How do you guys do this?

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, I was looking for how the churches (those here) judge matters in their churches (if there was any wise among them).

We are not to judge one another before the Lord returns as Paul said previously in 1 Corinthians 4:5.
So what Paul is saying here is not to judge fellow brothers and sisters in the faith, but if they are walking improperly in the faith (impure sinful lifestyle) then we are to handle them as the Lord said.

We are to pull them aside and speak to them one on one on what they are doing wrong. (Matthew 18:15-17) Then if they do not listen we are to bring them before a couple others in the church, and if they still do not listen then we are to bring them before the whole congregation to help them see there wrongful ways to help them change. If they still do not listen then Paul goes further and says to oust them from the church....(1 Corinthians 5)

You see then we must take chapters 4,5, and 6 together because they all deal with the issue of judging, and never are we to actually judge the person but to help them and if they refuse that help then they are to be ousted from the church. Handed over to satan (sinful world) to hopefully bring the person to their senses and repent of their ways........

 

[JesusistheChrist]

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1 Corinthians 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

The shame was brethren taking offenses through civil courts. Paul asked them why they couldn't find some other brethren in the church who could help settle matters.

It's along the lines of Matthew 18:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

That's quite straightforward. The churches I've known handle the tell it unto the church by taking a matter to some deacons on the church board, maybe put on the agenda for a full board meeting, maybe just involving local pastors, which hopefully settles a matter without involving the whole congregation.

On a somewhat related matter, I was actually meditating upon this portion of scripture from Matthew on my way to work yesterday morning. It seems to me that Jesus didn't think too highly of "publicans"...unless they repented, of course. Anyhow, this portion of scripture usually pops into my head around tax season every year, so don't mind me.

 

[Willie-T]

Have you guys noticed how comfortably and naturally we have taken this from, "settling disputes", to "judging?" That should be worthy of wondering about.

 

[Jeff_56]

there's 3 or more types/ kinds of 'judging', in the original WORD, and in english it is not understood in any english translation that i'm aware of (except maybe one like wuests expanded, or a similar that translates the meaning and not word for word or somesuch....) ..

even so, the right-ruling/ understanding is gone from the chruches.... few exceptions. even the cell groups/ home fellowships in the luxurious world don't get it but rarely if ever.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Have you guys noticed how comfortably and naturally we have taken this from, "settling disputes", to "judging?" That should be worthy of wondering about.

The context is that the saints will judge the world. Anyhow, I think that the point that kennethcadwell was trying to make is that we don't seek to pronounce any sort of FINAL JUDGMENT upon anyone, but rather we judge as to whether or not something is acceptable before the Lord that people might ultimately get right with God and be saved. IOW, we seek to help them and not to condemn them.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Churches in general do not judge, but they may exclude members for gross sin. A dispute is not gross sin, it is just a problem, so most would just ignore it, and one or other of the parties would probably leave the church.

Jesus was speaking of tresspasses in the church order of things though

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Which I am wondering whether 1 Cr and 2 Cr are in accord with this

Because at first Paul writes

1 Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

And this is how the wise were handling the situation

1 Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Has much changed? Paul eventually says,

1 Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1 Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Almost similarly as Jesus said

In letting him be unto theeas an heathen man and a publican. (on the outsider now)

Whereas by his next letter Paul was saying

2 Cr 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.

So this punishment was inflicted by the many of them (they put him out from themselves) shunned him according to both Pauls and Jesus instruction since they were not exercising wisdom in what they should have been greived in (concerning this mans fornication).

2 Cr 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

What I love about that verse is that Paul is concerned that this mans greif would actually swallow the man up (even as he was made sorry) but its just how Paul expresses his concern for the man who had sinned in this manner.

2 Cr 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

2 Cr 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

 

[Willie-T]

The context is that the saints will judge the world. Anyhow, I think that the point that kennethcadwell was trying to make is that we don't seek to pronounce any sort of FINAL JUDGMENT upon anyone, but rather we judge as to whether or not something is acceptable before the Lord that people might ultimately get right with God and be saved. IOW, we seek to help them and not to condemn them.

Do we really? I wonder.

I used to attend a CoC that ostracized a young man for an indiscretion with a girl. No one (including me) really cared enough about him to come alongside him (paraklete) and help him in any way. He soon sailed his little boat off into the midst of a hurricane, and no one ever heard of him again.

We talk a good game, but not that many of us seem to try to really do much more than sit on the bench, accusing.

 

[DesiredHaven]

We are not to judge one another before the Lord returns as Paul said previously in 1 Corinthians 4:5.
So what Paul is saying here is not to judge fellow brothers and sisters in the faith, but if they are walking improperly in the faith (impure sinful lifestyle) then we are to handle them as the Lord said.

