Catholic Heresy (for the record)

fordman · Mar 12, 2015

Thinks so ? Lets take a good long look at it. First, the need to address your souce first.

As far as I'm concerned the book "Upon This Slippery Rock" is a fine performance of theological inaccuracy turned in by Dr. Eric Svendsen. If theology was medicine this would be a case of serious "spiritual malpractice". For those of you who want to buy his books, this is the sort of twisted rationale and degree of accuracy you can expect.

Well jimbo, lets take a look at it this way, so to make it very easy way for you to figure out.

In my home town here on the west coast of the United States, (Oregon) it has a population of roughly 180,000. Now in my city alone, there are 118 differnt Protestant, non-denominational and "Spirit Filled" churches, (feel good churches) and four Catholic Churches listed on "Church Finder.com" with names like "Calvary Chapel Christian, "Christian World Fellowship", Sonrise Christian, ect... ect. And this doesn't even account for the churches started by every Dick and Jane that got their Pastor's certificate online and hold services in rented school gymnasiums, halls, garages, private homes, ect.. All preaching their own (most likely differnt from each others) version of Gods word, supposedly under the insperation of the Holy Spirit. Oh yes, and we must not forget all the Differnt preachers that are on t.v. like Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, ect...ect. How many of them do ya think are on the air waves?

Now if you were to multiply these various churches with every city..... lets say in North America alone, what kind of number do you think you'd come up with? Now if we were to include the entire world, I think that 30,000 would be a very reasonable figure, probably even a bit conservative. I don't Know what city or town you live in, but if you were to google ChurchFinder.com, and enter your city, you might be quite surprised just how many differnt churches are going to pop up!

Pax Christi

"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed. ---Luke 1:48.

fordman · Mar 12, 2015

Jackson123 said:

Really???? Shows how little you really know. For the last sentence of the prayer we ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to "pray for us sinners, now at at the hour of our death."

Pax Christi

"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ----Luke 1:48.

Jimbone · Mar 12, 2015

fordman said:

Ok I did what you said and in my area there are 9 to 11 different "denominations” all together, this includes Catholic, Lutheran, the JW's, mormons and all that together and really only 5 “protestant” denominations. Now if there name alone counts as "different denominations", then there are 55 total in my area of Fort Walton Beach, FL, still a far cry from 30,000. Now I’m sure if I multiplied it by how many cities there are in the US then we may get to or beyond the 30,000 number, but that’s logically ridiculous because that’s assuming each church is a different denomination by the churches name alone. Your argument is that each person that holds a bible study in their home is a different denomination, that is just ridiculous. If that’s how you defend the 30 thousand number then your argument is bankrupt. It’s completely illogical, while even though you may not like my source it hold much more merit then your “ChurchFinder.com + assumed math” argument that I actually looked into. If that’s your source this debate is over. Unless you can provide a valid and verifiable source for the 30,000 number, as I showed where these numbers originally came from and why they were flawed being used the way they are by Catholics. If this number didn’t come from “David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982)”, then please list your source for the information.

mikeuk · Mar 12, 2015

Jimbone said:

Just on my way out.
Gentleman. The number is less important than the principle of many many fractures..
Two things are also important.

First - that there is a lot of latitude in some of these denominations. In many the pastor himself becomes the arbiter of doctrine, and two of the same denomination can have opposite doctrine on many issues. One such pair a mile apart fractured because one believed the child that "did not get to choose baptism before dying" was saved , the other did not.
So there are many more doctrinal beliefs than denominations. Or the churches where their "creed" is only five lines long, and the congregation can choose what they believe beyond the five principles and so on.

Second - the non denominationals swell that number enormously, Where they take their core creeds from one place, then tweak some pieces they do not like!

So there are a great many, all born of fractures, and Luther himself despaired of the monster he created, when abandoning the magisterium of RCC, seemingly all then felt empowered to have there own view.

