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G
What is obvious here is that the NASB rendering is "totally out of context" --- the "sense and tense" of it does not match the "flow" of what Paul is saying in the passage.
( Not to mention - the "grammar of the language" shows us plainly that verse 4 is a statement, and not a question. )
BTW - "I So if"...???
Yes there is -- only PRIDE cannot see it...
No.
No.
( Not to mention - the "grammar of the language" shows us plainly that verse 4 is a statement, and not a question. )
BTW - "I So if"...???
Yes there is -- only PRIDE cannot see it...
No.
No.
Most larger churches have some form of the above in place. Really small churches where everyone knows the other can handle matters between families. The larger the church, the more gossip potential, people taking every bit of "news" directly to all in the church willing to listen to gossip. That somewhat short-circuits the Mat 18 process, producing more shame than ought to be. I figure that's why God hates "tale bearing" so much he listed that in the "top 7 sin" list in Proverbs 6:12-19 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
My wife and I have been increasingly involved in problems in the areas of failing marriages, dealing with issues of divorce, one or the other or both with children and overcome in drug/alcohol abuse. It takes a lot of time and effort to council, doing all possible to keep such things out of the courts. A way of working that out is to "re-train" mothers and fathers through involvement of church elders interceding against marital disasters. We've supported marraige ministries locally, not just donating, but getting involved personally. We've learned most couples have never really had good parental training, and have no idea what marriage is really intended to be. Our emphasis has slowly switched to prevention, helping ministries that target young people before marriage.
The idea of all of that is for the Church to find ways to reassign Christians to go back to the basics, the "first things", whether they have been disciplined in those or not. It's not very fruitful for a church to engage in "judgment" right off until having done all to bring embattled parties to knowledge of God in all matters.
I suppose the most valuable lesson for people disputing against each other is to grow in patience, giving time to gain knowledge, virtue, love. Sometimes matters are just too far advanced for anyone to be of help, requiring a court and judge.
It's interesting that many of our civil judges are avoiding ultimate decrees, requiring married couples to go through marital/parenting training. Often the people our churches deal with are "court appointed", while particular Christian ministries, that perhaps specialize in drug addiction, are assigned others we don't see until those ministries refer (graduate) them. From there each spouse is paired up with a mentor, and encouraged to develop in Church activity.
A recent trend has been elders married 50 years or more showing up in the newspaper divorce column, a shock to all churches suffering that problem. I haven't seen much success with that problem. Not many of us still ministering have lived long enough to empathize with them. There are lots of problems that don't make sense, perplexing the courts too.
The idea of all of that is for the Church to find ways to reassign Christians to go back to the basics, the "first things", whether they have been disciplined in those or not. It's not very fruitful for a church to engage in "judgment" right off until having done all to bring embattled parties to knowledge of God in all matters.
I suppose the most valuable lesson for people disputing against each other is to grow in patience, giving time to gain knowledge, virtue, love. Sometimes matters are just too far advanced for anyone to be of help, requiring a court and judge.
It's interesting that many of our civil judges are avoiding ultimate decrees, requiring married couples to go through marital/parenting training. Often the people our churches deal with are "court appointed", while particular Christian ministries, that perhaps specialize in drug addiction, are assigned others we don't see until those ministries refer (graduate) them. From there each spouse is paired up with a mentor, and encouraged to develop in Church activity.
A recent trend has been elders married 50 years or more showing up in the newspaper divorce column, a shock to all churches suffering that problem. I haven't seen much success with that problem. Not many of us still ministering have lived long enough to empathize with them. There are lots of problems that don't make sense, perplexing the courts too.