We are to pull them aside and speak to them one on one on what they are doing wrong. (Matthew 18:15-17) Then if they do not listen we are to bring them before a couple others in the church, and if they still do not listen then we are to bring them before the whole congregation to help them see there wrongful ways to help them change. If they still do not listen then Paul goes further and says to oust them from the church....(1 Corinthians 5)

You see then we must take chapters 4,5, and 6 together because they all deal with the issue of judging, and never are we to actually judge the person but to help them and if they refuse that help then they are to be ousted from the church. Handed over to satan (sinful world) to hopefully bring the person to their senses and repent of their ways........

Judging matters BETWEEN brethren isnt judging brethern though, you think?

And neglecting to do what Jesus (whose judgment is just) had instructed them to would be as Paul taking the bull by the horns and who was rightly judging them as incompetent to judge anything (having to take charge of the situation) because they arent even mourning over sin but all proud of it. So he takes it to himself judged the situation (their lack of judgment) and the man who did this thing in the church and told them to put him out.

Or as Jesus said, let him be you as a heathen or a publican (outside the church)

So the punishment was inflicted by the many (of them)

But I think there Paul is making all of them an example

 

[DesiredHaven]

Do we really? I wonder.

I used to attend a CoC that ostracized a young man for an indiscretion with a girl. No one (including me) really cared enough about him to come alongside him (paraklete) and help him in any way. He soon sailed his little boat off into the midst of a hurricane, and no one ever heard of him again.

We talk a good game, but not that many of us seem to try to really do much more than sit on the bench, accusing.

One bad example doesnt make for the whole "we" thing either.

I was one living in fornication earlier when I come to Christ, and I was pulled aside in private by a pastor who told me that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom of God, and man I fled that immediately, so thank God for him.

I asked my boyfreind to marry me that same week and we have been married for 25 years now.

So to avoid fornication I married my now husband (I had no self control yet) lol

 

[kennethcadwell]

Judging matters BETWEEN brethren isnt judging brethern though, you think?

And neglecting to do what Jesus (whose judgment is just) had instructed them to would be as Paul taking the bull by the horns and who was rightly judging them as incompetent to judge anything (having to take charge of the situation) because they arent even mourning over sin but all proud of it. So he takes it to himself judged the situation (their lack of judgment) and the man who did this thing in the church and told them to put him out.

Or as Jesus said, let him be you as a heathen or a publican (outside the church)

So the punishment was inflicted by the many (of them)

But I think there Paul is making all of them an example

The thing is that people have a misconception of what it means to judge, as they take and believe when one points out anothers fault to them they are being judgmental. This is not the biblical form of judgment, as the bible states when calling others out we are to use His word to point it out to them, then correct them with the word, and then edify them with the word.
If a person just calls a person out and uses unedifying and condemning language toward the person for doing wrong, then they are being judgmental. Nowhere does it tell us in His word to condemn and uses profane or unedifying language toward another.
We have laws of the land as well and if they do not contradict God's then if a person goes so far to break the laws of the land as well then they are to be handed over to the authorities to face the punishment of the law of land. This being said we are to handle the matters in church before a member gets that far, and if that person does not change then they are to be handed over and let them continue to faulter. Paul is the one who gave the command to oust the person who is walking improperly, because by letting them continue to do those things in front of others will lead others to believe walking improperly is acceptable. Look at how some churches today allow people to continue to walk impure lifestyles, which is completely against the teaching of the bible.......

 

[DesiredHaven]

The thing is that people have a misconception of what it means to judge, as they take and believe when one points out anothers fault to them they are being judgmental. This is not the biblical form of judgment, as the bible states when calling others out we are to use His word to point it out to them, then correct them with the word, and then edify them with the word.
If a person just calls a person out and uses unedifying and condemning language toward the person for doing wrong, then they are being judgmental. Nowhere does it tell us in His word to condemn and uses profane or unedifying language toward another.
We have laws of the land as well and if they do not contradict God's then if a person goes so far to break the laws of the land as well then they are to be handed over to the authorities to face the punishment of the law of land. This being said we are to handle the matters in church before a member gets that far, and if that person does not change then they are to be handed over and let them continue to faulter. Paul is the one who gave the command to oust the person who is walking improperly, because by letting them continue to do those things in front of others will lead others to believe walking improperly is acceptable. Look at how some churches today allow people to continue to walk impure lifestyles, which is completely against the teaching of the bible.......

I really agree with this, good post Kenneth

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Do we really? I wonder.

I used to attend a CoC that ostracized a young man for an indiscretion with a girl. No one (including me) really cared enough about him to come alongside him (paraklete) and help him in any way. He soon sailed his little boat off into the midst of a hurricane, and no one ever heard of him again.

We talk a good game, but not that many of us seem to try to really do much more than sit on the bench, accusing.

I hear you and I've seen much of the same, but the failure on the part of some (even if that "some" includes us) to do what is right doesn't negate what is right in and of itself and it is right for Christians to "judge" in the manner in which I described.

 

[Least]

I believe they tried we Jesus though, for example here

John 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Mark 14:55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
Mark 14:56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.

Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

I need to do an indepth study for myself on these different laws, locating exactly where they are in the bible, but I found these on a website that goes into some general laws that were broken during and even before His trial. Before I can say that all of these are accurate, I have to search it out (time permitting) hopefully today.

What legal trials of Jesus led to His crucifixion?

many laws were broken in the process of the trial according to Jewish legal regulations: 1) No trial was to be held during the Passover week, 2) each member was to vote individually (the Jews voted as a group), 3) the Jews had no authority to execute a person, yet Pilate consented based on their recommendation, 4) trials were not to be held at night, yet Jesus was arrested and tried at night, 5) and a representative was to be given, though Jesus had no one to represent Him.

​

 

[DesiredHaven]

Mark 14:55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
Mark 14:56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.

Matthew 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

I need to do an indepth study for myself on these different laws, locating exactly where they are in the bible, but I found these on a website that goes into some general laws that were broken during and even before His trial. Before I can say that all of these are accurate, I have to search it out (time permitting) hopefully today.

What legal trials of Jesus led to His crucifixion?

​

Jesus was given as a witness (Isaiah 55:4, and Rev 1:5) they just couldnt tell anything, as he said he was not alone but his Father was with Him (as two witnesses, its just one was seen and the other was not not) at least not to them... John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. John would send his disciples by two's to ask the Lord something (like he did unto Jesus by two of them from the prison)like in Mat 11:2 but Jesus likewise sent his disciples out by two's (Luke 10:1).

 

[Willie-T]

I hear you and I've seen much of the same, but the failure on the part of some (even if that "some" includes us) to do what is right doesn't negate what is right in and of itself and it is right for Christians to "judge" in the manner in which I described.

I agree. As long as we understand (and respond to) our obligation in Christ, not to just let them flounder, but physically go to them, and help them recover in love... Christ's, AND ours.

 

[DesiredHaven]

I agree. As long as we understand (and respond to) our obligation in Christ, not to just let them flounder, but physically go to them, and help them recover in love... Christ's, AND ours.

Love is also shown in open rebuke where its called hidden love when that seems with held

Rev 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Prov 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Like this one, this also is open as well.

1 Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

And then I fell on this one, how is this interpreted here?

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Then there are scorners who could hate you for reproof where a wise man will love you

Prov 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

I love this stuff.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Love is also shown in open rebuke where its called hidden love when that seems with held

Rev 3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Prov 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Like this one, this also is open as well.

1 Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

And then I fell on this one, how is this interpreted here?

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Then there are scorners who could hate you for reproof where a wise man will love you

Prov 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

I love this stuff.

The Leviticus passage is even more telling in its fuller context:

Leviticus chapter 19

[15] Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[16] Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[17] Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[18] Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

IOW, "rebuking your neighbor and not suffering sin upon him" is part of "loving your neighbor as yourself".

 

[DesiredHaven]

The Leviticus passage is even more telling in its fuller context:

Leviticus chapter 19

[15] Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[16] Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[17] Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[18] Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

IOW, "rebuking your neighbor and not suffering sin upon him" is part of "loving your neighbor as yourself".

I agree I will snag single verses when I believe they might say what the more might.

But I do have to begin using that bible website you gave me so I dont have to copy paste each verse in its context one at a time.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I agree I will snag single verses when I believe they might say what the more might.

But I do have to begin using that bible website you gave me so I dont have to copy paste each verse in its context one at a time.

There was nothing wrong with citing the single verse. You know that I'm regularly engaging people in conversations here and elsewhere about how the Old Testament commandment of "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" has carried over into the New Testament/Covenant, so I was merely seeking to show that "rebuking thy neighbor and not suffering sin upon him" is very much a part of that and there are certainly examples of the same in the New Testament/Covenant and some of them have already been cited here on this thread. Basically, I'm just combatting, as I always am, this warped or at least limited view of "love" that many professing Christians have. God is love and his Word is full of rebuke and correction, but many here and elsewhere regularly balk at the same and get angry when such verses are even cited, so I merely used your post as a springboard for what I wanted to add.

 

[DesiredHaven]

There was nothing wrong with citing the single verse. You know that I'm regularly engaging people in conversations here and elsewhere about how the Old Testament commandment of "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" has carried over into the New Testament/Covenant, so I was merely seeking to show that "rebuking thy neighbor and not suffering sin upon him" is very much a part of that and there are certainly examples of the same in the New Testament/Covenant and some of them have already been cited here on this thread. Basically, I'm just combatting, as I always am, this warped or at least limited view of "love" that many professing Christians have. God is love and his Word is full of rebuke and correction, but many here and elsewhere regularly balk at the same and get angry when such verses are even cited, so I merely used your post as a springboard for what I wanted to add.

I knew you would agree with it, and I have no problems with seeing the same there and I also agree with the larger context as you pointed out, you did good to expand that, I was just not as thorough.

Springboard anytime, I still have to get started using that site because you can snag more verses at one time then I can LOL