You can argue how many there are. Does it matter if there are 10000 or 30000 or 50000?
What you cannot argue is all this division is bad.
Also that "discerning the spirit" has not been sufficient to resolve the problems because all claim they have done so, and Luther is scathing of that!

The divisions are not trivial. On real presence there are at least 4 camps amongst protestants.
1/ Real presence - The bread becomes the body of Christ
2/ Real presence - The bread is joined with the body of Christ
3/ The holy spirit is imparted with the eucharist, so still a sacrament but not Christ.
4/ An ordinance. We celebrate it because we are ordered, but neither Christ nor the spirit are there.
Then endless variants on those! Such as the Eastern Rite who are either 1/ or 2/ but consider it a mystery which!
Actually even "real presence" is a deliberately woooly form of words - invented I think by Cranmer, trying to fudge the differences between belief sets between trans and con substantiation!

And so on.

Yet if you go back to the earliest fathers, the didache, and so on, and all the church fathers to reformation -they never dispute the real presence! It is only the reformationists, chopping away history and tradition, to leave unsupportable sola scriptura that even left the possibly of saying Christ was not there! 3/ 4/ and other variants (there are many!)
So the loss of authority and tradition at the reformation, opened the doors to a mass of arguments by losing the compass, they drift apart. Sometimes jump. Sometimes drift.
All the moral relativism! Bowing of pressure to popular demand. Abortion. Homosexuality and so on. This is creating doctrines in the image of the congregation! not in the image of God!

RCC has stood alone in keeping the beliefs that others ditched due to popular pressure on conraception, abortion, homosexuality and so on. Its course has been steady as others drift away.

Jackson123 · Mar 12, 2015

fordman said:

Say we have conversation:

Jackson said:

Hi Fordman. I will ask you 2 question. 1.Can you loan me $ 50.00 and 2. Can you ask to your son to loan me $.25

Amen.

The first request/ pray is directed to you not to your son.

The second request is ask you to request/pray to your son.

This prayer is part to Mary, and part ask Mary to pray.

This prayer bellow is the example.

Doa-Doa Kepada Bunda Maria - Ekaristi Dot Org

www.ekaristi.org/doa/dokumen.php?...

Translate this page

Delivery Prayer To Mary Hymns Bakti, 1991, No. 52Holy Mary, Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, thou art Queen's noblest. so good you became queen us all. Tunjukanlah to us the path to holiness and guide us so as not to get lost.
Take charge of our mind, so we're just looking for the right.
We will be over, so we just want good.
Take charge of our hearts, that we love one another as a brother.
Overcome ourselves each and all family members.
Overcome all members of society, every nation and world dignitaries.
May the strap you into them all in a firm unity.
Overcome all mankind.
Open to the path of faith for those who are not familiar with your Son, Jesus.
Help her to all nations united, harmonious and peaceful life.
Naungilah all mankind, especially the persecuted and hounded.
They bear it in oppression and enlighten those in darkness, in order to remain faithful to Jesus, your son.
Hantarlah all our petition to thy Son, the Maharaja kingdom of peace, where every prayer of the petition is granted, every load lightened hearts and infirmities healed.
I hope people who know His power and put hope in Him. occasionally see the royal splendor of thy Son, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and power, now and all time. Amen

read this prayer. Up to line 15, it is pray to Mary. Asking Mary to take charge the prayers mind, etc.

the different between asking Mary to pray and pray to Mary is how it start.

notuptome · Mar 12, 2015

mikeuk said:

The RCC has always adapted itself to the religions of the region in which they are located. The RCC adopted the pantheon of Rome into the Vatican.

The RCC may claim to stand on contraception, abortion and sodomy but the laity is divided and few if any pay any mind to the RCC's positions. They do not vote in alignment with the RCC doctrinal positions.

All hat and no cattle.

For the cause of Christ.
Roger

Jimbone · Mar 12, 2015

mikeuk said:

Just on my way out.
Gentleman. The number is less important than the principle of many many fractures..
Two things are also important.

