SAVED BY WORKS

[Jason0047]

Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Matt26:23-25

What do you think from Jesus' words?

You can't betray someone unless you were actually faithful to them at some point.

Oh, and no. God doesn't want us to be just faithful in our actions. God wants us to be faithful in our hearts and minds.

 

[gb9]

Jesus is not speaking about how He just chosen all 12 of them at that very second or moment in time. Jesus is speaking in the past tense. A lot can happen between the present and the past. Jesus is saying, I have chosen all 12 of them (Which is a past event), but one yet one is currently a devil (in this present moment in time). The passage does not say Jesus chose a devil. Big difference. Why would Jesus choose someone who is evil and place him into the highest office of the church? Yes, I know, Judas later betrayed the Lord (Which fulfilsl Scripture), but how can God being good willing choose evil to represent His good Kingdom?

have you ever tried just reading the Bible without an agenda ?? so Jesus, who regularly knew what others were thinking, was clueless about judas?? please.

 

[michael56]

You can't betray someone if you were never faithful to them to begin with.

In my view, you need to accept what the bible plainly states, and also that Christ would have known Judas was a thief, while he allowed him to remain one of the twelve.

Human rationalisation, does not bring us into line with God's plans, for His thoughts are higher than ours, and so are his ways

 

[RickyZ]

The fact that there is so much dissention kinda indicates that the Bible doesn't so plainly state. And those who think the Bible plainly states OSAS is true need to read the rest of the book and see what that plainly states.

 

[Jason0047]

have you ever tried just reading the Bible without an agenda ?? so Jesus, who regularly knew what others were thinking, was clueless about judas?? please.

In my view, you need to accept what the bible plainly states, and also that Christ would have known Judas was a thief, while he allowed him to remain one of the twelve.

Human rationalisation, does not bring us into line with God's plans, for His thoughts are higher than ours, and so are his ways

So both of you are essentially saying I should just turn off my brain and leave all logic and reason out of it? Sorry, the Lord our God is logical and orderly. He doesn't want people to be dumb or do stupid things on the basis of blindly accepting false interpretations on the Scriptures. For Jesus relates spiritual truth with real world examples. For if a person were to just blindly follow a religious man who has a false understanding on God's Word, they could be the next vicims to another case like with Jim Jones.

 

[michael56]

So you are saying I should just turn off my brain and leave all logic and reason out of it? .

It is a good Job Abraham left those things out of it when God told him to sacrifice the son through whom a nation of people would come.

 

[gb9]

So you both are saying I should just turn off my brain and leave all logic and reason out of it? Sorry, the Lord our God is logical and orderly. He doesn't want people to be dumb or do stupid things on the basis of blindly accepting false interpretations on the Scriptures. For Jesus relates spiritual truth with real world examples. For if a person were to just blindly follow a religious man who has a false understanding on God's Word, they could be the next vicims to another case like with Jim Jones.

no Jason, I say to you USE logic and reasoning. earlier, you said God would not use evil people. so how do you explain his conversation with Moses about pharaoh, who God said he raised up for a purpose??

 

[Jason0047]

And Judas repented. Is this the one case in the Bible where repentance means nothing?

In 2 Corinthians 7:10, Paul talks about how there is Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow. Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. The other kind of sorrow leads unto death. Judas was sorry. Sorry he got caught. Sorry it did not work out like he thought. But his sorrow was not Godly sorrow. One needs to repent and be broken up about their sin before God and then seek to not in doing that sin again. For sin is separation betweeen God and man. That has never changed since the Garden.

Judas was sorry for what he did but he had a worldly sorrow and not a Godly sorrow. For he committed suicide instead of repenting of his sins to the Lord.

 

[gb9]

In 2 Corinthians 7:10, Paul talks about how there is Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow. Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. The other kind of sorrow leads unto death. Judas was sorry. Sorry he got caught. Sorry it did not work out like he thought. But his sorrow was not Godly sorrow. One needs to repent and be broken up about their sin before God and then seek to not in doing that sin again. For sin is separation betweeen God and man. That has never changed since the Garden.

Judas was sorry for what he did but he had a worldly sorrow and not a Godly sorrow. For he committed suicide instead of repenting of his sins to the Lord.

very good. spot on. man, wished you talked like this all the time.

