question about submission

[psychomom]

Marriage works as a partnership. But even in a partnership, there is authorization to call the shots in the case of unresolvable disagreement.

Barring mental impairment, if the woman loves her husband, why would she not lovingly submit to his headship as Scripture requires when necessary?

well, that's it in a nutshell.
the buck's gotta stop somewhere, right?

JF, i know of many marriages where the wife's (God given!) IQ is higher than her husband's.
i suppose that may be the case for me, but, my husband is wiser than i, and better
at actual r-e-a-l life. (the king of life-hacks! lol)

modern day feminism has made Biblical submission seem a bad thing,
and it just ain't. in real life it's not only necessary and Biblical, it's lovely.
a few things it isn't: not being tyrannized, not being abused, not being ignored, etc.

you might be surprised, when you get there, to find you learn all sorts of things through it,
and are tremendously blessed by it.
my husband and i have had very few times we weren't in agreement on an issue,
and when i was younger though we did what he thought best, my attitude stunk.

but i have learned to trust God by trusting my husband, if that makes sense.
and through it all, the Lord has provided His best (surprise! lol), even when it wasn't what i thought i wanted.
truly, when both partners are behaving in God prescribed ways...
it's really quite nice.

 

[psychomom]

also---God does not command you to submit to all men!
(how could that even be??)

and yes, a marriage is in many ways an equal partnership.
your husband should consult you, listen to you, take advice on issues from you, care about what you think.

it's just when the two of you can't reach an agreement after all that stuff, someone has to be responsible for the ultimate decision, and God has ordained that be the husband.

but when he loves you....it's easy.

 

[jsr1221]

I am not saying a woman should not submit nor am I saying the man is not the head. What I am saying is that yes the man is the head BUT there should be mutual submission because then the wife gets stuck being all "yes dear" and and not really having any freedom. I feel like these passages have been really warped by the world because no matter how many times you say "oh women are equal" there is always that "but not really because she has to do what the husband tells her." Someone on here explained how slaves have to submit to their masters. A wife is not a slave. A slave/master relationship is miles away from a marriage relationship. I think if marriage and slavery looked a like that would make for a VERY unhealthy marriage. Same with the father comparison. Someone on here also pointed out how a wife should obey a husband like a father. A daddy/daughter relationship is SO different from marriage. It would make the marriage SOOO unhealthy if the wife and husband had a father/daughter type thing going. *shudder*

Thoughts?

We had a sermon on womanhood today. There is nowhere in the Bible where it says women are supposed to submit to men. Now it says wives submit to their husbands, in the sense that women and men are equal partners. But no where does it mention women are inferior to men and need to submit to our authority.

 

[presidente]

I am not saying a woman should not submit nor am I saying the man is not the head. What I am saying is that yes the man is the head BUT there should be mutual submission because then the wife gets stuck being all "yes dear" and "no dear" and not really having any freedom. I feel like these passages have been really warped by the world because no matter how many times you say "oh women are equal" there is always that "but not really because she has to do what the husband tells her."

I've spent many years in Indonesia. I notice that American Christians talk a lot more about 'equality'. Everyone has to be equal. Even if it doesn't make sense in context, insisting that people are 'equal' makes others feel okay. The Bible doesn't focus on people being equal. A lot of American preachers will assert things about equality that aren't in the Bible. And their audience obsesses over equality even when it is not important. Equality is important in our own national philosophy, but we have no reason to think that God is as concerned about this, at least from what is revealed in scripture.

You could compare Joe the plumber, a regular guy who made the news for some comments on the campaign trail a while back, with President Obama. Are they equal? Let's say Obama is good at basketball (which I heard from a former teacher of his) and that Joe the plumber isn't. They aren't equal at playing basketball. President Obama commands the army, navy, airforce, and marines. He has more military power than Joe the plumber. President Obama is able to create laws by executive order without even going through the Congress. He has more legislative power than Joe the plumber. They are not equal in this regard.

But send them both to a house with a broken sink. Obama probably would have little success fixing a complicated plumbing problem that Joe the plumber could fix equally. So they aren't equal in this regard.

Now compare women and men: opening a jar of pickles? Women aren't the equal of men? Giving birth? Not equal. Women win.

But we have to call everyone 'equal' so everyone feels good, when it means nothing at all.