First - that there is a lot of latitude in some of these denominations. In many the pastor himself becomes the arbiter of doctrine, and two of the same denomination can have opposite doctrine on many issues. One such pair a mile apart fractured because one believed the child that "did not get to choose baptism before dying" was saved , the other did not.
So there are many more doctrinal beliefs than denominations. Or the churches where their "creed" is only five lines long, and the congregation can choose what they believe beyond the five principles and so on.

Second - the non denominationals swell that number enormously, Where they take their core creeds from one place, then tweak some pieces they do not like!

So there are a great many, all born of fractures, and Luther himself despaired of the monster he created, when abandoning the magisterium of RCC, seemingly all then felt empowered to have there own view.

You can argue how many there are. Does it matter if there are 10000 or 30000 or 50000?
What you cannot argue is all this division is bad.
Also that "discerning the spirit" has not been sufficient to resolve the problems because all claim they have done so, and Luther is scathing of that!

The divisions are not trivial. On real presence there are at least 4 camps amongst protestants.
1/ Real presence - The bread becomes the body of Christ
2/ Real presence - The bread is joined with the body of Christ
3/ The holy spirit is imparted with the eucharist, so still a sacrament but not Christ.
4/ An ordinance. We celebrate it because we are ordered, but neither Christ nor the spirit are there.
Then endless variants on those! Such as the Eastern Rite who are either 1/ or 2/ but consider it a mystery which!
Actually even "real presence" is a deliberately woooly form of words - invented I think by Cranmer, trying to fudge the differences between belief sets between trans and con substantiation!

And so on.

Yet if you go back to the earliest fathers, the didache, and so on, and all the church fathers to reformation -they never dispute the real presence! It is only the reformationists, chopping away history and tradition, to leave unsupportable sola scriptura that even left the possibly of saying Christ was not there! 3/ 4/ and other variants (there are many!)
So the loss of authority and tradition at the reformation, opened the doors to a mass of arguments by losing the compass, they drift apart. Sometimes jump. Sometimes drift.
All the moral relativism! Bowing of pressure to popular demand. Abortion. Homosexuality and so on. This is creating doctrines in the image of the congregation! not in the image of God!

RCC has stood alone in keeping the beliefs that others ditched due to popular pressure on conraception, abortion, homosexuality and so on. Its course has been steady as others drift away.

To be honest I agree with what you're saying about the divisions, that is more important than the number, but using a false number to prop up your view over and over (not just him but I can't count how many times I've seen the 30K number thrown out there, as many as you've heard "the pope is anti-Christ I'm sure) then it's a problem. I see no difference when someone says "All Catholics worship Mary", and are answered with"that's not what we believe". Do you like it when a falsehood is used as ammo against your stand? What's the difference between that and saying"oh there's 30K protestant denominations", as ammo against our beliefs? If either side can use whatever they want then how could any conversation ever reach truth? The 30K number is NOT true and I don't think anyone should use a falsehood to make a case, and that goes for everyone no matter what side of the fence you fall on.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 12, 2015

What are you talking about here? The Catholic Church never syncreted the Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses. Roman Catholics did not and do not worship the pagan gods and goddesses associated with the ancient Roman pantheon.

If you're talking about the conversion of pagan worship locations into Christian assemblies, many of them had fallen into disuse well before the rise of Christianity and due to a material defunding after Constantine; many more did later. Obsolete temples were sometimes converted to Christian assemblies and sometimes simply gutted of stone for use in other buildings.

But if you're asserting that the Roman Catholic church syncreted the Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses and Roman Catholics today worship and venerate them then I want to see your evidence.

Please present it for our review.

notuptome said:

Jeff_56 · Mar 12, 2015

Yahweh's evidence is the deciding evidence. He has given you all all the evidence and all the opportunity time and time again to see

the satanic nature of the rcc -- the rcc is entirely anti-christ and HERESY --- get it yet??? (no, obviously, and you won't
since those caught in HERESY by nature are unable to recognize it

and as long as you in the HERESY trust demons or man, you will serve them instead of the One True God and

you will think you are doing GOD a FAVOR when you speak against and trample the truth and eventually even
when you put to death Yahshua's disciples as do your father's and their father's before them.

you want more simple, obvious, true evidence?

re-read this thread ---- it's all there, more than enough to convict anyone who trusts any part of the rcc.

so far, the rcc adherents have not received mercy from God in Heaven to believe the truth, so they reject

all Scripture and all evidence from God which all and always proves them deceived in heresy.

