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K
kennethcadwell
Guest
I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that......
I mean, after all, WHO is surrounding KC like a pack of wolves, accusing him at every turn for the last 3-4 pages?
WHO has been name-calling KC?
WHO has been labeling him as a false teacher, a twister of the Word, & several others?
You guys don't see it yet, but you let your true colors show by treating KC so bad. Yep....
You also forget a lot of people take the side of the underdog in situations like this.
I'm sure by now most readers are wondering how KC can take all this heat without losing it..... The Holy Spirit, of course.
The very scripture you ignored is what is showing who the false & the true are........
Matthew 7:15-29 (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20[/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Now, let's finish this post out with the rest of the scripture that talks about do-nothing faith:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: [SUP]29 [/SUP]For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Thank you for your words and the pointed that out.
I do not like nor do I hold things over on others because the bible clearly us not to do this. It says we are to converse with each other in a loving, friendly manner. The Holy Spirit keeps my self control in check, and even at times I have felt like wanting to say hateful and condemning remarks in reply but the Spirit guided me not to. He said listen to me Ken, "I did not bring you this far along in the faith to let you backslide to let unedifying language come from you."
So I am slow to speak, slow to wrath as the Holy Spirit tells me and helps me to be.................
My wordage maybe a little off at times, because I am not the best speller nor am I even that good at speaking, but neither was Moses or Paul.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
BTW, KC, good job hangin' tough in here. Keep up the good work.
Or how about this one that comes from the same Hebrews 6 that has been in question;
Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
How is it a work to be kind to your neighbor? It's a fruit of the spirit, not a work.By doing good things for them, of course. That's the point. You can't love without works, neither can you believe the truth without walking in it. It requires works, no matter how you slice it.
Revelation 14:13 (KJV) And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Sorry - I just haven't read all 600 plus comments but Eph. 2:10 tells us that salvation is UNTO good works. Not BY works. (Eph. 2:8-9).
The reason I want to follow the commands, which to me are the descriptions of how to love, is that I want Christ to be seen in the world. The only people who can represent Him to the world are us Christians. So, even though if I did not works I might have salvation, but there would be no fruit of it. There would be no "light" in the darkness of the world.
The reason I want to follow the commands, which to me are the descriptions of how to love, is that I want Christ to be seen in the world. The only people who can represent Him to the world are us Christians. So, even though if I did not works I might have salvation, but there would be no fruit of it. There would be no "light" in the darkness of the world.
Ephesians 6:10-18 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [SUP]15 [/SUP]And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [SUP]16 [/SUP]Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: [SUP]18 [/SUP]Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Yep..... still standing.
Yep..... still standing.
If I pack a 20lb. bag of potatoes to my neighbor's house, what have I just did? Saying it's not a work isn't gonna fool anybody.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
The fruits of the Spirit lead to action.
The concept of work does not just mean in the job-like meaning. Works are any actions performed by a believer out of love for the Lord our God. These works do go hand and hand with salvation, because they show one has a true faith.
The works the bible speaks of that are worthless and filthy rags are those done for self, to earn, or done without love for God.
This is one reason why discussions about works and law the bible says do not get to worked up in, and become fruitless because some will always label all talk about law or works as dirty subjects. They do not know how to rightly divided the moral aspect from the written ordinance aspect. Even when one tries to help them to understand it.
This is the problem with false teaching and thinking in the flesh, because it keeps people from searching out the truth and just sticking to what they always heard rather it was false or not. I always check with the Holy Spirit and scripture to see if what another said matches up.
The Greek words pisteuo and echo was one of those situations, because those words are used in scriptures that make it sound like in the English versions salvation is ours right now. Then I came across many scriptures from Paul, Peter, and John that show salvation as the ending result by our continuation in the faith. I prayed to God about this because I know the bible can not contradict itself, and after I prayed the Holy Spirit lead me to the true definition of those two Greek words. Pisteuo is a continuation of belief leading to salvation, and echo is to have in hand as a mental assurance or confidence of receiving salvation. When putting those definitions in place it makes the whole NT work together as it suppose to do.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
This is right to an extent, but the bible shows that no fruit means not born again.
Because the fruit is not produced of ourselves, as it is done by the Holy Spirit working in and through us. The fruit is proof of the Holy Spirit abiding in a believer, and the Lord says only those who are born again will inherit eternal life.
If you call "works" doing good things for people then I completely agree with you. Where I disagree with folks is when they tie obeying the 10 commandments as "works".
I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that......
I mean, after all, WHO is surrounding KC like a pack of wolves, accusing him at every turn for the last 3-4 pages?
WHO has been name-calling KC?
WHO has been labeling him as a false teacher, a twister of the Word, & several others?
You guys don't see it yet, but you let your true colors show by treating KC so bad. Yep....
You also forget a lot of people take the side of the underdog in situations like this.
I'm sure by now most readers are wondering how KC can take all this heat without losing it..... The Holy Spirit, of course.
The very scripture you ignored is what is showing who the false & the true are........