Local churches went through a decades-long trend of encouraging church members to give as much business to Christian businessmen as possible. That's back-fired some, for instance a church brother who builds homes being challenged by church member customers with tough design/construction/materials problems neither can afford to fix. That sort of problem isn't well suited to a church to attend to, those things falling into the category of 1 Corinthians 6:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
Mercy goes a long way for giver and receiver. The only way I can approach that is to get both parties to restart, asking each other "What can be done now?" A leaky roof might require immediate solution, but cracks in a ceiling can wait until a better opportunity for both parties. So it's wisdom to me for brethren to calm disputes as much as possible. Several of the churches I'm close to have men's ministries, full of retired men (and working men) that take time to join together to fix problems that homeowners can't afford.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
Mercy goes a long way for giver and receiver. The only way I can approach that is to get both parties to restart, asking each other "What can be done now?" A leaky roof might require immediate solution, but cracks in a ceiling can wait until a better opportunity for both parties. So it's wisdom to me for brethren to calm disputes as much as possible. Several of the churches I'm close to have men's ministries, full of retired men (and working men) that take time to join together to fix problems that homeowners can't afford.
V
What is obvious here is that the NASB rendering is "totally out of context" --- the "sense and tense" of it does not match the "flow" of what Paul is saying in the passage. ... ( Not to mention - the "grammar of the language" shows us plainly that verse 4 is a statement, and not a question. ) ... BTW - "I So if"...??? ... Yes there is -- only PRIDE cannot see it... No. ... No. ...
J
There IS such a principle and that's the whole point. The context of Paul's comments is that "THE SAINTS" and not just the pastors/elders/deacons/etc. "shall judge the world" (I Corinthians 6:2). IOW, there's not supposed to be a chasm of sorts which separates one from the other. Please notice to whom this epistle was addressed:
I Corinthians chapter 1
[1] Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[2] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
[3] Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
This wasn't one of Paul's "pastoral epistles", but rather an epistle which was addressed to ALL OF THE SAINTS at Corinth. In fact, Paul spent considerable time in the opening portion of this epistle REPROVING the saints for being "carnal" or for thinking too highly of the likes of himself, Cephas/Peter and Apollos. Furthermore, there are none more qualified to judge than those who truly are "less esteemed" in their own eyes as opposed to THE PROUD. Paul's instructions to the church at Philippi were the following:
Philippians chapter 2
[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
The saints are called to "esteem others better than themselves", so how do you know that Paul wasn't addressing the same here? When it came to the matter of the man who was committing fornication with his father's wife, Paul's instructions were to THE ENTIRE CHURCH BODY and NOT to merely "the clergy". Isn't this so? It most certainly is so. Furthermore, a little bit later on in this very same epistle, this same Paul had the following to say:
I Corinthians chapter 12
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[14] For the body is not one member, but many.
[15] If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[16] And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[19] And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[21] And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
[22] Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
[23] And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
[24] For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
[25] That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
[26] And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Why did Paul address how one part of the body cannot say to another part of the body, "I have no need of you"?
Why did Paul address how we need to "bestow more abundant honor to our uncomely parts" and that God "has given more abundant honor to that part which lacks"?
It seems to me that Paul addressed such matters because the Corinthians were guilty of "esteeming" OTHERS "less" than THEMSELVES, as opposed to the other way around, WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST and therefore hindering them from God's call upon their lives. Paul's understanding of "the gifts" which Christ has given to men is the following:
Ephesians chapter 4
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
When Christ ascended, He "gave gifts unto men" and/or "grace according to the gift of Christ UNTO EVERY ONE OF US". Yes, the purpose of "the fivefold ministry" is to bring EVERY SAINT "unto a perfect (or mature) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". Yes, "every joint" or "every part" of this overall "body" of Christ is to be "supplying" something and NOT just "the clergy". Is this what we see today? Hardly. In many (most?) cases, "the clergy" lords over the laity as opposed to being "the servants of all" as Jesus instructed.
You asked me:
Friend, the very man whose words we're now considering, the Apostle Paul himself, considered himself to be the "least esteemed":
"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" (Ephesians 3:8)
There's your answer.