Jackson123 · Mar 12, 2015

[video]https://youtu.be/E9EIJ_1p9Ms[/video][video]https://youtu.be/E9EIJ_1p9Ms[/video]

AgeofKnowledge said:

What are you talking about here? The Catholic Church never syncreted the Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses. Roman Catholics did not and do not worship the pagan gods and goddesses associated with the ancient Roman pantheon.

If you're talking about the conversion of pagan worship locations into Christian assemblies, many of them had fallen into disuse well before the rise of Christianity and due to a material defunding after Constantine; many more did later. Obsolete temples were sometimes converted to Christian assemblies and sometimes simply gutted of stone for use in other buildings.

But if you're asserting that the Roman Catholic church syncreted the Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses and Roman Catholics today worship and venerate them then I want to see your evidence.

Please present it for our review.

Jackson123 · Mar 12, 2015

[video]https://youtu.be/E9EIJ_1p9Ms[/video]

AgeofKnowledge said:

What are you talking about here? The Catholic Church never syncreted the Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses. Roman Catholics did not and do not worship the pagan gods and goddesses associated with the ancient Roman pantheon.

If you're talking about the conversion of pagan worship locations into Christian assemblies, many of them had fallen into disuse well before the rise of Christianity and due to a material defunding after Constantine; many more did later. Obsolete temples were sometimes converted to Christian assemblies and sometimes simply gutted of stone for use in other buildings.

But if you're asserting that the Roman Catholic church syncreted the Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses and Roman Catholics today worship and venerate them then I want to see your evidence.

Please present it for our review.

[video]https://youtu.be/E9EIJ_1p9Ms[/video]

KenAllan · Mar 12, 2015

What is interesting is the Scriptures does say the Church is the Pillar of the Truth. What it does not say is its the Catholic Church that is the Pillar of the Truth. The Church that was around when the N.T. books were written by the Holy Spirit was the Church founded by the Disciples. The Catholic Church did not appear on the scene until 400 years later.

Therefore its the Church founded by Paul and the Disciples that is the Pillar of Truth not the Catholic Church which was not in existence yet.

Acts 2:43-47
[SUP]43 [/SUP] And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common;
[SUP]45 [/SUP] and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

This is the True Church that IS the Pillar of Truth, not the Catholic Church. Read the History books and see that the Catholic Church was formed by the Romans 400 years later. The Catholic Church is not the Pillar of Truth.

MikeHenderson · Mar 12, 2015

I have listened to both sides here talking about Protestants and Catholics. What i find appalling is how quickly the Catholics are to reject what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures to accept what the World says. If there is truth outside of God then does this mean that God is not all-knowing? If God is not all-knowing then God is not God!

How can there be Truths in a World corrupted by sin?

So i have come to the conclusion that the Catholics must believe that God is powerless and this is why they need Mary.

Jeff_56 · Mar 12, 2015

MikeHenderson said:

they don't need nor benefit from mary - she will send them to hell just as fast as yahweh and yahshua and all the apostles and all the ekklesia will send them to hell, if they don't repent. (we will judge them, and as yahweh orchestrates and administers his people, we judge them now as not His people).....

they are lost, they are in HERESY, they are anti-truth, opposed to God and opposed to Jesus Christ and
opposed to all the ekklesia in Jesus Christ, EXACTLY as Jesus told His disciples and tells us today.

