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All those in heaven from the ages are in white robes. However, I do think the emphasis is on those who die in the latter days. So, yes, I think those mentioned in Rev 6, 7, and 20 are all the same people.
Yes.
All of those in Rev 6 are also in Rev 7 but not all those in Rev 7 are in Rev 6 if that makes sense IMO. Rev 6 are those being killed now. Rev 7 are those killed during the massive Christian killing spree to come which I believe starts almost immediately after the Man of Sin is revealed.
I have no idea how ~2 billion Christians get slaughtered. I've had many theories about this in the past, some are "out there." But we have to know it will happen because we are told it will happen in many, many places.
Yup. The Bible could not be more clear. To think so many of our brothers and sisters instead see a "fly away" Rapture instead of a massive slaughter baffles me. For those that at least recognize a slaughter is coming, they apply this to what they call "Tribulation Saints" i.e., those "left behind" when there is absolutely no teaching of righteous being left behind. I want to be left behind because it is the wicked who are taken and they go to Armageddon to be killed by Christ.
Amen Brother Gary.
And, don't tell me that the falling-away back-sliding Christians of today have somehow obtained a free pass to escape tribulation while other brethren - some in the past, and some to follow - have been ordained by God to "take the brunt of it" for them...
Double Amen.
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GaryA
Guest
And, on the other end of the error spectrum, are people who "hyper-spiritualize" the book of Revelation -- which is a book full of symbolic representation about literal things. In other words - it is not purely 'literal' / 'physical' nor is it purely 'symbolic' / 'spiritual'. A proper interpretation of the symbols is necessary to obtain a proper understanding of the prophetic message that God is putting forth.
Also, [ I believe that ] Revelation prophesy is part past and part future. it has been "unfolding" over the past ~2000 years.
Like everything else, Pre-Tribbers get everything backwards. The Bible teaches we will go through the Tribulation with most of us getting slaughtered while the Pre-Tribbers see a "fly away." They see Christ coming before the Tribulation when Christ tells us he comes after it. But here is one that gets little attention. They think those being taken in the below are the righteous and that they are being taken to heaven. This is false.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
It is NOT the saved, being taken, it is the wicked. All we have to do is look back on verse.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The Coming of the Son of Man is being compared to the Flood which swept the wicked away. Luke makes it clearer.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
The location being described here is Armageddon. Christ affirms what I am saying in Mat 13:
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
The wicked are taken out of the kingdom - then the righteous will shine forth.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just...
It is the wicked being separated out.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]41 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
It is NOT the saved, being taken, it is the wicked. All we have to do is look back on verse.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
The Coming of the Son of Man is being compared to the Flood which swept the wicked away. Luke makes it clearer.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
The location being described here is Armageddon. Christ affirms what I am saying in Mat 13:
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
The wicked are taken out of the kingdom - then the righteous will shine forth.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just...
It is the wicked being separated out.
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GaryA
Guest
And, on the other end of the error spectrum, are people who "hyper-spiritualize" the book of Revelation -- which is a book full of symbolic representation about literal things. In other words - it is not purely 'literal' / 'physical' nor is it purely 'symbolic' / 'spiritual'. A proper interpretation of the symbols is necessary to obtain a proper understanding of the prophetic message that God is putting forth.
Also, [ I believe that ] Revelation prophesy is part past and part future. it has been "unfolding" over the past ~2000 years.
I too think it is part past. The first seal goes back to around 622 AD with Muhammad starting Islam. Rev 12 goes back to the birth of Christ and all the way forward through the Tribulation. Rev 21-22 discuss the future "heaven."
However, most of the book, IMO, deals with Satan's Great Tribulation and then the Wrath of God which is in response.
What specific events do you see as literal that I am saying are spiritual?
No.
.....
Here you go again. So you see the righteous being swept away? So you see the righteous eating, drinking and getting married right up until the Son of Man comes? Is that your view? You really need to reconsider that view if it is.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
Who is represented by the tares????
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popeye
Guest
It is NOT the saved, being taken, it is the wicked. All we have to do is look back on verse.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
There is no context here,"after the flood" the analogy w/noah is pre-flood/pretrib.
So what you are unconscously saying is the lord comes pretrib.
.......while at the sae time saying we do not kknow what we are talking about.
I just sank your whole theory with your own analogy
You are joking right? Pre-Flood is not an analogy for Pre-Trib. Christ is discussing His Second Coming!!! His Second Coming as we all know is Post Trib. Why is Christ comparing His Second Coming to the Great Flood? Because he kicks butt and takes no prisoners, that's why.
Just look at who is terrified of His return.
Luke 21:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26 [/SUP]men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth,
Do you see these men are compared to "seas and waves roaring?" Who else makes this analogy?
Jude:
They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
The wicked are terrified when the Lord returns at the Second Coming. I wonder why they aren't terrified at His earlier Rapture return and just at His Second Coming, Hmmmmmmm!!! Oh wait, I know why, because Christ only returns once.