Matthew 7:15-29 (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [SUP]20[/SUP]Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Now, let's finish this post out with the rest of the scripture that talks about do-nothing faith:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: [SUP]29 [/SUP]For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Hmmmm
See you didn't respond to my previous post to you
I admit to having an aversion to people who just quote the literal letter and demand of others what they fail to achieve in their own life. This is born out of seeing the destruction caused to people who believe what they say.
I learnt in the ''born again'' church where I spent many years in my youth, a church that emphasised the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today and insisted on righteous living of a very high standard, that the most dangerous churches are those who insist on such a high degree of righteous living, but fail to forthrightly preach the grace of the bible alongside it.
I wont mention the particular denomination, I wouldn't want to offend. Please remember the people Jesus reserved his harshest words for were religious people who knew the literal letter inside out and demanded of others what they failed to attain to in their own life. Many people go to church today with the same attitude
This post is a perfect example of "proof texting." It means you pull a verse out of the context of the passage, and twist it to say something else.
Just before verse 31, Paul emphatically states the following:
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [SUP]22 [/SUP]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Romans 3:21-24
"[J]ustified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," means that NO work of the law, will justify or make us right before God.
Further, Romans 3 was not written in isolation from the rest of Romans. Romans 3 is about outlining the problem of life, which is sin. Romans 4 through 8 goes into the solution for sin - which is Jesus Christ's death and resurrection.
"[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void." Romans 4:13-14
"Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Romans 4:27-28
Over and over, Paul in the theological treaty which is the book of Romans, Paul says the same thing.
The problem: SIN
The solution: grace and justification through faith in Jesus Christ.
NOT by works of the law!
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
"But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6
Instead of reading selectively, read for the context of the book of Romans. You will find the message of salvation by grace, and ALSO walking with Christ and obeying him popping off every single page and chapter!
Of course, Romans 8 is the strongest chapter on how we have overcome sin through Jesus Christ.
"For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. " Romans 8:1-4
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30
"Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies." Romans 8:33
My suggestion to all reading this thread is to read Romans through on one reading. You will discover the amazing message of the grace of God, who justifies us, not by our works, but by the finished work of Christ on the cross.
From there, it shows us how by walking in the Spirit we continue to grow in Christ, until one day Christ returns and we are glorified.
Any other message is contrary to the truth of salvation by grace, and a works gospel that no one can fulfill.
"But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place." 2 Cor. 2:14
A woman once said, ''The two denominations that find it the hardest to accept the grace of the bible are Pentecostals and Catholics.'' That seemd a strange comment, as doctrinally they are poles apart, yet upon reflection I understood why she said that.
Please post the Greek spelling for "echo," as I cannot figure out which word you are talking about.
Further, please post some verses in Greek which use the two words, "pisteuo and echo," and demonstrate how these verses support your point that salvation is by works.
If you can't post the actual Greek, please refrain from using it improperly. I suggest you actually study the Greek, and you will find a totally different message than the one you have been preaching.
That is: salvation is by grace, not by works. We are justified by faith, which is totally a work of God. Sanctification, in which we are transformed through our life by God, is also a work of God. True, we cooperate, but we could not cooperate if the Holy Spirit did not initiate and lead us through every step of the journey.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
That part I highlighted is not completely true.
Lord Jesus said those harsh things to the Pharisees because they were to teach and uphold the laws. However they twisted, added on extra stumbling blocks, did stuff for self gratification, and financial gain. Just like the Lord said they turned the house of God into a den of thieves. The Pharisees corrupted His words, not followed by them.
Which is why the Lord told the crowd around Him to listen and do what the Pharisees said when it comes to the law, but do not do as they do as they corrupted the law. Lord Jesus supported the following of the law, but not the corruption of it that the Pharisees did.
[h=3]A Warning Against Hypocrisy[/h]23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Everything they do is done for people to see Matt23:1-5
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. [SUP]28 [/SUP]In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Matt23:25-28
From The Eight Rules of Bible Interpretation
7) The rule of GENRE JUDGMENT: A "literal" approach to Scripture recognizes that the Bible contains a variety of literary genres, each of which has certain peculiar characteristics that must be recognized in order to interpret the text properly.The Old testament: The first 5 books of the Bible are called the Pentateuch, which is Hebrew for the number 5 (Genesis - Deuteronomy). The next 5 books are historical books (Joshua - 2 Samuel). The next 12 books are poetic (1 Kings - Solomon). The next 5 books are major prophets (Isaiah - Daniel). The next 12 books are minor prophets (Hosea - Malachi).The New Testament: The first 4 books are the gospels (Matthew - John). The next one is Historic (Acts). The next 14 books are the epistles (Romans - Hebrews), which are letters addressing specific problems. The next 7 books are general epistles (James - Jude). And the last book is prophetic (Revelation).Obviously, an incorrect genre judgment will lead one far astray in interpreting Scripture. A parable should not be treated as history, nor should poetry or prophesy (both of which contain many symbols) be treated as straightforward narrative. The wise interpreter allows his knowledge of genres to control how he approaches each individual biblical text. In this way, he can accurately determine what the biblical author was intending to communicate to the reader.Now, even though the Bible contains a variety of literary genres and many figures of speech, the biblical authors most often employed literal statements to convey their ideas. Where they use a literal means to express their ideas, the Bible expositor must employ a corresponding means to explain these ideas - namely, a literal approach. A literal method of interpreting Scripture gives to each word in the text the same basic meaning it would have in normal, ordinary, customary usage - whether employed in writing, speaking, or thinking. Without such a method, communication between God and man is impossible.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύωDefinition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.