as for how much paganism is fully inside the rcc --- it's not for discussion - there's no discussing heresy and the anti-christ nature of rcc with rcc ---- >> here 's a little easily found searching for TRUTH in JESUS.>>>>

evidence from and by the rcc itself of how much the serpent took over the start and middle and continuing rcc pracitices without resistance from the rcc demonically controlled pope and jesuits and priests...>>
LINK TO EXPOSING HASATAN IN THE RCC>>>>
Images of the Roman Catholic Church

"Note: During the rise of the Protestant Reformation, the Roman Church had few scholars to match the Biblical scholarship of her enemies. One of the first responsibilities of the Jesuits was to fill this need as pontifical theologians. A major thrust of the new order was to regain Roman Catholic supremacy in Europe by taking over the schools, colleges and universities. Benjamin G. Wilkinson, Truth Triumphant, Leave of Autumn Publications.
---------------------------------
"Although the Roman Catholic Church claims that the crosier represents the shepherd's crook, it actually can be traced to the divining staff or the augur of pontifex maximus of ancient Rome, who inherited it from the priests of Babylon.

------------------------
"Following the conquest of Mesopotamia by the Persians, the Babylonian priesthood fled to Pergamum in Asia Minor. Here they erected the Acropolis temples of Pergamum in honor of the Greek Pantheon, but continued to worship the Babylonian myster god under the name Saturnus.

"The Babylonian mysteries were preserved in the temple of Zeus at Pergamum and transferred to Rome in 133 B.C. The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general that Rome was called "The New Babylon."

"In 133 B.C. the Babylonian solar cult was bequeathed to Rome by Attalus III. There its symbols and forms were incorporated into the cult of Caesar and later into Roman Catholicism.

------------------------------
"Jupiter or Peter?

"Note: The statues of the 'gods' from the Pantheon are now found in the Vatican Museum with the exception of the great statue of Jupiter, which has been modified, retitled, and seated on a throne in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome as St. Peter. Thousands of pilgrims kiss the foot of Jupiter while thinking it is the statue of Peter. "

blue_ladybug · Mar 12, 2015

It is utterly futile to pray to Mary. She does not answer prayers, nor does she intercede to Jesus on your behalves. Jesus alone is the intercessor. HE is who you should be praying to, NOT Mary. Anyone who prays to Mary will not end up in heaven..

mikeuk · Mar 12, 2015

Jimbone said:

I agree with integrity of numbers which should not be hyped, and perhaps it is high.

But in this case I am not sure there is a right answer. On closer inspection The Christian encyclopedia numbers have overlap in different countries, so are high, if not very high, Other figures I see are 2000-3000 US alone, but if counting doctrinal differences, that ignores both variation within a denomination ( and some allow pastors to decide detail of doctrine) also many so called non denominational churches which allow many/ any belief sets, also many non denominational individuals who decide their own doctrine. Lither said " as many doctrines as there are heads". There are certainly many thousands. Something in the UK I saw in the UK stats was even more worrying - a 30% increase in number in just 5 years to 2010.

It does not alter the fact there are too many.

Or that it is only the freedom offered by reformation sola scriptura, that allowed many variants of doctrine to proliferate, including for example , the several flavours of doctrine to that deny real presence in the Eucharist,
because prior to that it is clear in tradition, that is the earliest fathers writings didache and so on, and all the fathers since, that the real presence was the doctrine handed down from the earliest Christians only a generation on from the apostles. And it is clearly consistent with Paul's warnings about eating judgement unto yourselves etc.

The compass was lost at the reformation, now all the ships are drifting apart. Sola scriptura is the problem without reference to history or tradition.

God bless all.

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 12, 2015

Posting a non-scholarly YouTube video of some guy making assertions about the veneration of Mary does not prove the Catholic Church syncreted the ancient Roman pantheon of pagan gods into Roman Catholicism.

All you've done is demonstrate that you can't prove the assertion you made.

Jackson123 said:

Jackson123 · Mar 12, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

Where the term Queen of heaven come from.