I Corinthians chapter 1
[1] Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
[2] Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
[3] Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
This wasn't one of Paul's "pastoral epistles", but rather an epistle which was addressed to ALL OF THE SAINTS at Corinth. In fact, Paul spent considerable time in the opening portion of this epistle REPROVING the saints for being "carnal" or for thinking too highly of the likes of himself, Cephas/Peter and Apollos. Furthermore, there are none more qualified to judge than those who truly are "less esteemed" in their own eyes as opposed to THE PROUD. Paul's instructions to the church at Philippi were the following:
Philippians chapter 2
[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
[2] Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
[3] Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
[4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
The saints are called to "esteem others better than themselves", so how do you know that Paul wasn't addressing the same here? When it came to the matter of the man who was committing fornication with his father's wife, Paul's instructions were to THE ENTIRE CHURCH BODY and NOT to merely "the clergy". Isn't this so? It most certainly is so. Furthermore, a little bit later on in this very same epistle, this same Paul had the following to say:
I Corinthians chapter 12
[12] For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[13] For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[14] For the body is not one member, but many.
[15] If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[16] And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
[17] If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
[18] But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
[19] And if they were all one member, where were the body?
[20] But now are they many members, yet but one body.
[21] And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
[22] Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
[23] And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
[24] For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
[25] That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
[26] And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
Why did Paul address how one part of the body cannot say to another part of the body, "I have no need of you"?
Why did Paul address how we need to "bestow more abundant honor to our uncomely parts" and that God "has given more abundant honor to that part which lacks"?
It seems to me that Paul addressed such matters because the Corinthians were guilty of "esteeming" OTHERS "less" than THEMSELVES, as opposed to the other way around, WITHIN THE BODY OF CHRIST and therefore hindering them from God's call upon their lives. Paul's understanding of "the gifts" which Christ has given to men is the following:
Ephesians chapter 4
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
When Christ ascended, He "gave gifts unto men" and/or "grace according to the gift of Christ UNTO EVERY ONE OF US". Yes, the purpose of "the fivefold ministry" is to bring EVERY SAINT "unto a perfect (or mature) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ". Yes, "every joint" or "every part" of this overall "body" of Christ is to be "supplying" something and NOT just "the clergy". Is this what we see today? Hardly. In many (most?) cases, "the clergy" lords over the laity as opposed to being "the servants of all" as Jesus instructed.
You asked me:
Friend, the very man whose words we're now considering, the Apostle Paul himself, considered himself to be the "least esteemed":
"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;" (Ephesians 3:8)
There's your answer.
Last edited:
J
What is obvious here is that the NASB rendering is "totally out of context" --- the "sense and tense" of it does not match the "flow" of what Paul is saying in the passage.
( Not to mention - the "grammar of the language" shows us plainly that verse 4 is a statement, and not a question. )
BTW - "I So if"...???
Yes there is -- only PRIDE cannot see it...
No.
No.
( Not to mention - the "grammar of the language" shows us plainly that verse 4 is a statement, and not a question. )
BTW - "I So if"...???
Yes there is -- only PRIDE cannot see it...
No.
No.
L
What you have to understand is -- what was the "norm" in the 1st century - every member of a church being "full of the Holy Ghost" and the Lord Jesus Christ ( not saying that every member was - just that it was the "norm" - i.e., most were ) - is not the "norm" today ( not even close ).
If you were to ask the "most esteemed in the church" today, the question:
"Would you be willing to submit yourself to the judgment ( decision ) of the "least esteemed in the church" ( to solve a conflict )?
- the answer would very likely be:
"No way!"
UNLESS -- ALL of those in that church were considered to be "full of the Holy Ghost" and the Lord Jesus Christ - because they were ALL properly discipled and taught - and known to be [ spiritually ] mature enough to do so -- and "could be trusted" to "handle" the conflict resolution with wisdom...
-- which is virtually - if not actually - nonexistant today.
If you were to ask the "most esteemed in the church" today, the question:
"Would you be willing to submit yourself to the judgment ( decision ) of the "least esteemed in the church" ( to solve a conflict )?
- the answer would very likely be:
"No way!"
