SAVED BY WORKS

[eternally-gratefull]

I have noticed that there is a basic premise that both sides seem to agree on.

Both seem to agree that salvation is by Grace through Faith in Jesus. And most seem to agree that that faith produces good works/fruit though the Spirit.

The issue seems to be that if one person thinks there is a particular fruit and another person disagrees then they accuse of works based salvation. That really is not fair or logical.

As both believe that faith produces some kind of Fruit it is pointless and fruitless to keep accusing people of works based salvation. and then not listen when they say you have misunderstood them.

being that all seem to agree that we are saved by faith lets actually examine the fruit what is the fruit according to the bible.

No this is not so.

We all teach that we should have fruits, And we all teach that good works, and seeking the things of the spirit helps us not sin, Be blessed, and grow in our lord and savior.

It becomes legalism when eternal life/salvation is based on these works. and if some of them are not done, or one does not do them to a certain degree, then that salvation is lost. That is legalism.

 

[dcontroversal]

No I did not miss it.

did you miss the point where he says their is no more condemnation to all of us in christ? If we can fall back to condemnation again, then we are still under condemnation.

remember, God is outside of time, a 1000 years is but a blink of an eye to him, stop thinking in human terms, you have people being saved, unsaved, saved unsaved saved unsaved over an over in a lifetime, which to God is not even 1/10000 of a second.

Paul is telling us in romans 7 the situation we all go through as children of God.

he is telling is in romans 8, not to fret, we are not under condemnation but grace, and telling us how to over come the flesh. by seeking the things of the spirit.

romans 8 gives all Gods children hope. and shows them how to not fall into sin, not by following some law, or rules and regulation, but looking outward in love (the spirit) and not self (carnal)

No doubt.....it is simple at the end of the day and many want to convolute it and be removed from the simplicity that is in Christ.....either the sacrifice of Christ and work of Christ is good enough to save a person and keep them saved or it is not....those who say you can lose it and must KEEP yourself saved by works, adherence to the law or some set of rules/regulations state clearly that the finished work of Christ and mediation of Christ before the Father on behalf of the believer is not sufficient........

Which is (easier)<--misnomer.....for Jesus to save someone from the millions of sins they have committed before salvation and or to mediate for a sin committed when committed.....

Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound...........Jesus either paid the entire sin debt or he did not and if not...everyone cooks........!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is indeed present tense but what about this:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Paul in Romans 7 is captive to the law of sin, Yet in Romans 8 he is free in Christ form the law of sin. It would seem that there has been a change from the 7 description to the one in 8.

he is free from the law of sin and death, because the law which condemns him has been taken away, and can not longer touch him,

His righteousness is now in Christ, not in himself. this frees him to seek after God. and not worry about his life he has in romans seven, it is the antidote for those who understand they still sin, and the law would still condemn them,

Which us people who have found grace and true faith in Christ understand we ALL still have this issue

for those in legalism, they deny this fact (such has Kenny here has done numerous times) and will never fully understand or appreciate romans 8, because romans 7 does not apply to them today, not convict them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

no, what you have done is post a bunch of scriptures out of context. which tells us to do all the WORKS in order to GAIN salvation.

Thats works, the more you post, the more self righteous works you claim one must do.

Once again your false assumption because I gave no personal context with those scriptures.
I only posted the scriptures alone, and they do say clearly that we seek for, it is the end of our faith, and we have hope of receiving salvation. Not one of those scriptures can be taken to put salvation as an immediate physical possession unless twisted, for as Apostle Paul said we have hope of salvation (mental assurance).

 

[kennethcadwell]

he is free from the law of sin and death, because the law which condemns him has been taken away, and can not longer touch him,

His righteousness is now in Christ, not in himself. this frees him to seek after God. and not worry about his life he has in romans seven, it is the antidote for those who understand they still sin, and the law would still condemn them,

Which us people who have found grace and true faith in Christ understand we ALL still have this issue

for those in legalism, they deny this fact (such has Kenny here has done numerous times) and will never fully understand or appreciate romans 8, because romans 7 does not apply to them today, not convict them.

