's death...'he was pierced for our transgressions' etc.

so not only are you a reality denying russophile...you are also a scripture denying heretic...


The Penal Substitution view is only 400 years old and was never taught before the 1600s. The early church did not consist of scripture denying heretics because they upheld Ransom, Christus Victor, Moral Influence and Recapitulation. Not am I a scripture denying heretic because I uphold the same.

Information Links

Christus Victor (early church)
Christus Victor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Moral Influence (early church)
Moral influence theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Moral_Influence_theory

Recapitulation (early church)
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Ransom (early church)
Ransom theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Satisfaction (11th Century)
Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Satisfaction theory of the atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Moral Government (16th Century)
Governmental theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Governmental theory of atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Penal Substitution (16th Century)
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Penal substitutionary atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Atonement
Atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity


I try to present substance in my posts as opposed to vacuous accusations and rhetoric.
 
enough with this lie already...'neo nazi nationalism' is not an motivating issue for the separatists...half of whom are -themselves- neo nazis...the neo nazi scare tactic is just a russian propaganda attempt at justifying the unjustifiable...

If that is the case then all the civilian people interviewed in the following documentary are actors.

A Special film for Europe, see what the Ukrainian fascists and Poroshenko do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTbRfkSOYi0
(WARNING 18+ - Contains Graphic Imagery of War Atrocities)

Half of the people fighting for the NAF are not neo-nazis. There are some elements present from far right groups in Europe who oppose the European Union in favour of nationalism and some of these nationalists do indeed embody neo-nazi sentiment.

Communist sentiment is far more prolific amongst the NAF due to that being the antithesis (in their minds) of Western imperialism. I don't support any of that idealogy at all. There is evil on both sides of the conflict yet we have to all take a step back and look at the situation for what it is. The people in Donbass have great concerns with the radical nationalism which has risen to power since Maiden and rightly so. To deny it as a fiction of Russian propaganda is to deny reality.

The Right Sector marches in the streets are not fictions. The armed neo-Nazi paramilitary groups are not fictions.

recently a spanish citizen who had gone to eastern ukraine to fight alongside the separatists has said flat out that half of his comrades were communists and the other half were nazis...so your continued attempts to assert moral high ground against 'neo nazis' is just more hypocrisy...

It is not the Spanish at the core of the people of Donbass. Anyone can volunteer to fight for the NAF and I am sure they will accept almost anyone. A radical spanish nationalist or communist does in no way negate the reality of radical nationalism in Ukraine. You ought not look at one evil and think it cancels out another. Again there is evil on both sides of the conflict. Remember Satan is the god of this world in the sense that it is his spiritual influence which rules over those who walk after the flesh.

The entire conflict is of the carnal mind, from both sides.

Yet in the West the truth is severely distorted due to the overarching geopolitical agenda at work, namely the containment of Russia. Russia (who lies too) does not need to misrepresent the conflict like the West because the region in conflict is sympathetic to Russian culture and the region is genuinely hostile to what has occurred in Maiden. The West cannot present that view and appear legitimate in promoting Kiev and that is why the west is forced to lie.
 
Video Evidence of Radical Nationalism in Ukraine

Young Ukrainians: "Moskal (i.e. Russian) to the gallows! Who is not jumping is a moscovite." [English subtitles]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBSQVkXXQOs

Fascists Creating Child Soldiers in Ukraine | Ukraine War 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPcilPbC0uA

Pro-war torchlight rallies in Kherson, Kyiv, & Odessa. Right Sector & Svoboda "Hang the Moskals" (Jan 29, 2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ux4W5tU87U

28 November, 2013 - "Who is not jumping is a moscovite."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMITXQuvURk#t=25

16 March, 2014 - "Who is not jumping is a moscovite."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6rfqr9afMc


Glory to Ukraine
Glory to Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[h=2]In popular culture[/h] It became widely used throughout Ukraine in the years following Ukrainian independence. "Glory to heroes!" was also used by the Kuban Cossacks dating back to at least 1944 with the return of the Cossack Rebel Army who fought with the UPA, but it is more likely that it dates to Kuban Cossack participation in the Uprising of Cold Ravine against the Bolsheviks early in the 1920s.[SUP][3][/SUP] The slogan became popular as an exclamation during mass sporting events, particularly in Western and Central Ukraine.[SUP][4][/SUP]
It is sometimes accompanied by other slogans, such as:
Москалів на ножі![SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP] - Muscovites on knives!Комуняку на гіляку![SUP][6][/SUP] (also used by Ukrainian politicians, such as Oleh Lyashko[SUP][7][/SUP]) - Hang the Communist!Москаляку на гіляку![SUP][8][/SUP] - Hang the Muscovite!Хто не скаче, той москаль![SUP][9][/SUP] - Who does not jump is a Muscovite! A political distortion of a common football slogan. A Russophobic version also existed in Denmark: Dem der ikke hopper de elsker Putin! which means Who does not jump loves Putin!.Путін - хуйло! - Putin is a xxxxhead!
Хутін - пуй![SUP][10][/SUP][SUP][11][/SUP] (Путін - хуй! with first consonants swapped) - Putin is a xxxx!
Бандера - наш герой![SUP][12][/SUP] - Bandera is our hero!Бандера, Шухевич - наші герої![SUP][13][/SUP] (most commonly used in L'viv) - Bandera, Shukhevych are our heroes!


