sinless? or sinning less.

[skylove7]

Please also good Christians...if you feel my views are incorrect, feel free to criticize my opinion. I am kind at heart, with a loving nature toward others. I take criticism very kindly. Thank you and God Bless you all.

 

[slave]

Yes! God's salvation is different from our human concepts. His way is deliverance from sin. We think that everything would be alright if sins were uprooted from our being. But God's salvation is not the eradication of sins. He does not pull out our sins like rooted trees.
Many of us think that perfection is attained as soon as one has all sins repressed. But our person is one that loves to sin. It does not even want to suppress sin. Even when it tries grudgingly, there is no lasting result.The way of God is not a subjugation of sin, nor is it a mortification of the body. It is an exchange of person. The old man that was attached to sin is removed, and a new life that abhors sin is put in it's place. When temptation comes, the new life naturally shuns it. In this way, the body loses it's function in regard to performing sins.
God's salvation is entirely different from the concepts of other religions. God does not deal with sin, nor does He touch the body.All He takes care of is the old man within.This old man is just our life. When the old man is put to death, it means the old life is terminated, and a new life is put in place. The two ends, sin and the body, are left untouched, but the middle agent is taken away. Sin can no longer communicate with the body.
The man that is constituted with this new life is called the new man in the Bible. When temptation comes again, the new man reacts very differently from the old one. He no longer hearkens to those lures. He never seconds the motion of sin, and He never actuates the body to commit evil. The new man is diametrically opposed to sin. He is deaf to the suggestions of sin.
There is no other way for God to take but to pronounce death for this life. It's last breath has to be taken from it. It must be utterly terminated. When this happens sin will lose it's partner forever.
This victory over sin is absolute and begins the second we confess our sins and ask God to live in our hearts thru the Holy Spirit. Yet It is a process. Do mature christians make mistakes and sin along the way? sure it probably will happen. Does it have to? NO! but it most probably will. And God's grace covers this in His blood. But God wants us to finish His work in us. eventually, then, can we become sinless? ABSOLUTELY YES! For God Has called us to be more than conquerers thru being in His perfection- A NEW MAN! It is not us. But God who has made us able to be free from sin. Our job is not to earn anything....Simply apply ourselves to staying seated in things already accomplished in Christ!

 

[Deluge]

What are your thoughts on sinless perfection? Can a person become sinless in this life?

I'm going to approach this from a bit of a different perspective then has been done so far on this thread.

First of all, we have to be clear on what the question is. I think the question "Can a person become sinless in this life?" is more properly the question "Is it possible to never sin from today going forward?" In morally philosophy there is a statement by Immanuel Kant that goes "Ought implies can". This means that if we ought to do something, then it is necessary that we are able to do it. For example, if someone jumps off a building to take their own life, you would never turn to an observer and say "Why didn't you fly up and catch him?" because that's obviously not something that he can do. If however the suicidal man had told his cab driver his plans, you might ask the cab driver "Why didn't you try to stop him?" because that was in his power. And because we always have the ability to do the right thing or the wrong thing, it is therefore always possible to do the right thing. This means that it is possible to never sin. But just because something is possible, this does not necessarily mean that it will happen.

You have the ability (by definition) to resist every temptation, and you have a moral responsibility to do so. Whether or not anyone actually manages to do so is entirely irrelevant. If it were not possible for us to be perfect, then we could not be blamed for our imperfection. It is because we have the ability to be perfect, but we choose not to, that we are held accountable for our sin.

 

[michael56]

What are your thoughts on sinless perfection? Can a person become sinless in this life?

As I heard a minister state:

''If we followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never sin, the reality of which escapes us all.''

 

[skylove7]

I find it quite humorous at times that a so called 'genius' can spend years of time, breaking an over dramatic sweat trying to prove to people God is not true.
bahaha......
Give a Christian one second...feeling the love and power of God, in light of the Holy Spirit!
That's all the proof we need that God...yes is real!

 

[gotime]

Often the issue here is that the focus is not on the right person. If the question is can we be sinless then the answer is a resounding no.

But if the Question is can Jesus keep us from sinning then the answer is Yes.

The focus needs to be on Jesus then the impossible becomes possible.

 

[maxwel]

Often the issue here is that the focus is not on the right person. If the question is can we be sinless then the answer is a resounding no.

But if the Question is can Jesus keep us from sinning then the answer is Yes.

The focus needs to be on Jesus then the impossible becomes possible.

The problem with this whole discussion is that people take some good scriptures, and some good ideas, and simply don't carry those ideas quite far enough in the right direction.

Does Jesus Keep us from Sinning?

1. COULD Jesus keep us from sinning?
2. Certainly
3. But DOES he keep us from sinning? Does he override our own will?
4. No.
6. He doesn't go against our will; he doesn't turn us into robots, forcing us to do good when we desire sin.


What is God's Nature? Is there anything he CANNOT do?