Why Pope bow in front of Mary Statue tradition from. I never read this tradition from the apostle. It is from Rome religion.

how about transubstantiation

[h=3]The Pagan Roots of Transubstantiation - Lazyboy's Rest Stop[/h]www.lazyboysreststop.org/apol8.htm

AgeofKnowledge · Mar 13, 2015

The Roman Catholic veneration (not her worship which the RCC officially condemns) of Mary does not prove that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) syncretized the ancient Roman pantheon of pagan gods and goddesses for worship and/or veneration.

In fact, the veneration of Mary goes back to the 2nd century in the early church amongst some Christians and has zero to do with Roman gods and goddesses being superimposed upon the person of Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ.

Do I support it? No, of course not. I'm an evangelical Christian. I would assert that the RCC has defined idolatry far too narrowly in its favor.

Jesus Christ and the apostles never taught the veneration of Mary as practiced in the RCC. I would say that the Catholic tradition that isolates Mary as a unique person elevated far beyond ordinary humanity, and even humanity itself, misses the point. That according to the NT accounts, Mary is not removed from ordinary women. She is not the Queen of Heaven or the token female in the Trinity or a goddess. She is neither a matriarchal nor a fertility symbol. She has no titles or special sway in heaven.

She is an ordinary woman who responded in faith to a unique calling. In fact, it is her ordinariness that makes her so extraordinary. We are to remember her as “blessed among women,” representing qualities that, except for her bearing the Savior of the world, are open to any person.

But I don't extrapolate that to a false assertion like you're doing either. The ancient Canaanite pagan sky goddesses and Greco-Roman pantheons have nothing to do with Mary the mother of Jesus Christ who is called the "Queen of Heaven" because some early Christians believed that when she died she spiritually assumed the role of queen in heaven and it became popularized in the Catholic Church. This is one issue where correlation does not equal causation.

And, you want to know the history of transubstantiation? Paschasius Radbertus (785 AD-865 AD) is regarded as the first propounder of transubstantiation, or the change of the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ’s body and blood. This was defined as a dogma of the (Western) church by the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), and was given a subtle philosophical explanation by Thomas Aquinas.

In fact, the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 helped to establish various theological perversions like purgatory, penance, infused grace, implicit faith, transubstantiation, and the eucbaristic sacrifice.

But how does that translate to the doctrine of transubstantiation being a Roman Pantheon carry over? It doesn't, because it is not.

Listen friend, you need to learn Catholic history instead of making false assertions about it.

Jackson123 said:

Jackson123 · Mar 13, 2015

AgeofKnowledge said:

Thank for your opinion brother.

But I have different view.
You talking about history, Constantine have great influence in the Catholicism. And after declare Catholic as official Roman religion, He still Pontifex Maximus. The highest priest in pagan roman religion.

Do you believe He doesn't put his old religions into this mixed religion call catholic.

That is why I mention about the traditions,

I agree The pagan tradition may gradually penetrate, but it is Syncretism

[h=3][TABLE="width: 650"]
[TR]
[TD]

Roman Catholicism
Founder: Emperor Constantine

Overview:
The Roman Catholic church, headquartered in Rome, Italy, has its own powerful City-State, the Vatican. The Roman Catholic church unofficially came into being in 312 A.D., at the time of the so-called "miraculous conversion" to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine but he still worshipped the sun god. Although Christianity was not made the official religion of the Roman Empire until the edicts of Theodosius I in 380 and 381 A.D., Constantine, from 312 A.D. until his death in 337, was engaged in the process of simultaneously building pagan temples and Christian churches, and was slowly turning over the reins of his pagan priesthood to the Bishop of Rome. However, the family of Constantine did not give up the last vestige of his priesthood until after the disintegration of the Roman Empire – that being the title the emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood – Pontifex Maximus – a title which the popes would inherit. The popes also inherited Constantine's titles as the self-appointed civil head of the church – Summus Pontifex (Vicar of Christ and Bishop of Bishops).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE][/h]

Catholic Heresy (for the record)

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

AgeofKnowledge

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

mikeuk

Guest

AgeofKnowledge

Guest

Senior Member

AgeofKnowledge

Guest

Senior Member