Romans 7 does not apply to those in the faith who walk in the Spirit, as Apostle Paul clearly says in Romans 8. Paul says there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ that walk by the Spirit (not carnally minded / Romans 8) and not by the flesh (carnally minded / Romans 7). If you are still carnally minded and walking by the flesh as Paul was explaining in Romans 7 you are not headed to eternal life because you are still condemned by the law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again your false assumption because I gave no personal context with those scriptures.
I only posted the scriptures alone, and they do say clearly that we seek for, it is the end of our faith, and we have hope of receiving salvation. Not one of those scriptures can be taken to put salvation as an immediate physical possession unless twisted, for as Apostle Paul said we have hope of salvation (mental assurance).

Yes you did.

You posted a verse out of a whole book. and claimed you use it correctly. totally ignoring context.

The bible says faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

It also says that our hope (our faith is based on) Is eternal life. (which we can not see, thus why scripture continues to say it will be in the future when we see it. right now all we can do is trust God that we HAVE IT.)

It also says, God can not lie, says we have eternal life, our hope.

Face it dude, you have no faith, because you claim you do not have eternal life. Thus your hope is a false hope, has no meaning, and is based solely on what you do or do not do (your works of righteousness which you claim you do not preach) and not on the hope of things unseen (the hope that is in Christ.)

My faith is in God.

Your faith is in self.

deny it all you want, your deceiving yourself.

 

[Jeff_56]

almost a good question.... actually good for now..... to help clarify .....

whatever works you do, who are you serving? everyone does something, while or if they are awake and living. when they do something, anything, they are serving someone --- they are doing what someone else says to do....


so, if someone does what the CREATOR of ALL LIFE says to do,

or if they do what they think a man, or a statue built of wood, or gold, or silver, or an apparition of demons,

what's the difference ? it is all in who they serve.

only one is alive and able to give life. choose today who you will serve is God's instruction.

a lot of people think they can ignore God and still live.
.
.
.
we'll all see one day. won't we ?

if it is by our works then how are we different than Buddhism?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 7 does not apply to those in the faith who walk in the Spirit, as Apostle Paul clearly says in Romans 8. Paul says there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ that walk by the Spirit (not carnally minded / Romans 8) and not by the flesh (carnally minded / Romans 7). If you are still carnally minded and walking by the flesh as Paul was explaining in Romans 7 you are not headed to eternal life because you are still condemned by the law.

Not everyone walks in the spirit 100 5 of the day, whenever they are not walking in the spirit, they are walking in romans 7.

When are you going to stop puffing yourself up and realise this?

I can be driving, and thinking of who I can serve, and what God wants me to do, or who he wants me to love (things of the spirit) and some idiot cut me off, which makes me angry, and causes me to stop my focus on God, and start focusing on self for many minutes, At this time, I am in the flesh, and my actions are carnal. And it is in sin, and I am condemned by the law as a sinner all that time I am angry, and doing whatever it is I am doing or thinking. Because I have broken the first command, and the command to love my neighbor. I will continue to be in sin, Until I return my focus on the spirit.

But of course, you deny anything like this happens to you. You are following the law. so your not condemned. And even if you did this, this was just a little screw up, or you messed up a little bit, When James said if you do this you have been found guilty of the WHOLE LAW!

ie, you excuse your own sin, while you judge others (phariseeism)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul did not murder, commit adultry, fornicate, or bear false witness in his christian life that we are told (the big sins everyone wants to shout out about)

His problem is Romans 7 was his continued self focus on things, just like my example above, (he had an issue of pride) Like we all should. he understood when he did those things, he was just as guilty as a murderer, a thief, or an adulterer. and praised God for saving a wretched souls as himself.

 

[Jeff_56]

says the pot to the kettle calling it black (at best)...... my my, how little we know !

or one hypocrite calling a true believer something that he's not..... that's an option....

we can't always see things as they are.... so..... most see things as they aren't !


if someone cuts you off btw, or slaps you on the face, or steals your shirt,

or crucifies you,



you either act like a child of Yahweh, or not..... whatever is inside will come out....

 

[tribesman]

Let's get this straight and short cut: the only work that saves sinners is the work of Jesus Christ alone. The saved soul's works are done as a way to express thankfulness to Him for a such a great salvation. These works may fall short at times and seem to be nothing in this world, but they do honor God and He is pleased in such.