 

[Jason0047]

It is a good Job Abraham left those things out of it when God told him to sacrifice the son through whom a nation of people would come.

In Hebrews 11, we learn that Abraham had an assurance that his son was going to be resurrected or brought back to life. So no, God was not asking Abraham to permanently take the life of his son. In fact, Abraham was so confident of this fact, we learn in Genesis 22:5 that he told his young servant men that both he and Isaac would return to them.

Besides, Jim Jones was breaking dozens of Scripture verses by getting his congregation to commit suicide. So there is a big difference between the two events; And Mr Jones was asking them to take their own lives, too.

 

[RickyZ]

In 2 Corinthians 7:10, Paul talks about how there is Godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow. Godly sorrow leads to repentance unto salvation. The other kind of sorrow leads unto death. Judas was sorry. Sorry he got caught. Sorry it did not work out like he thought. But his sorrow was not Godly sorrow. One needs to repent and be broken up about their sin before God and then seek to not in doing that sin again. For sin is separation betweeen God and man. That has never changed since the Garden.

Judas was sorry for what he did but he had a worldly sorrow and not a Godly sorrow. For he committed suicide instead of repenting of his sins to the Lord.

Matthew 27: [SUP]3 [/SUP]When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. [SUP]4 [/SUP]“I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”


"I have sinned and betrayed innocent blood". Sounds more Godly than "dang I got caught".

 

[Jason0047]

no Jason, I say to you USE logic and reasoning. earlier, you said God would not use evil people. so how do you explain his conversation with Moses about pharaoh, who God said he raised up for a purpose??

Sorry, I didn't catch what you said earlier, I was going off what you said in your post. I took your use of the word "agenda" to mean that I shouldn't think when reading the Scriptures.

As for the Pharoah: Well, God uses all things in this universe for His glory. God can use the devil and evil people for his good purposes without their knowledge. But yet God does not condone the evil that they do nor does God choose evil beings to be a part of His good Kingdom or to represent His good people. Pharoah was not one of God's good people, nor did he choose Pharoah to represent His good Kingdom. Yes, God still used Pharoah for his good purposes but that is a far cry from making Him one of His exclusive servants that are a part of His good Kingdom. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Jason0047]

Matthew 27: [SUP]3 [/SUP]When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. [SUP]4 [/SUP]“I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”


"I have sinned and betrayed innocent blood". Sounds more Godly than "dang I got caught".

Doesn't matter. His actions in hanging himself prove that it was not a true Godly sorrow but a worldly sorrow. In other words, a husband can say to his wife that he is sorry he cheated on her, but if he immediately walks out of the room to pick up the phone to call the other woman to be with her, he is not really sorry. Do you see what I mean?

It doesn't really matter if the husband cried and broke in tears or not before his wife. His following actions would show he was not really sorry.

 

[RickyZ]

Doesn't matter. His actions in hanging himself prove that it was not a true Godly sorrow but a worldly sorrow. In other words, a husband can say to his wife that he is sorry he cheated on her, but if he immediately walks out of the room to pick up the phone to call the other woman to be with her, he is not really sorry. Do you see what I mean?

It doesn't really matter if the husband cried and broke in tears or not before his wife. His following actions would show he was not really sorry.

Well, we had a nice little run of mutual agreement. But I think you're going off on what one poster called agenda based interpretation. You want to think that Judas regretted getting caught, but what was there to catch? He did what he did out in the open for all to see. There was no 'getting caught'. The Bible clearly says he was filled with remorse over having set an innocent man up to die. That was the force driving his suicide. Now, whether someone who commits suicide is allowed into heaven is another question. But the suicide itself was driven by remorse. Which is a very close cousin to repentance.

 

[simplytruth]

Will anyone on these boards that believes they are saved by their works, that is, by obeying God please say so and explain this process? I am not addressing those who think they should obey because they are saved, not in order to be saved. It seems many on these boards must believe such, since the topic is brought up so often. I await you testimony.

Do you have the Holy Spirit,if so how did you get it without obeying?
Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
is Jesus Christ the author of your eternal salvation? if so how would you receive it without obeying.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[mailmandan]

That doesn't make any sense. You cannot lose something unless you once had it. In order to lose something you have to possesss it.