UNLESS -- ALL of those in that church were considered to be "full of the Holy Ghost" and the Lord Jesus Christ - because they were ALL properly discipled and taught - and known to be [ spiritually ] mature enough to do so -- and "could be trusted" to "handle" the conflict resolution with wisdom...
-- which is virtually - if not actually - nonexistant today.
Exodus 18:15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
Judges 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
Judges 3:10 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.
1 Kings 3:9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
1 Kings 3:10 And the speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.
2 Chronicles 19:5 And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
2 Chronicles 19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
Psalms 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Psalms 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
It's a serious matter throughout the word to sit as a judge over the things of God. There can't be any righteous judgment unless Jesus is in it directing and revealing the truth.
Isaiah 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
Ezekiel 20:3 Son of man, speak unto the elders of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye come to enquire of me? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.
Ezekiel 20:4 Wilt thou judge them, son of man, wilt thou judge them? cause them to know the abominations of their fathers:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
They knew what the law said, yet they didn't keep it...just like Stephen told them in acts 7.
Like you said, it's a lot like today...
J
1 Corinthians 6:
[SUP]1[/SUP] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? [SUP]2[/SUP] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [SUP]3[/SUP] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? [SUP]4[/SUP] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [SUP]5[/SUP] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? [SUP]6[/SUP] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. [SUP]7[/SUP] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [SUP]8[/SUP] Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
I believe that there are two "main points" that Paul is making here:
~ Those in the Church should not be going outside of the Church to "solve" disputes / problems between its members. It is a shame for any saint to place their "concerns" in the hands of anyone who is not a saint. It is a shame for a saint to voluntarily place themselves under the judgment of anyone who is not a saint. It is a shame if saints cannot "solve" their own disputes / problems themselves.
~ Even the "least" of those in the Church should be able to judge matters [ of this life ]. It is a shame if all ( each and every one ) who are in the Church are not able to judge matters [ of this life ].
Verse 4 is a statement, not a question. It is a "suggestive" command. ( And, yes - perhaps a bit sarcastic? ) It is making the point that - the "least esteemed in the church" would / should judge well matters [ of this life ] - and that, none should be afraid of their judgment ( Because, their 'discipleship' / 'training' / [ spiritual ] 'maturity' should not be any different than - and "just as good as" - any of the "most esteemed in the church" - i.e., they should be "just as able as anyone" to judge matters [ of this life ]. )
By telling them to set the "least esteemed in the church" as judges, Paul is reinforcing the foundational 'tenant' of doctrine that - if properly and faithfully followed - prevents "off-balance" leadership within the Church. ( Which happens when the "most esteemed in the church" are "lifted up" while the "least esteemed in the church" are "lowered" or ignored. )
[SUP]1[/SUP] Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? [SUP]2[/SUP] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [SUP]3[/SUP] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? [SUP]4[/SUP] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [SUP]5[/SUP] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? [SUP]6[/SUP] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. [SUP]7[/SUP] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? [SUP]8[/SUP] Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
I believe that there are two "main points" that Paul is making here:
~ Those in the Church should not be going outside of the Church to "solve" disputes / problems between its members. It is a shame for any saint to place their "concerns" in the hands of anyone who is not a saint. It is a shame for a saint to voluntarily place themselves under the judgment of anyone who is not a saint. It is a shame if saints cannot "solve" their own disputes / problems themselves.
~ Even the "least" of those in the Church should be able to judge matters [ of this life ]. It is a shame if all ( each and every one ) who are in the Church are not able to judge matters [ of this life ].
Verse 4 is a statement, not a question. It is a "suggestive" command. ( And, yes - perhaps a bit sarcastic? ) It is making the point that - the "least esteemed in the church" would / should judge well matters [ of this life ] - and that, none should be afraid of their judgment ( Because, their 'discipleship' / 'training' / [ spiritual ] 'maturity' should not be any different than - and "just as good as" - any of the "most esteemed in the church" - i.e., they should be "just as able as anyone" to judge matters [ of this life ]. )
By telling them to set the "least esteemed in the church" as judges, Paul is reinforcing the foundational 'tenant' of doctrine that - if properly and faithfully followed - prevents "off-balance" leadership within the Church. ( Which happens when the "most esteemed in the church" are "lifted up" while the "least esteemed in the church" are "lowered" or ignored. )
I somehow missed this post yesterday, but it seems as if we're on the same page here.