Regarding your comment that if there isn't mutual submission in marriage, the wife says, 'yes, dear'-- I don't think it's wrong for a wife to say 'yes' or to call her husband 'dear.' But a man that loves his wife seeks to please her. In marriages where both husband and wife are dedicated to wives submitting to their husbands, if the husband loves his wife, he will generally want to know her mind on something, what she wants, at least if it is a matter important to her. (Men may not ask their wives which brand of muffler she wants him to buy and put on the car.)

Someone on here explained how slaves have to submit to their masters. A wife is not a slave. A slave/master relationship is miles away from a marriage relationship. I think if marriage and slavery looked a like that would make for a VERY unhealthy marriage.

If a wife is as submissive as a slave, I don't see that as a problem. But if a husband treats her like a slave, that's a problem. I brought it up because it helps us to interpret scripture. Ephesians 5-6 says to submit to one another and then explains who is to submit to whom: wives to husbands, children to parents, and slaves to masters. Paul doesn't say for husbands to submit to wives, parents to submit to their children, or slaves to submit to their masters when he actually breaks down who is to submit to whom.

Same with the father comparison. Someone on here also pointed out how a wife should obey a husband like a father. A daddy/daughter relationship is SO different from marriage. It would make the marriage SOOO unhealthy if the wife and husband had a father/daughter type thing going. *shudder*

The similarity is that both are relationships where there is supposed to be submission. They aren't the same in other aspects. I don't think anyone wants you to marry an old guy, go around wearing pig tails, and call him daddy.

My wife has had a bit of a struggle with submission, and over time as the Lord has worked on her, she has embraced it more. She told me after a time when the Lord did a big work in her heart in this area that she has a lot more peace now. From my perspective, the marriage is a lot better and she enjoys it more, too. The main thing is to please God with the marriage. We all have to give up areas here we could choose insist on our own fleshly desires, in order to please God.

 

[Elin]

We had a sermon on womanhood today. There is nowhere in the Bible where it says women are supposed to submit to men. Now it says wives submit to their husbands, in the sense that women and men are equal partners. But no where does it mention women are inferior to men and need to submit to our authority.

The wife is to submit to the head of the marriage, and women are not to have authority over men in the church; i.e, preaching, teaching men, or elders of the church.

 

[Angela53510]

"21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord." Eph. 5:21-22

These are the verses as translated by the ESV, which has a complementarian slant. However, "submit" does not appear in most Greek versions in verse 22!

"21 ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ.
22 Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ," Eph. 5:21-22

Hupotassomenoi or ὑποτασσόμενοι in the Greek does not appear in verse 22.

In verse 21, ὑποτασσόμενοι is the present middle or deponent participle. Middle tense is something we do not have in English, but basically it is something we do ourselves, while allowing it to be done to us. It means "to line oneself up under, to submit." It is used here in the military sense of soldiers submitting to their superior, or slaves submitting to their masters. The word has primarily the idea of giving up one's right or will, to subordinate oneself.

This leads to the fact that we are all to mutually submit one to another, in fear of Christ. Ultimately, Christ is the authority over all of us. That means we will answer to Christ in judgement day for how we have "come under" one another.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt. 28:18

I have always tried to submit to my husband, who thought for years that "blind obedience" was for wives, rather than "submission," which is the act of me bringing myself under him, as he brings himself under me, as mutual believers in Christ. But I know God has blessed me, and my husband has radically changed in understanding that he also needs to submit to me, especially in areas where I have the expertise, such as the household, and other areas.

As wives, we need to respect, love and care for our husbands. However, this does not mean submitting to tyranny disguised as a biblical mandate or some twisted plan of God. Christian husbands can learn to submit as fellow believers and joint heirs with Christ to their wives, and so make for a more harmonious relationship.

I believe that Eph. 5:21 s a key verse in all relationships between Christians. If we were all willing to come under one another in love, there would be much less fighting within the church, and we could be better witnesses to the world as to the work Christ has done in all our hearts and lives!

 

[jsr1221]

The wife is to submit to the head of the marriage, and women are not to have authority over men in the church; i.e, preaching, teaching men, or elders of the church.

Not submit as in being inferior. Women are equally important as men. God made Eve because He said it's not good for Man (Adam) to be alone. Hence, women are made to support and respect their husbands. And men are to support and love their wives.