It doesn't make any sense for Jesus to say "Those whom You gave Me I have KEPT", If Judas was given to Jesus by the Father but was not kept. It also does not make sense for Jesus to say, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost NONE" (John 18:9) if Jesus actually lost one. Elsewhere, Jesus said - John 6:39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." This was not the case for Judas.

John 17 talks about losing the son of perdition. John 17:12 actually uses the word "lost."

How could Jesus have lost Judas if all those who were given to Jesus by the Father were kept? Jesus said He lost NONE. John 17 talks about the son of perdition is lost, but Jesus did not lose him because of all that was given to Jesus by the Father He has lost NONE, not one. How could Jesus lose an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him? (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Psalm 41:9 is Messianic and speaks about Judas betraying Jesus. It says, "Yea, mine own familar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

In Psalm 41:9, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, a reference to Ahithophel, one of David's official counselors (2 Samuel 15:12) who defected from the king and joined in Absalom's conspiracy. David's betrayal by a false friend pictures Judas's betrayal of Christ (John 13:18), where this verse is quoted, omitting the phrase, "mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted." Do you really believe that Jesus trusted an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him? As Ahithophel had eaten bread with David, so too Judas dipped in the same dish with the Lord. So was Judas a true friend of Jesus? In Matthew 26:50, Jesus said to Judas, "Friend, why have you come?" Are we to believe that Judas was His true friend? We should not be surprised that Jesus does not use the word "philos" (Strong's #5384 - dear, friend, friendly) in Matthew 26:50. That is the word He used for His true friends (John 11:11; 15:14,15). But here He says, "hetairos" Strong's #2083 - companion, comrade). Judas was someone who associates himself with Jesus for the purpose of gaining advantage for himself. Someone who acts as a friend but really has a personal agenda, as we saw in John 12:6, where Judas is described as a thief in which he took for himself what was in the money bag, yet he himself not caring for the poor and also his eventual betrayal of Jesus for thirty pieces of silver.

Besides, if Judas was not saved (When Jesus chose Him), then you have a huge moral issue to resolve. How can the Lord (Being good) choose someone who is a devil or evil to be placed into one of the highest offices in the church to represent His good Kingdom and or to do good things for Him?

You are basing your arguments on your own human reasoning and not on scripture. In John 6:70, Jesus clearly said - "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" (not later became a devil). In John 13:18, Jesus clearly said - I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me. Judas was temporarily one of the 12 disciples (even though he was not TRULY His disciple, demonstrated by the fact that he did not continue - John 8:31). Judas did not stick around to be a leader of the church after Pentecost.

For what fellowship does light have with darkness? Would that not be deceptive on God's part to have Judas (being evil) going to people's houses and doing good things for them as a representaive of God's good Kingdom?

Again, Jesus chose Judas and clearly said he is a devil. Judas may have looked like the real deal to others, yet Jesus knew his heart. You need to ask the question: Why would Jesus choose Judas if He knew that Judas was going to betray Him? Does that sound like a good representative of God's kingdom? There was a reason. Again, in John 13:18, Jesus clearly said - I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.

In fact, if Jesus were to have chosen a devil of a man to lead or represent his kingdom, he would have actually broken Scripture by doing so.

Jesus clearly said he chose him and he is a devil (John 6:70). Judas short lived mission was only temporary. He did not go on to lead or represent Christ's kingdom in the church with the remaining 11 disciples.

For 1 Timothy 3:1, 3, 8 essentially says that a bishop (or leader in the church) is not to be given to filthy lucre. This spiritual leader not given to filth lucre (money) is mentioned twice in 1 Timothy 3 in both verses 3 and 8.

In the first place, was the church already established prior to Pentecost with bishop's already in place? In the second place, Judas would have been disqualified to become a bishop with those qualifications listed in 1 Timothy 3:1 ,3, 8. Judas was a thief who stole money from the money box (John 12:6) and he betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver (Matthew 27:3).

In John 6:70 Jesus is said that he has chosen the 12. This would imply that Jesus willingly chose someone who was evil (If you believe Judas was unsaved).

Jesus chose Judas for a reason (John 13:18). Judas did not fool Jesus. I have no reason to believe that Judas was saved. Unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) = NOT saved. You continue to base your arguments on your own human reasoning, but you have not shown me from the scriptures where it clearly states that Judas was saved.

 

[1joseph]

Do you have the Holy Spirit, if so how did you get it without obeying?