J
Yes, either way, Paul's admonition was to take it before the saints. Here's the scary part, though...
Imagine, for example, that this forum was A CHURCH and a dispute arose amongst two people here. Would you want said dispute resolved by people here? I'm just being honest...in regard to several people here, I wouldn't want them to watch my cat for an hour, let alone resolve any dispute that I might be in. What am I saying? That I'm against Paul's admonition? No, instead I'm lamenting the overall condition of the professing body of Christ in that it's theologically challenged, to say the least.
God help us.
Imagine, for example, that this forum was A CHURCH and a dispute arose amongst two people here. Would you want said dispute resolved by people here? I'm just being honest...in regard to several people here, I wouldn't want them to watch my cat for an hour, let alone resolve any dispute that I might be in. What am I saying? That I'm against Paul's admonition? No, instead I'm lamenting the overall condition of the professing body of Christ in that it's theologically challenged, to say the least.
God help us.
V
Totally wrong, and not even close to answering the question anyway. Paul is not setting himself up as a judge of anyone in that verse, but boasting in Christ that someone as lowly as he, a murderer, would become Christ's advocate among the Gentiles.
I asked where you could find a passage that Paul or anyone else wrote in God's word that advocates making the "least esteemed" a judge over anyone? All I got was Gary's foggy mystical pronouncement that I can't see it for pride -- a cop-out answer that results from his inability to find such a passage -- and this response which doesn't approach a real solution, even though it pretends to answer the question.
If you care to try again, without the mystery, feel free. I doubt you'll be any more successful that Gary.
I asked where you could find a passage that Paul or anyone else wrote in God's word that advocates making the "least esteemed" a judge over anyone? All I got was Gary's foggy mystical pronouncement that I can't see it for pride -- a cop-out answer that results from his inability to find such a passage -- and this response which doesn't approach a real solution, even though it pretends to answer the question.
If you care to try again, without the mystery, feel free. I doubt you'll be any more successful that Gary.
J
Well, seeing how you and I have participated in something like 4 different forums together over the last 10 years or so, I'd still definitely say that this forum is by far the best of the bunch. I do actually believe that there are quite a few people here who actually know what they're talking about, but the problem is that their voices aren't often the most vocal and they get "drowned out", so to speak.
Anyhow, all will ultimately be resolved before the judgment seat of Christ...and that's going to be a scary day for some of whom I hope not to be numbered myself.
Anyhow, all will ultimately be resolved before the judgment seat of Christ...and that's going to be a scary day for some of whom I hope not to be numbered myself.
D
Thats what I have said before, that this (by far) is one of the best forums in comparison, and this is my last though, Im done all forums after this one when my time comes.
I dont think anyone wants to hear the Lord Jesus Christ say depart from him for working inquity or not walking in the love of God through the Spirit for not doing a single kindness to the least of those who are considered "these brethren of mine".
I dont think anyone wants to hear the Lord Jesus Christ say depart from him for working inquity or not walking in the love of God through the Spirit for not doing a single kindness to the least of those who are considered "these brethren of mine".
J
I hear you.
I was about to have my account here deleted last week (Was that thunderous applause that I just heard?), but I'm still here...barely.
Well, from what I've read (and I trust that you've read the same), there are many people here who don't even think that such is a possibility in that they're allegedly "once saved, always saved".
I was about to have my account here deleted last week (Was that thunderous applause that I just heard?), but I'm still here...barely.
Well, from what I've read (and I trust that you've read the same), there are many people here who don't even think that such is a possibility in that they're allegedly "once saved, always saved".