 

[Elin]

I am not saying a woman should not submit nor am I saying the man is not the head. What I am saying is that yes the man is the head BUT there should be mutual submission because then the wife gets stuck being all "yes dear" and "no dear" and not really having any freedom. I feel like these passages have been really warped by the world because no matter how many times you say "oh women are equal" there is always that "but not really because she has to do what the husband tells her." Someone on here explained how slaves have to submit to their masters. A wife is not a slave. A slave/master relationship is miles away from a marriage relationship. I think if marriage and slavery looked a like that would make for a VERY unhealthy marriage. Same with the father comparison. Someone on here also pointed out how a wife should obey a husband like a father. A daddy/daughter relationship is SO different from marriage. It would make the marriage SOOO unhealthy if the wife and husband had a father/daughter type thing going. *shudder*

Thoughts?

You're young, and I suspect have not yet experienced a loving marriage.

You're speaking from theory instead of personal experience.
Has your theoretical thinking been brainwashed by feminism?

 

[PoetMary]

You're young, and I suspect have not yet experienced a loving marriage.

You're speaking from theory instead of personal experience.
Has your theoretical thinking been brainwashed by feminism?

(sigh) What's up with all the ad hominems?

So she's young? Jesus was 12 in the Temple when he was speaking wisdom.

So she's unmarried. Jesus never married.

Why not ASK her why she thinks as she does instead of presuming that she's been "brainwashed by feminism"?

As an aside: Feminism doesn't really address the issues of an individually negotiated relationship in a marriage. It's more about political access, educational access, opportunity access, job access, and the understanding that women are not inferior to men. If a woman voluntarily submits to a man, then she's engaging in FREE WILL and SELF-DETERMINATION. This is what feminism is about.

 

[keepitsimple]

So I was reading this book and it explained how after the verses about wives submitting and husbands loving there's a verse that says, "husbands and wives must submit to one another as is fitting to the Lord." (I think I got that right.) Well this book says that husbands and wives are to submit to eacother based on that verse. Also it explained that submission is an act of free will. I never heard it explained that way. What are your thoughts on this? I don't think it's saying the man isn't the head I just think it's saying that 1) submission is not shameful and 2) submission is not just for a woman to do. Thoughts?

Keep in mind JF that the apostle Paul was instructing women on a marriage principle ... and was not giving the men a "wink wink" on not honoring their own instructions first and foremost. In real life application, it comes down to this IMO. Wives ... be supportive and understanding ... and do not place unnecessary burdens on your husbands thru unrealistic demands. Husbands ... while being supportive and understanding as well, strive to please your wives in all things, considering her very life, her needs and her reasonable desires above your own. The irony in discussions of this nature is rarely, if ever, does the "who has the final say" quotient ever come into play in a healthy and Christ-centered marriage. I would only caution that any man who feels the need to "emphasize his God-given authority" over his wife has failed to understand his obligation and duties first to Christ ... and secondly, to his wife. I'll get off my soapbox now

 

[Elin]

(sigh) What's up with all the ad hominems?

So she's young? Jesus was 12 in the Temple when he was speaking wisdom.

So she's unmarried. Jesus never married.

Why not ASK her why she thinks as she does instead of presuming that she's been "brainwashed by feminism"?

There's no substitute for experience in the natural order.

 

[JFSurvivor]

You're young, and I suspect have not yet experienced a loving marriage.

You're speaking from theory instead of personal experience.
Has your theoretical thinking been brainwashed by feminism?

No I have not been brainwashed by feminism. PoetMary said it best when she explained what feminism was so I don't need to repeat that. Anyway I have just had too many guys use that verse on me like "oh when we get married you have to do whatever I say" one even went so far as to say that he was gonna chain his wife to a fence. I am not in a relationship with these....idiots anymore but the fact that they used the Bible in that way against me both confused, scared and hurt me.

There were multiple other woman-shaming issues I have had with guys but I'm not gonna go in to that. They were mainly kitchen jokes and this one guy asked me if there was anything good about being a woman. He listed everything that was good about being a man and asked if I could name one good thing about being a woman and I couldn't..at least not at the time. At the time I hated myself for being a woman but that's another long story.

 

[keepitsimple]

Anyway I have just had too many guys use that verse on me like "oh when we get married you have to do whatever I say" one even went so far as to say that he was gonna chain his wife to a fence. I am not in a relationship with these....idiots anymore but the fact that they used the Bible in that way against me both confused, scared and hurt me.

