The Sacred Letters of Timothy..OT Law or NT epistles?

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ChristInUs said:
Paul never referred to NT passages because they did not exist. He used OT passages to prove Christ.
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Sure he did...

1Co 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
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Sophia said:
What is the purpose of assuming Paul is talking about NT letters? What theological difference does it make?
It can be proven from many passages that the OT preaches Christ.
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Well it don't make a big difference but many try to use the reference Paul make to Timothy as saying that Paul was teaching timothy to keep the law. Of course its clear that Timothy was not even circumcised and could not have been under the law at any time...
 
Mitspa said:
Sure he did...

1Co 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,
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2Co 2:3 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.


2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 
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oldhermit said:

"choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward." Heb. 11:25-26
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That's the New testament...maybe you didn't see the point?
 
JesusistheChrist said:
"Shadows and types"?

Abraham ate with Jesus, friend.
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Quote it from the Old Testament....that's the point...I know now that we have the New we can see these things...but how would anyone reading the Old know the salvation that's in Christ Jesus, by faith by the evident reading of the text?

Like I said...yes shadows and types.
 
ChristInUs said:
Okay Mitspa but he was reaffirming what he had already taught from the OT. I like you man
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So...that's not the issue. the issue is was Paul speaking of his letters when he mentioned "letters" to Timothy...he did not use the term for "scriptures" but the term for letters. And he makes DIRECT reference to his doctrine in the scripture before...and refers to the letters as making one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ... the law did not teach that in a direct way, but HIS LETTERS did....

Also when Peter wrote that everyone knew Pauls epistles, that was written when it makes perfect sense that Timothy would have known his letters from his youth....also Timothy was not a practicing Jew, his mother would not have had a copy of the law, as a woman.
 
Mitspa said:
So...that's not the issue. the issue is was Paul speaking of his letters when he mentioned "letters" to Timothy...he did not use the term for "scriptures" but the term for letters. And he makes DIRECT reference to his doctrine in the scripture before...and refers to the letters as making one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ... the law did not teach that in a direct way, but HIS LETTERS did....

Also when Peter wrote that everyone knew Pauls epistles, that was written when it makes perfect sense that Timothy would have known his letters from his youth....also Timothy was not a practicing Jew, his mother would have not had a copy of the law, as a woman.
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Paul would only repeat himself and not refer to his word as scripture as we do today. What he sent to one church he sent to another always praising the cross. He would then refer to OT scripture which in turn praised the cross. For example the snake on a pole. The axe head lost in the river. And the list goes on and on. Paul preached the cross and won Pagan cities. we need the cross preached here in America and not self help and how to be good. You on board or want to point out mistakes?

Now to your post, Paul thought of Timothy as His son and was instructing Him. What did he emphasize upon?
 
ChristInUs said:
Paul would only repeat himself and not refer to his word as scripture as we do today. What he sent to one church he sent to another always praising the cross. He would then refer to OT scripture which in turn praised the cross. For example the snake on a pole. The axe head lost in the river. And the list goes on and on. Paul preached the cross and won Pagan cities. we need the cross preached here in America and not self help and how to be good. You on board or want to point out mistakes?

Now to your post, Paul thought of Timothy as His son and was instructing Him. What did he emphasize upon?
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He didn't use the term for scripture he used the term for writings or letters and Peter makes clear that his epistles was already considered "scripture". When Paul spoke of the law he never used the terms used here...and we know these shadows and types in the law represent Christ, because we have the New Testament...but the Old Testament never makes a direct statement or teaching of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Plus Timothy was not a Jew and his mother would not have had a copy of the law, but its very likely she would have access to writings as a member of the established church .. I would even say the church would have had old testament wittings they used, but I think its only reasonable to assume,they had new covenant writtings, as was the common practice to use epistles and writings from Paul and the other Apostles. Its alos very likely they had copies of Mark and Matthew...which are written as early as 30 to 40 AD
 
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Mitspa said:
Quote it from the Old Testament....that's the point...I know now that we have the New we can see these things...but how would anyone reading the Old know the salvation that's in Christ Jesus, by faith by the evident reading of the text?

Like I said...yes shadows and types.
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Have you ever heard of the Holy Ghost?
 