1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context,Matthew 24:23,(26); Mark 13:21; 1 Corinthians 11:18; with an accusative of the thing, Acts 13:41 (L T Tr WH ὁ for Rec. ᾧ),to credit, have confidence, followed by ὅτι, Acts 9:26; τίνι, to believe one's words,Mark 16:13; 1 John 4:1; τίνι ὅτι, John 4:21; τῷ ψεύδει, 2 Thessalonians 2:11; περί τίνος, ὅτι, John 9:18.
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, πιστεύειν is used in the N. T. of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: Matthew 8:13; Matthew 21:22; Mark 5:36; Mark 9:23;Luke 8:50; John 11:40
#2192 ἔχω echo {ekh'-o} including an alternate form scheo {skheh'-o}, used in certain tenses only), a primary verb; TDNT - 2:816,286; v
1) to have, i.e. to hold 1a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess 2a) external things such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc. 2b) used of those joined to any one by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc, of attendance or companionship 3) to hold one's self or find one's self so and so, to be in such or such a condition 4) to hold one's self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to 4a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing
2 Peter 1:15.accompanyHebrews 6:9.amActs 21:13. 2 Corinthians 12:14.areMatthew 9:12; 24:19. Mark 2:17; 13:17. Luke 5:31. 1 Timothy 5:25. Hebrews 12:1.artJohn 8:57.beMatthew 9:12. Philemon 1:8.beenJohn 5:6.beganJohn 4:52.beingRevelation 12:2.couldMark 14:8. Acts 4:14. Hebrews 6:13.countPhilemon 1:17.countedMatthew 14:5. Mark 11:32.deathMark 5:23.doActs 15:36.fast2 Timothy 1:13.followingLuke 13:33.go1 Corinthians 6:7.hadMatthew 3:4; 12:10; 13:5, 5, 6, 46; 18:25, 25; 21:28; 22:28; 27:16. Mark 1:22; 2:25; 3:1, 3, 10; 4:5, 5, 6;5:3, 15; 7:25; 8:7, 14; 12:23, 44. Luke 4:33, 40; 6:8; 7:42; 8:27; 9:11; 13:6, 11; 15:11; 16:1; 17:6; 20:33;21:4. John 4:18; 5:5; 11:17; 12:6; 13:29; 15:22, 22, 24, 24; 17:5. Acts 2:44; 4:35; 9:31; 13:5; 14:9; 18:18;19:13; 24:19; 25:19; 28:9, 19, 29. 1 Corinthians 7:29. 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2:13; 7:5. Galatians 4:22. 1 Thessalonians 1:9. Hebrews 2:14; 7:6; 9:1, 4, 4; 10:2; 11:15; 12:9. 1 John 2:7. 2 John 1:5. 3 John 1:13. Revelation 1:16; 4:4, 7, 8; 6:2, 5; 8:6, 9; 9:8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 19; 10:2; 13:11, 14, 17; 14:18, 18; 16:2; 17:1;18:19; 19:12; 21:9, 12, 12, 14, 15, 23.hastMatthew 25:25. Mark 10:21. Luke 12:19; 18:22. John 4:11, 18; 6:68; 7:20; 8:48, 52; 13:8. Acts 23:19. Romans 2:20; 14:22. 1 Corinthians 8:10. Philemon 1:5. James 2:18. Revelation 2:3, 6, 14, 15; 3:1, 4, 8, 11.hathMatthew 5:23; 8:20; 9:6; 11:15, 18; 13:9, 12, 12, 12, 43, 44; 21:3; 25:28, 29, 29, 29. Mark 2:10; 3:22, 26,29, 30; 4:9, 25, 25, 25; 9:17; 11:3. Luke 3:11, 11, 11; 5:24; 7:33; 8:8, 18, 18; 9:58; 12:5; 14:35; 19:24, 25,26, 26, 26, 31, 34; 22:36, 36; 24:39. John 3:29, 36; 4:44; 5:24, 26; 6:9, 47, 54; 10:20; 12:48; 14:21; 15:13;16:15, 21; 19:11. Acts 9:14; 15:21; 23:17, 18. Romans 4:2; 9:21. 1 Corinthians 7:7, 12, 13, 37; 12:12;14:26, 26, 26, 26, 26.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Yes I know that scripture but it does not go against what I said, they do not practice what they teach because they defiled the law and added to it. They did things to be seen, hince self gratification, and did not show love to help others in need just held them done in their burdens and added more to them.