For me, the way I obeyed was when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins many years ago; I repented of them; told the Holy Spirit I believed Jesus was my savior, and asked Him to come into my heart. And He did! From then on I desired to obey Him and follow His Word. When I sinned I felt bad (dirty) and would ask His forgiveness (sincerely) every time and would feel good (clean) again. This went on for a time (years) until one day I realized I wanted Him to not only be my Savior but to also to be the Lord of my life. By that I mean I wanted to stop serving myself (lusting after fleshly things) and start serving Him (whatever His desire for me was.) I spoke to Him every day, mostly in my mind but sometimes aloud. At first I just made statements--giving myself over to Him, thanking Him and asking Him for things--but one day I asked a question... and He answered it! My relationship with The Creator went to a different level. The salvation I originally received was instant, but this new walk with Him, I would find out over time, was a gradual learning of Him and His Ways.

Now, looking back, I see how much He has taught me. He has always been patient with me, steering me in His Ways through events and conversation. Now, I know his Voice and Handiwork. When I reflect on some of the things He has orchestrated for my good it astounds me in its scope and perfection. Other's cannot see these things, except for some that were shared by my wife and children. (In my life, I have shared a few instances with others but the weight of what God did for me was lost on them, and rightly so.) Some of the merciful things He has done for me are only known between the two of us, and will remain so, for He has cast them away forever, of which I am thankful forevermore.

This casting away of my sins and His Love entering in, and being with me each day, gives me a peace that I never had before I invited Him onto my life. God stands at the door and knocks. If any person opens the door He will enter in. It is up to you whether you will open this door or leave it barred forever. If you haven't already done so, I encourage you to open it and receive God's Love that He has for you.

 

[Jeff_56]

i don't have time right now to edit the portions below in the quotes, so try to follow if you can...

JESUS CHOSE MANY who were not (something) but were HIS DISCIPLES for some time.
and
MOST OF HIS DISCIPLES (apparently) left HIM (before He asked simon barjonah if He also was going to leave Him)
when HIS WORD got too difficult, too hard, too 'pricey' for them to bear....

also, today, in most churches, are a LOT OF DISCIPLES who do not live HIS WAY and who will not get past the FINAL JUDGMENT
when HE TELLS THEM "be gone from ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU"......

and (a little bit tangent?) JESUS TREATED judas the betrayer just like HE TREATED the other disciples so
none of them knew who the betrayer was NOR EVEN THAT JUDAS WAS A THIEF until LATER ----
but JESUS KNEW judas was a demon and a thief all along....

perhaps the only way to think of this right now is

let the tares (the fakes) alone, don't treat them any different than the wheat --
let the tares grow right along with the wheat and don't show any difference in the way we treat them (as if we could even know for sure tares from wheat, which is entirely beyond internet sharing and this site)..

some of the tares might be granted MERCY BY ABBA,
some of the tares might not be tares,
some of the wheat might not be wheat (we humans are so ..... prone to error dontcha know! ) ...

at any point as it is written in GOD'S WORD - GOD MAY SHOW MERCY on one who IS FALLEN AWAY(NOT HIS EVER OR YET) and graft them in to HIS PEOPLE....

and we/someone/anyone who has been grafted in (GeNtiLeS!!) might be cut out !!!! so walk fearfully lest that occur, we/ us/ everyone !!! just because because because because because IT IS WRITTEN THAT IT COULD?MIGHT HAPPEN !!!!!!!

the short story: many who are working in any church or part of God's Kingdom right now,
may not yet even be grafted in, may not yet be saved, but may soon by GOD'S PLAN be saved before they die.....
and of course a lot of other things that look like they are sure may change...... Yahweh knows.

Exactly. In the instance of Jesus calling Peter as Satan and for him to get behind him: This was an example of Peter being temporarily influenced into a wrong way of thinking by the devil. Peter was not actually Satan or a devil. Jesus had also praised Peter in a different time, too. I believe when Judas was placed at some point in charge of the money, he gave into his own temptations for filthy lucre and became a devil.

I just can't see our Lord willingly choosing someone who is evil to represent His Holy and good Kingdom. Now, if someone later becomes evil, then that is on them and not God.