Then put all that in the context of...

Ethnolingusitic_map_of_ukraine.jpg
 
Here is a Dutch report on the influence of Stepan Bandera in Ukraine.

[video=youtube;HNPMyxuz1Qg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNPMyxuz1Qg[/video]
 
Is it surprising there is concern when there is rhetoric like this...
[video=youtube;CCQkCzoVUvE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCQkCzoVUvE[/video]

Look at the disgust on the face of the lady at the start when the MP states there is no such thing as the Russian language in Ukraine.
 
Here is an NBC News lie about Ukraine.

RAW: Ukraine Soup Kitchen Hit By Rebel Rocket Fire | NBC News
[video=youtube;qF0fcxm8UFE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF0fcxm8UFE[/video]


Here is the original footage by USA photographer Patrick Lancaster...

UNDER FIRE: community soup kitchen in LNR conrolled Pervomaisk hit by Ukraine Grad Rockets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nFZvtLwFlM

Patrick Lancaster has stated today that...

NBC News reporting LIES...I filmed this. They were Ukraine Army Rockets not Rebels. In my original the woman says it herself here it is:
 
Here is another example of how the media lies about Ukraine. In this video you will see a news report where one of the victims from the Volnovkha bus tragedy is interviewed. After that interview you will see the original raw stock footage of the interview being conducted and how much of it is contrived, including the head bandages.

[video=youtube;2W9UAMEk21s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W9UAMEk21s[/video]
 
Meet the women soldiers fighting to keep Ukraine unified (Vanity Fair)
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/02/women-soldiers-ukraine-photos#10

Ukr_Female_Fighter.jpg

Nazi SS Dirlwange Brigade Insignia
36divss.gif
36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1488

The Fourteen Words is a phrase used predominantly by white nationalists. It most commonly refers to a 14-word slogan: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children."[SUP][1][/SUP] It can also refer to another 14-word slogan: "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth."[SUP][2][/SUP]
Origin

Both slogans were coined by David Lane, convicted terrorist and member of the white separatist organization The Order. The first slogan was inspired by a statement, 88 words in length, from Volume 1, Chapter 8 of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf:
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. Every thought and every idea, every doctrine and all knowledge, must serve this purpose. And everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.
Neo-Nazis often combine the number 14 with 88, as in "14/88" or "1488". The 8s stand for the eighth letter of the alphabet (H), with "HH" standing for "Heil Hitler".[SUP][3][/SUP]


Fourteen Words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




 
Azov Battalion
106px-Emblem_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg.png
The battalion's commander is Andriy Biletsky (Ukrainian: Андрій Білецький). In its early days, Azov was the Ministry of Internal Affairs special police company, led by Volodymyr Shpara (Ukrainian: Володимир Шпара), the leader of the Vasylkiv's Patriot of Ukraine and Right Sector organizations in the Kiev region.[SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] Biletsky stayed out of the public spotlight working on expanding Azov to battalion size. In summer 2014 he took the command of the unit in his own hands; Shpara remained in the battalion as the commander of the 1st Company. Biletsky is also the head of two neo-Nazi political groups, Patriot of Ukraine and Social-National Assembly.[SUP][14][/SUP]
Azov Battalion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Wolfsangel_2.png
Also known as: Wolf's Hook, Dopplehaken
The Wolfsangel is an ancient runic symbol that was believed to be able to ward off wolves. Historically, it appeared in Germany in many places, ranging from guidestones on the sides of roads to heraldic use in the coats of arms of various towns; there is even a German city called Wolfsangel. Along with many other runic symbols, Nazi Germany appropriated the Wolfsangel. It appeared as part of the divisional insignia of several Waffen-SS units, including the notorious 2nd SS "Das Reich" Panzer Division. As a result, it became a symbol of choice for neo-Nazis in Europe and the United States. In the United States, the neo-Nazi group Aryan Nations incorporated the Wolfsangel into their logo.
Wolfsangel - ADL
Wolfsangel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




500px-Black_Sun.svg.png
Black Sun (occult symbol) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
you are deliberately missing the point...

everyone knows there is a small neo nazi minority in ukraine...just like in virtually every other european country...

but the fact is that this is not the reason for the separatist movement in eastern ukraine...because the separatists are perfectly fine with neo nazis...half of the separatists -are- neo nazis...

it is time to stop pretending this separatist movement has -anything- to do with the government in kiev...it is -entirely- the work of russia and its puppets...
 
The Penal Substitution view is only 400 years old and was never taught before the 1600s. The early church did not consist of scripture denying heretics because they upheld Ransom, Christus Victor, Moral Influence and Recapitulation. Not am I a scripture denying heretic because I uphold the same.

Information Links

Christus Victor (early church)
Christus Victor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Moral Influence (early church)
Moral influence theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Moral_Influence_theory

Recapitulation (early church)
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Recapitulation theory of atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Ransom (early church)
Ransom theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Satisfaction (11th Century)
Satisfaction theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Satisfaction theory of the atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Moral Government (16th Century)
Governmental theory of atonement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Governmental theory of atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Penal Substitution (16th Century)
Penal substitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Penal substitutionary atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Atonement
Atonement - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity


I try to present substance in my posts as opposed to vacuous accusations and rhetoric.

i appeal to scripture for support for the truth of substitutionary atonement...and you appeal to wikipedia articles that don't even really support your heresy...

guess who wins?