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GaryA
Guest
Based on the flood comparison you are trying to make -- Noah and family were "taken" ( in the Ark ) from the rest of the population - who were "left" to face the "wrath" of the flood. The 'wicked' were not "taken" away from the 'righteous' and thrown into a 'flood' arena to receive punishment. The 'righteous' were "removed", not the 'wicked'. The 'wicked' were "left" --- "right where they were" --- to experience the "wrath" of the flood --- after the 'righteous' were "removed"...
The order of gathering in this scenario is context-dependent. It does not define the order in which the 'righteous' or 'wicked' are "removed" from the earth.
Consider:
Revelation 14:
[SUP]14[/SUP] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [SUP]15[/SUP] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [SUP]16[/SUP] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. [SUP]17[/SUP] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. [SUP]18[/SUP] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. [SUP]19[/SUP] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [SUP]20[/SUP] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
In this passage, it is indicated that the 'righteous' are "collected" first - and then, afterward, the 'wicked'.
Must this passage agree with the verse you posted ( quoted above )? Of course, it does...
The context of each passage defines the extent of significance of the order in which the events that are described occur.
In the above Revelation 14 passage -- the imagery is 'symbolic' -- the 'wicked' are not actually "taken" and thrown into a winepress -- except in the context of the imagery.
In reality, they are "left" --- "right where they are" --- to experience the Wrath of God, as it is "poured out" upon the whole earth --- after the 'righteous' are "removed"....
Yeah, we are going to have to speak to Jesus about His analogy when we see him.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Who was Christ eluding to when He spoke of those who were eating and drinking and didn't know until the flood came and swept them away? It wasn't Noah. Noah knew, that's why he built the ark. The truth is the flood was global thus regardless of where the wicked were, they were going to be swept away. Noah, on the other hand remained right where God put him, on the ark, and Noah knew.
We know that Christ "gathers" when He returns because He tells us He does, or does He?
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Is Christ speaking in the first person in the above or is He speaking of the Father? Where are the elect being "gathered" to?
Micah 2:12
“I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people.
Zephaniah 3:20
At that time I will bring you back, Even at the time I gather you; For I will give you fame and praise Among all the peoples of the earth, When I return your captives before your eyes,” Says the Lord.
Isaiah 11:12
He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Isaiah 56:8
The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, “Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
Ezekiel 37:21
“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
There are many more such passages. Clearly, there is a gathering of all Jews back to the Holy Land. This process started in 1948 and continues to his day. In the above OT passages, it is very clear that it is the Lord God Himself who gathers the Children of Israel back to Israel.
So, who is Christ gathering? There is no doubt He gathers also. But can Christ be gathering the same people???
Mat 13: [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
In the above the Son of Man (Christ) is clearly identified as the one who is sending out angels to gather the wicked. There can be no dispute about this.
The "WHOLE EARTH???" Do you have a passage that tells us the entire earth is subjected to God's wrath?
My view is that God's wrath is poured out upon the Muslim World. It is poured out against those who have the "mark of the beast" or have been worshiping Islam. The first bowl is pretty specific about its target.
and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
The 2nd Bowl is poured out in the region of the Sea Kingdoms (lion, leopard, bear), the area of Iran, Iraq, Syria and perhaps into Turkey and down to Lebanon.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.
The above is of course where the Beast of the Sea originates, Rev 13:1-2.
The third bowl is poured out against the springs and rivers of water. Again, this is going after those who specifically have been harming God's people.
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”
Similarly the 4th bowl is against the wicked and the 5th bowl is clearly against the throne of the beast.
Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast...
Again, God's wrath is not global, it's regional and it's targeted. At this point you are shaking your head in disbelief. Now, consider this verse.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
If God's plagues are global, where are God's people supposed to go to avoid them???
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popeye
Guest
Not only that,the noah analogy is at the beginning of the flood. Nothing at the mid or end,except the righteous return to earth.Based on the flood comparison you are trying to make -- Noah and family were "taken" ( in the Ark ) from the rest of the population - who were "left" to face the "wrath" of the flood. The 'wicked' were not "taken" away from the 'righteous' and thrown into a 'flood' arena to receive punishment. The 'righteous' were "removed", not the 'wicked'. The 'wicked' were "left" --- "right where they were" --- to experience the "wrath" of the flood --- after the 'righteous' were "removed"...
How rediculous is it to think ALL wicked are destroyed by God at the start of the GT?
That would mean that the AC has noone to tatoo a mark in their forhead.
For some reason,they can not see they have zero standing with the Noah analogy,in that nobody is caught up post flood/midflood.
The problem with your thinking is multifaceted. You think the Lord comes before the Tribulation. He doesn't. You think the Tribulation is divine wrath, it isn't, its Satan's wrath. But the biggest problem you seem to have is failure to interpret the symbolism within Revelation.
The Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan. It is the rise of radical Islam, which is the Beast of the Sea. Iran or ISIS appear poised to be that BEAST. They will attack the rest of the Muslim world and bring them into submission or they will be killed. It appears to be Shia verses Sunni at this point but both behead. They will also attack and nearly destroy Israel.
The SEA is destroyed by the Lord at His return. This is the meaning of the 2nd Bowl:
3 Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.