We often state flippantly, "God can do anything".
But this is not true.
There are many things God cannot do.
- God cannot lie.
- God cannot contradict himself.
- God cannot go against his own word
- God cannot go against his own nature.
God cannot go against his word, and his nature, and FORCE us to do good, WHEN WE DESIRE TO SIN.

Was the Greatest Christian Sinless?

1. Paul wrote most of the New Testament Epistles.
2. Paul preached across the known world, planted churches, suffered for Christ, and eventually died a martyr.
3. Paul is arguably as great a Christian as the world has ever known... possibly the greatest.
4. Did Paul EVER claim to have reached a state of "sinlessness"?
5. No. He said just the opposite.

Paul's Own Words
Rom 7:14-15
"... but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."

Even Paul, possibly the greatest Christian who ever lived, did not experience, or CLAIM, a sinless life.
He describes a spiritual struggle within himself... a compulsion to do wrong, which was always with him, which he always struggled against.

If you think you can live a sinlessly perfect life... are you greater than Paul?

 

[maxwel]

Note To Calvinists.

Please refrain from taking my statements above, regarding man's will, and dissecting them here.

I am not discussing the matter of "free will" at the moment of salvation.
I am talking about man having "a will", which still has a daily struggle with the spirit AFTER SALVATION,
as described by the Apostle Paul.

I am also not debating the issue of "Perseverance of the Saints"... which as we know has nothing to do with a sinless daily walk. It relies not on our daily walk, but rather on the promises of God, and being taken to Heaven DESPITE our willfulness.

I just want to stay focused on the topic here.
Thank you.

 

[gotime]

The problem with this whole discussion is that people take some good scriptures, and some good ideas, and simply don't carry those ideas quite far enough in the right direction.

Does Jesus Keep us from Sinning?

1. COULD Jesus keep us from sinning?
2. Certainly
3. But DOES he keep us from sinning? Does he override our own will?
4. No.
6. He doesn't go against our will; he doesn't turn us into robots, forcing us to do good when we desire sin.


What is God's Nature? Is there anything he CANNOT do?

We often state flippantly, "God can do anything".
But this is not true.
There are many things God cannot do.
- God cannot lie.
- God cannot contradict himself.
- God cannot go against his own word
- God cannot go against his own nature.
God cannot go against his word, and his nature, and FORCE us to do good, WHEN WE DESIRE TO SIN.

Was the Greatest Christian Sinless?

1. Paul wrote most of the New Testament Epistles.
2. Paul preached across the known world, planted churches, suffered for Christ, and eventually died a martyr.
3. Paul is arguably as great a Christian as the world has ever known... possibly the greatest.
4. Did Paul EVER claim to have reached a state of "sinlessness"?
5. No. He said just the opposite.

Paul's Own Words
Rom 7:14-15
"... but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."

Even Paul, possibly the greatest Christian who ever lived, did not experience, or CLAIM, a sinless life.
He describes a spiritual struggle within himself... a compulsion to do wrong, which was always with him, which he always struggled against.

If you think you can live a sinlessly perfect life... are you greater than Paul?

Do you will to sin?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If a person wills to not sin then God can work with that will and preform it. Its not force if you surrender to His working in you. So that gets rid of your first two problems.

your last one is a missus of Paul's writings. you may be sold under sin but I am not I have been redeemed by Grace and no longer under condemnation of the law through Christ.

 

[maxwel]

Do you will to sin?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If a person wills to not sin then God can work with that will and preform it. Its not force if you surrender to His working in you. So that gets rid of your first two problems.

your last one is a missus of Paul's writings. you may be sold under sin but I am not I have been redeemed by Grace and no longer under condemnation of the law through Christ.

I said nothing about MY state at all.

PAUL said HE was sold under sin.

So... if you think you are sinless... you need to go take it up with Paul.
Because Paul said the opposite.


Also... there is just NO WAY to be misusing, or misunderstanding these verses by Paul.
They are EXTREMELY CLEAR.
He goes on for VERSE AFTER VERSE saying the same thing over and over.
It couldn't be more clear.

 

[gotime]

I said nothing about MY state at all.

PAUL said HE was sold under sin.

So... if you think you are sinless... you need to go take it up with Paul.
Because Paul said the opposite.


Also... there is just NO WAY to be misusing, or misunderstanding these verses by Paul.
They are EXTREMELY CLEAR.
He goes on for VERSE AFTER VERSE saying the same thing over and over.
It couldn't be more clear.

No offence but I think you do clearly misunderstand those verses.

So you think Paul at the time he wrote that was actually a slave to sin, the same Paul who wrote in the chapter before that we are no longer slaves to sin?

 

[maxwel]

Furthermore... do you actually expect any of us to believe that YOU live in a state of sinless perfection?

Seriously?

You have perfect communion, every second, of every minute, of every hour, every day...
you never have any doubts,
you never have an unkind thought.

You live in complete sinless perfection??

 

[gotime]

Furthermore... do you actually expect any of us to believe that YOU live in a state of sinless perfection?