In answer to the question.......NT epistles are the sacred letters mentioned by Paul. Brother Timothy was a third generation Christian not a Orthodox Jew in transition to Christianity who was instructed by the writings of the Old testament law of Moses but instructed in the New testament of faith,grace,truth and love through belief in the resurrected Christ by his grandma, mother, and brother Paul as well.

2 Timothy 2:1-3
1Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. 3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:10-14
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

The sacred letters available to young brother Timothy.......
James -- A.D. 49 (written from Jerusalem)<
1 and 2 Thessalonians -- A.D. 52 (written from Corinth)<
1 Corinthians -- A.D. 55 (written from Macedonia)<
2 Corinthians -- A.D. 56 (written from Macedonia)<
Galatians -- A.D. 57 (written from Ephesus)<
Romans -- A.D. 58 (written from Corinth)<
Luke -- A.D. 59 (written from Caesarea)<
Acts -- A.D. 60 (written from Rome)<
Philippians, Colossians, Ephesians, Philemon -- A.D. 61,62 (written from Rome)
Matthew -- A.D. 63 (written from Judea)
Mark -- A.D. 63 (written from Rome)
Hebrews -- A.D. 64 (written from Jerusalem)
1 Timothy -- A.D. 65 (written from Macedonia)
1 Peter -- A.D. 65 (written from Babylon)
2 Peter -- A.D. 66 (written from unknown)
Titus -- A.D. 66 (written from Greece)
Jude -- A.D. 67 (written from unknown)
2 Timothy -- A.D. 67 (written from Rome)



>>>Old covenant= transitory and impotent<<<
>>New covenant is eternal and effectual it partakes of the power of the Holy Spirit to accomplish what it demands.<<

2 Corinthians 3:3-5 & 12-18
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
 
JesusistheChrist said:
Precisely.

Moses knew Christ, as did Abraham, David and a host of other Old Testament saints.
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Well, the text does not say that he knew Christ nor does it say that he understood at this point the Idea of a Messiah. All it says is that he considered the reproach of Christ to be greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. The reproaches of Christ refer to the sufferings. This is how the Hebrew writer uses this word in 13:13, "So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach."
 
Isaiah 56: Salvation for Foreigners


4 For thus says the LORD:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.

who would have thought ,
 
oldhermit said:
Well, the text does not say that he knew Christ nor does it say that he understood at this point the Idea of a Messiah. All it says is that he considered the reproach of Christ to be greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. The reproaches of Christ refer to the sufferings. This is how the Hebrew writer uses this word in 13:13, "So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach."
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True, but it was the reproach OF CHRIST nonetheless which he considered, so he must have known of Christ.

Anyhow, Who do you suppose that Moses and others saw here:

Exodus chapter 24

[9] Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
[10] And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
[11] And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

???
 
JesusistheChrist said:
True, but it was the reproach OF CHRIST nonetheless which he considered, so he must have known of Christ.

Anyhow, Who do you suppose that Moses and others saw here:

Exodus chapter 24

[9] Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
[10] And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
[11] And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

???
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There is no question that these represent manifestations of the second position of the triadic unity. Precisely how much Moses was allowed to understand regarding this point we are not told.
 
oldhermit said:
There is no question that these represent manifestations of the second position of the triadic unity. Precisely how much Moses was allowed to understand regarding this point we are not told.
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"The second position of the triadic unity"?

lol.

I guess that's another way to say "the second Person of the Trinity".

Anyhow, the Old Testament saints, in my estimation which is based upon many years of observation, more than likely knew and understood Christ better than most professing Christians know and understand Christ nowadays.

Again, Abraham ate with Him and believed in Him and His faith in Christ was accounted unto him for righteousness.

Enoch prophesied of Christ's second coming and his prophecy is recorded for us in the epistle of Jude.

Isaiah saw Christ on His throne.

David called Him "Lord".

The Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ IN them.

Etc., etc., etc.
 
the god of isreal was not introduced to an old covenant,(by the holy spirit) it made way, to the new covenant. when jesus introduced god to the believer by his son. (with the holy spirit.)

16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.John 3

and

"6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."John 14
 
oldhermit said:
There is no question that these represent manifestations of the second position of the triadic unity. Precisely how much Moses was allowed to understand regarding this point we are not told.
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Again, seeing how both Moses and Elijah appeared before Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration and spoke to Him of His death which He would accomplish at Jerusalem...

Luke chapter 9

[30] And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
[31] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

...I believe that the Old Testament saints knew plenty of Christ and what He would accomplish.
 
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