Those in the Sea region where the Beast is from are killed. Here is the explanation of the Sea again.
And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion.
Thus the Sea is the area of Iran, Iraq and Syria. We have companion passages telling us this same thing concerning their destruction.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
The above is the "Sea" being destroyed. Israel will no longer dwell among enemies.
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popeye
Guest
You are joking right? Pre-Flood is not an analogy for Pre-Trib. Christ is discussing His Second Coming!!! His Second Coming as we all know is Post Trib. Why is Christ comparing His Second Coming to the Great Flood? Because he kicks butt and takes no prisoners, that's why.
Just look at who is terrified of His return.
And yet there i nothing in Noah's story potrib/postflood.
But you can spin it howeer you like.
Start postflood and continue. Show me the devils army and God doing something to them postflood.show me anything at all postflood.
Remember they were having normal activities,then God's people were ushered out,then the wicked dealt with second.
In the gt god's pple are killed,and the wicked take the mark. You are just making it up as you go.
You re way,way off.
Just look at who is terrified of His return.
And yet there i nothing in Noah's story potrib/postflood.
But you can spin it howeer you like.
Start postflood and continue. Show me the devils army and God doing something to them postflood.show me anything at all postflood.
Remember they were having normal activities,then God's people were ushered out,then the wicked dealt with second.
In the gt god's pple are killed,and the wicked take the mark. You are just making it up as you go.
You re way,way off.
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popeye
Guest
No,you define it and expect others to make your grand canyon leaps.
He comes FOR HIS BRIDE pretrib.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
You leave out the next major event. You just ignore it and clump out of context verses togther,such as "1st resurrection",continually twisting things into next year because you re busted big time by the pretrib verses.
"LIKE MANNER"
You can not explain this in any stretch of your creative dot connecting.
You will PURPOSEFULLY ignore "like mmanner" because you have no room to wiggle out of it.
This is how we correctly discern the word; We obstain from a position till we have all the verses connected.
You have painted yourself in a corner,but you have such a huge investment is a mish mash quandry,you will in fact try to cram it in sideways somewhere.
"Like manner",that would be the groom gathering the bride,nothing like the postrib return with the saints in full battle gear,on thousands of horses.fire,sword out of mouth,and KILLING.
"like manner" means like manner.
Postrib rapture is a goner
If we are to live through the trib then why do we need rapture? When God destroyed all life on earth why did He put Noah in an ark? When God sent Angels to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah why Did He remove Lot and his family first? He could have given them special powers to survive, yet chose to remove them before the coming destruction. Are we to receive special powers to live through the trib?
We agree on this. Pre-Flood is not an analogy for Pre-Trib; it is an analogy for Christ's Second (and only future) Coming.
Again, it seems we agree. Many of God's people are killed during the GT. The wicked are already taking the mark and it will continue. What am I making up? Where specifically am I off?
Ah ha. Here's where you are off. This statement is bogus. Christ NEVER returns before the Trib and you can't show me one verse that says He does. If a lesson cannot be found and yet you teach it, the burden is upon you to prove it.
What pre trib verses? Show me one verse that locates a return of Christ before the tribulation. There aren't any. Therefore you are twisting. Christ returns the way He left. Fine, I agree. How did He leave? He was standing on the Mount of Olives talking to His disciples. Then He was taken up and a cloud received Him and He disappeared out of sight. When He comes back, the same "clouds of heaven" will escort him back and we see him standing on the Mount of Olives, Rev 14:1. He comes completely back down to earth. You guys add the part in about us being caught up in the clouds to meet Him then being wisked back to heaven with Him to sit out the GT.
1. You have no verse that tells you that we are gathered into the Clouds upon Christ's return (God is returning in 1 Thes 4:14, not Christ)
2. You have no verse that tells you Christ then immediately does a u-turn and takes us all alive back to heaven
3. You have no verse that locates Christ return before the GT.
The big assumption you make incorrectly is that God's Wrath is the GT. It isn't, Satan's Wrath is the GT. We (all believers) are not appointed to God's Wrath but you guys invent this concept of a left behind group of believers who are appointed to God's Wrath. This too is not scriptural.
I just explained it. In Acts 1, Christ is standing on the Mount of Olives. He is taken up. He disappears. When He returns He comes back exactly the same way. He is brought down. He stands on the Mount of Olives. There is no U-turn passage - NONE. Show me the U-turn my friend. If you can't then you are making it up!!
Huh? How so?
The Marriage is AFTER all the killing!! My goodness. How is it so impossible for some to read and pick up context?? It baffles my mind. The marriage happens in Rev 21 after all the killing.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
God isn't behind the Great Tribulation, Satan is. God has to shorten those days or Satan would kill everyone.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Satan has Great Wrath. The warning (the woes) are given to the inhabitants of the earth and sea. These "inhabitants" are Muslim. The "Sea" is the region of the Lion, Leopard, Bear (Rev 13:2). Daniel tells us that this area is ancient Persia, Babylon and Greece which we know as Iran, Iraq and Syria/Turkey.
The below is the Muslim world. This is the "earth."