1Cor.1

[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
[19] For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
[20] Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
[21] For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
[25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
[28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.
[30] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[31] That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

says the pot to the kettle calling it black (at best)...... my my, how little we know !

or one hypocrite calling a true believer something that he's not..... that's an option....

we can't always see things as they are.... so..... most see things as they aren't !


if someone cuts you off btw, or slaps you on the face, or steals your shirt,

or crucifies you,



you either act like a child of Yahweh, or not..... whatever is inside will come out....

if the kettle is black, dont call it white, call it what it is.

Thats what jesus did, and thats what Paul did.

this kindler gentler world of being afraid to show someone the error of their ways, because we may hurt their feelings is from satan, not God. You do not love someone by letting continue in unbelief and allow them to go to hell, without confronting them in love, and showing them where they have it wrong.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes you did.

You posted a verse out of a whole book. and claimed you use it correctly. totally ignoring context.

The bible says faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

It also says that our hope (our faith is based on) Is eternal life. (which we can not see, thus why scripture continues to say it will be in the future when we see it. right now all we can do is trust God that we HAVE IT.)

It also says, God can not lie, says we have eternal life, our hope.

Face it dude, you have no faith, because you claim you do not have eternal life. Thus your hope is a false hope, has no meaning, and is based solely on what you do or do not do (your works of righteousness which you claim you do not preach) and not on the hope of things unseen (the hope that is in Christ.)

My faith is in God.

Your faith is in self.

deny it all you want, your deceiving yourself.

No I posted multiple verses that all are on the same subject, and show the same result that salvation is the ending result of our faith and not the beginning. These were also just a handful as there are many more that say to seek for, hope for, continue in the faith, and so on to receive eternal life. 1-5 scriptures I could see being misused, even up to 10 possibly, but when there is over 25 scriptures in the NT that point to eternal life being received when the Lord returns can not be ignored to place it at the beginning of our faith.

Yes faith is the substance of things hoped for, and what Paul says we hope for when it comes to our faith in Jesus is to receive eternal life. Faith is not salvation or everybody that calls Jesus their Lord and Savior will get eternal life, but Jesus clearly says that just calling Him your Lord is not enough if you continue to walk a sinful lifestyle. " I never knew you who practices lawlessness. " (Matthew 7:23)

Apostle Paul shows that lawlessness means you transgress His laws, and no we can not transgress the 613 Mosaic laws because they do not apply in the new covenant. But we do still have God's moral laws that are written in our hearts and on our minds to uphold by walking in love. From here if you transgress His moral laws there no longer remains a sacrifice for that sin but a fearful expectation of facing judgment and the lake of fire, if you do not repent of them. People want to take and make it to where there is no standards a believer has to keep, but by thanking that way they have just tossed out over 50% of the new testament. There would be no need for Apostle Paul to constantly warn believers of how they can and can not walk if it does not matter. If a person is going to heaven any way, warning them to stop walking a certain way is worthless. Yet Apostle Paul did this in his epistles, yet when people do it now and call people out on their sins like Paul did you call them judgmental. Jesus, and Paul both did set back and let people continue to live a wrongful life that is enmity to God. No they constantly told people they could not continue to walk in those ways.............

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No I posted multiple verses that all are on the same subject, and show the same result that salvation is the ending result of our faith and not the beginning. These were also just a handful as there are many more that say to seek for, hope for, continue in the faith, and so on to receive eternal life. 1-5 scriptures I could see being misused, even up to 10 possibly, but when there is over 25 scriptures in the NT that point to eternal life being received when the Lord returns can not be ignored to place it at the beginning of our faith.