Seriously?

You have perfect communion, every second, of every minute, of every hour, every day...
you never have any doubts,
you never have an unkind thought.

You live in complete sinless perfection??

What you believe of me has no baring on the truth.

 

[maxwel]

What you believe of me has no baring on the truth.

1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I think that verse speaks for itself... regarding your sinless perfection.

 

[VioletReigns]

1 John chapter 2 clears that up.

Verse 1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: Verse 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Verse 12: I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

We are decreasing and Jesus is increasing in us as we are changed by the Holy Spirit from glory to glory, more and more into the image of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, we still sin, or err from what is right. And yet there's no condemnation because our sins are covered by the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

We are here and now spiritually holy and perfect in God's sight because of the Blood of Jesus Christ, but our flesh still seeks to have its own way and we err/sin on this earth. The Good News is that Jesus Christ through His Holy Spirit dwelling in us is perfecting us Himself, He is guiding and teaching us and completing what He started in us.

 

[gotime]

1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I think that verse speaks for itself... regarding your sinless perfection.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[oopsies]

God cannot go against his word, and his nature, and FORCE us to do good, WHEN WE DESIRE TO SIN.

I didn't read everything you wrote in great detail but I did notice this one sentence that seemed strange. Did you by any chance mean to say that he does not force us to sin? (The reason I thought this was because of Genesis 6:5 and 2 Timothy 2:25.)

 

[gotime]

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Notice the words "we" and "our" when does the reader come into this?

1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Notice again "we" have seen it. manifested unto "us" but the reader it says. shew unto "you" that eternal life. seems John is speaking to people who do not yet know of this eternal life. lets keep going:

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.





Notice here that again "we" have seen and heard and "we" are delcarling/telling "you" why?

So that "ye" the reader may have fellowship with "us" the writers who have seen. So the "you" and "ye" have need of hearing and are yet to be in fellowship with them. and "our" the writer has fellowship with the Father and the son meaning the "you" and "ye" have not fellowship with the Father and Jesus and have not heard or seen or touched.

1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

The purpose of "we" writing to you is so that "you" and "your" joy may be full as it is not yet so cause you have not fellowship with the father an Jesus. Which means John is clearly writing to people who have not yet heard or understood the Gospel and thus have yet to repent and be forgiven.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now they declare the message that they need to hear in order to Have fellowship with the Father and Son. part of that message is forgiveness but it can not be given to those who do not see their sin cause then they will not confess and not be forgiven.

The context is most clearly writing to those who are unconverted. not to converted people at this stage. and what is the purpose of John saying this?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not...

John is writing this to them so that they stop sinning. which means we start keeping Gods commandments namely conversion.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[michael56]

Even the Pharisees of Jesus day did not profess to be sinless. When Jesus said

''Let him who is without sin cast the first stone'' they all walked away

 

[haz]

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Notice the words "we" and "our" when does the reader come into this?

1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Notice again "we" have seen it. manifested unto "us" but the reader it says. shew unto "you" that eternal life. seems John is speaking to people who do not yet know of this eternal life. lets keep going:

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


Notice here that again "we" have seen and heard and "we" are delcarling/telling "you" why?

So that "ye" the reader may have fellowship with "us" the writers who have seen. So the "you" and "ye" have need of hearing and are yet to be in fellowship with them. and "our" the writer has fellowship with the Father and the son meaning the "you" and "ye" have not fellowship with the Father and Jesus and have not heard or seen or touched.

1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

The purpose of "we" writing to you is so that "you" and "your" joy may be full as it is not yet so cause you have not fellowship with the father an Jesus. Which means John is clearly writing to people who have not yet heard or understood the Gospel and thus have yet to repent and be forgiven.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now they declare the message that they need to hear in order to Have fellowship with the Father and Son. part of that message is forgiveness but it can not be given to those who do not see their sin cause then they will not confess and not be forgiven.

The context is most clearly writing to those who are unconverted. not to converted people at this stage. and what is the purpose of John saying this?

I'm glad to say that I share the same understanding to what you have written above.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not...

John is writing this to them so that they stop sinning. which means we start keeping Gods commandments namely conversion.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This is where we diverge in understanding.

For you it's all about works of the law.

But I see in scripture that the commandments that Christians keep is to believe on Jesus, and to love one another, 1John 3:23.

Legalists say they know him but they refuse to keep his 2 commandments, thus they're a liar and the truth is not in them.

How do legalists reject Christ's 2 commandments (believe on Jesus and love one another, 1John 3:23)?
Scripture tells us that we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.
Gal 5:4 confirms this by saying that those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace.
And remember also that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.

Legalists preach righteousness by works of the law, which is unbelief in Jesus.
Even you, gotime, claim that most here on CC are in "unbelief" unless we keep the law perfectly.

So when I hear you guys say no we can never keep the law I hear Christ is not sufficient. The cross is not enough.

It seems to me that you think your flesh nature is stronger than the cross,

Many sin because of unbelief.