That doesn't make any sense. You cannot lose something unless you once had it. In order to lose something you have to possesss it. John 17 talks about losing the son of perdition. John 17:12 actually uses the word "lost." Psalm 41:9 is Messianic and speaks about Judas betraying Jesus. It says, "Yea, mine own familar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

Besides, if Judas was not saved (When Jesus chose Him), then you have a huge moral issue to resolve. How can the Lord (Being good) choose someone who is a devil or evil to be placed into one of the highest offices in the church to represent His good Kingdom and or to do good things for Him? For what fellowship does light have with darkness? Would that not be deceptive on God's part to have Judas (being evil) going to people's houses and doing good things for them as a representaive of God's good Kingdom? In fact, if Jesus were to have chosen a devil of a man to lead or represent his kingdom, he would have actually broken Scripture by doing so. For 1 Timothy 3:1, 3, 8 essentially says that a bishop (or leader in the church) is not to be given to filthy lucre. This spiritual leader not given to filth lucre (money) is mentioned twice in 1 Timothy 3 in both verses 3 and 8.

In John 6:70 Jesus is said that he has chosen the 12. This would imply that Jesus willingly chose someone who was evil (If you believe Judas was unsaved).

Sorry, I didn't catch what you said earlier, I was going off what you said in your post. I took your use of the word "agenda" to mean that I shouldn't think when reading the Scriptures.

As for the Pharoah: Well, God uses all things in this universe for His glory. God can use the devil and evil people for his good purposes without their knowledge. But yet God does not condone the evil that they do nor does God choose evil beings to be a part of His good Kingdom or to represent His good people. Pharoah was not one of God's good people, nor did he choose Pharoah to represent His good Kingdom. Yes, God still used Pharoah for his good purposes but that is a far cry from making Him one of His exclusive servants that are a part of His good Kingdom. Therein lies the difference.

 

[simplytruth]

For me, the way I obeyed was when the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins many years ago; I repented of them; told the Holy Spirit I believed Jesus was my savior, and asked Him to come into my heart. And He did! From then on I desired to obey Him and follow His Word. When I sinned I felt bad (dirty) and would ask His forgiveness (sincerely) every time and would feel good (clean) again. This went on for a time (years) until one day I realized I wanted Him to not only be my Savior but to also to be the Lord of my life. By that I mean I wanted to stop serving myself (lusting after fleshly things) and start serving Him (whatever His desire for me was.) I spoke to Him every day, mostly in my mind but sometimes aloud. At first I just made statements--giving myself over to Him, thanking Him and asking Him for things--but one day I asked a question... and He answered it! My relationship with The Creator went to a different level. The salvation I originally received was instant, but this new walk with Him, I would find out over time, was a gradual learning of Him and His Ways.

Now, looking back, I see how much He has taught me. He has always been patient with me, steering me in His Ways through events and conversation. Now, I know his Voice and Handiwork. When I reflect on some of the things He has orchestrated for my good it astounds me in its scope and perfection. Other's cannot see these things, except for some that were shared by my wife and children. (In my life, I have shared a few instances with others but the weight of what God did for me was lost on them, and rightly so.) Some of the merciful things He has done for me are only known between the two of us, and will remain so, for He has cast them away forever, of which I am thankful forevermore.

This casting away of my sins and His Love entering in, and being with me each day, gives me a peace that I never had before I invited Him onto my life. God stands at the door and knocks. If any person opens the door He will enter in. It is up to you whether you will open this door or leave it barred forever. If you haven't already done so, I encourage you to open it and receive God's Love that He has for you.

so now you ask the HS to come into your heart...where is that found in scripture????? that is doctrine of man...scripture teaches ...repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS.....it does not teach ...ask the HS to come into our heart....How were your sins remitted if you did not do it as shown in scripture???

 

[Jason0047]

As for folks falsely thinking Jesus chose Judas (With him being evil already): Again, this is just silly. No. God does not choose evil people to represent His holy kingdom. It's not possible because it would be deceptive on the part of God to do so. Also, Jesus established the New Covenant and taught New Covenant. His apostles also taught New Covenant. The Spirit would not have inspired them to write about a law about the qualifications for a church leader to not be given to filthly lucrre if God (Christ) did not follow that same standard. Not only would it be unethical, but it would be inconsistent on the part of God to do so. Think about it (Not just with your heads, but with your hearts, too).