Yes faith is the substance of things hoped for, and what Paul says we hope for when it comes to our faith in Jesus is to receive eternal life. Faith is not salvation or everybody that calls Jesus their Lord and Savior will get eternal life, but Jesus clearly says that just calling Him your Lord is not enough if you continue to walk a sinful lifestyle. " I never knew you who practices lawlessness. " (Matthew 7:23)

Apostle Paul shows that lawlessness means you transgress His laws, and no we can not transgress the 613 Mosaic laws because they do not apply in the new covenant. But we do still have God's moral laws that are written in our hearts and on our minds to uphold by walking in love. From here if you transgress His moral laws there no longer remains a sacrifice for that sin but a fearful expectation of facing judgment and the lake of fire, if you do not repent of them. People want to take and make it to where there is no standards a believer has to keep, but by thanking that way they have just tossed out over 50% of the new testament. There would be no need for Apostle Paul to constantly warn believers of how they can and can not walk if it does not matter. If a person is going to heaven any way, warning them to stop walking a certain way is worthless. Yet Apostle Paul did this in his epistles, yet when people do it now and call people out on their sins like Paul did you call them judgmental. Jesus, and Paul both did set back and let people continue to live a wrongful life that is enmity to God. No they constantly told people they could not continue to walk in those ways.............

lmao. your getting desperate my friend.

Licentious gospel will not save anyone. we have been through this 1000 times, yet you keep bringing it up..

yet jesus was not talking to licentious people when he said they will say to me lord lord.

he was talking to legalists like you, who profess your works will save you. he will tell you flat out, he NEVER KNEW YOU. he will never tell someone they lost salvation, because that is not possible.

If I do not have eternal life right now. I have no hope. if I have no hope. I have no faith, if I have no faith, I have no salvation.

all I am left with is doing what you do be good, do all these religious works, and pray I do enough to save myself. ie trust myself. because my hope is in my deeds and my works (like yours is) and not in Christ and his promises.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Paul did not murder, commit adultry, fornicate, or bear false witness in his christian life that we are told (the big sins everyone wants to shout out about)

His problem is Romans 7 was his continued self focus on things, just like my example above, (he had an issue of pride) Like we all should. he understood when he did those things, he was just as guilty as a murderer, a thief, or an adulterer. and praised God for saving a wretched souls as himself.

Wrong again, as Apostle Paul before his conversion when he was the Pharisee Saul was guilty of persecuting and killing Christians. He is the one that stood by and allowed/approved Apostle Stephen being stoned to death...

 

[Jeff_56]

hopefully someone earlier is actually just misunderstanding and not really serving the enemy.

those who willfully sin die for their sin. that's pretty simple, isn't it?

those who are born from above don't willfully continue sin...... hard to mix that up, isn't it ?

 

[dcontroversal]

Wrong again, as Apostle Paul before his conversion when he was the Pharisee Saul was guilty of persecuting and killing Christians. He is the one that stood by and allowed/approved Apostle Stephen being stoned to death...

Where does it name Stephen as an APOSTLE...do you know what the word apostle means......? Quote a verse that verbatim states that STEPHEN was an APOSTLE.....Stephen is mentioned 7 times by name in Acts and in chapter 6 is identified SEPERATE from the 12.....no where is he called and or identified as an APOSTLE......you really should quit calling people apostles when they are clearly not labeled as such...that word has a connotation that is applied unto the Apostles that is not applied unto every saint and or disciple found in the N.T.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong again, as Apostle Paul before his conversion when he was the Pharisee Saul was guilty of persecuting and killing Christians. He is the one that stood by and allowed/approved Apostle Stephen being stoned to death...

No I am not wrong.

Because like you do with the word of God, you did not read what I posted and took me out of context.

You completely skipped over the part "in his christian life" which was the context of my post. so just made yourself out again to selectively read anything you read. and not focus on context. thus causing you to mistranslate what is said, and say things which are not true.

how can you live with yourself? I have to honestly ask this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hopefully someone earlier is actually just misunderstanding and not really serving the enemy.

those who willfully sin die for their sin. that's pretty simple, isn't it?

those who are born from above don't willfully continue sin...... hard to mix that up, isn't it ?

if we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us (johne spoke about himself and all believers in Christ.

Please do not try to excuse sin by saying you did not mean to do it, If your sinning, it came from your flesh, meaning you MEANT TO DO IT

 

[Jeff_56]

for little children, there were about 120 apostles in the Scripture. look it up online to see who they were. it can't be argued here due to too many who don't want to be little children.

as for the 12 who are foundations in heaven as written in NT and revelation, there are 12.