Clearly a distortion (and abuse) of intent and meaning JF. Avoid this type like you would the plague. You'll know the real deal when you see it

 

[JFSurvivor]

Here's the story it actually relates now that I think about it:

I kept hearing guys be like "women have to submit" and I hated myself for being a woman because I thought my existence was some cruel joke that God played on me. Why did he give me a brain if I was just meant to follow orders from my future husband? All the kitchen jokes I was hearing just re-enforced this. I HATED MYSELF because I was a woman and I hated God for creating me as a woman. For creating me as a second class citizen. Does this make sense?

Well I stopped hating myself and my gender and I think I am getting a better handle on the whole submission thing (see post #1) however I can't believe that women were created to submit to their husbands and their husbands have all this authority and can do whatever they want just because they are a man. Some of the verses that have been quoted in this thread have been used to severely hurt me and damage my relationship with God. So please think before you post and think about how it could be misinterpreted.

The Bible isn't bad, it's just how we interpret it. We can either use the Bible for good or for evil.

And those are my thoughts on that.

 

[JFSurvivor]

Keep in mind JF that the apostle Paul was instructing women on a marriage principle ... and was not giving the men a "wink wink" on not honoring their own instructions first and foremost. In real life application, it comes down to this IMO. Wives ... be supportive and understanding ... and do not place unnecessary burdens on your husbands thru unrealistic demands. Husbands ... while being supportive and understanding as well, strive to please your wives in all things, considering her very life, her needs and her reasonable desires above your own. The irony in discussions of this nature is rarely, if ever, does the "who has the final say" quotient ever come into play in a healthy and Christ-centered marriage. I would only caution that any man who feels the need to "emphasize his God-given authority" over his wife has failed to understand his obligation and duties first to Christ ... and secondly, to his wife. I'll get off my soapbox now

*applauds* wonderfully said!

 

[tourist]

Here's the story it actually relates now that I think about it:

I kept hearing guys be like "women have to submit" and I hated myself for being a woman because I thought my existence was some cruel joke that God played on me. Why did he give me a brain if I was just meant to follow orders from my future husband? All the kitchen jokes I was hearing just re-enforced this. I HATED MYSELF because I was a woman and I hated God for creating me as a woman. For creating me as a second class citizen. Does this make sense?

Well I stopped hating myself and my gender and I think I am getting a better handle on the whole submission thing (see post #1) however I can't believe that women were created to submit to their husbands and their husbands have all this authority and can do whatever they want just because they are a man. Some of the verses that have been quoted in this thread have been used to severely hurt me and damage my relationship with God. So please think before you post and think about how it could be misinterpreted.

The Bible isn't bad, it's just how we interpret it. We can either use the Bible for good or for evil.

And those are my thoughts on that.

Regarding marital submission of the wife, the Bible says that the husbands should love their wives. You are exactly right about how the Bible can be used for good or evil as there is power in the Word. You certainly do not have to take orders from any future husband - avoid those crazy types who twist the word to their own evil pleasure and schemes.

 

[GaryA]

and yes, a marriage is in many ways an equal partnership.

True.

your husband should consult you, listen to you, take advice on issues from you, care about what you think.

However -- "listen carefully" ( JF ) -- In the context of what psychomom is saying here -- your husband will do these things, not because he submits to you - but, because he loves you...

Understand?

 

[presidente]

"21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord." Eph. 5:21-22

These are the verses as translated by the ESV, which has a complementarian slant. However, "submit" does not appear in most Greek versions in verse 22!

"21 ὑποτασσόμενοι ἀλλήλοις ἐν φόβῳ Χριστοῦ.
22 Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ," Eph. 5:21-22

Hupotassomenoi or ὑποτασσόμενοι in the Greek does not appear in verse 22.

Which reinforces the idea that Paul is using delineation, meaning he says to submit to each other and then says who is to submit to whom. Submit to one another: wives to husbands....Children obey your parents.

Collosians 3 and I Peter 3 have the word translated 'submit' in the texts that tells wives to submit to husbands, don't they?

 

[GaryA]

But no where does it mention women are inferior to men and need to submit to our authority.

These two things have nothing to do with each other!

Submission of wives to their husbands has nothing to do with any woman being inferior to any man - and the Bible does not suggest any such thing!

Submission of wives to their husbands has to do with the will of God.

( i.e. - "that is the way God wants it" )

 

[PoetMary]

There's no substitute for experience in the natural order.

Actually, that's a philosophical construct. It's the same argument, btw, that people use when they claim not to believe in God because they've never seen him. It was the construct, btw, that Thomas was working under when he questioned the risen Jesus.

The idea that experience is the ONLY route to knowledge and insight is not accurate.