"It is finished." What is the "it?"

[psychomom]

Well, I'd say it's a pretty extreme literal reading of the text, not seeing the problems/contradictions to other scriptures it brings. If Christ needed to literally suffer the penalty of sin then it would not only be needed to "die spiritually" but also to suffer in hell, and even the lake of fire, in our stead (since that is the ultimate consequences of sin) and actually most "Jesus died spiritually" (JDS) teachers teaches that Jesus suffered in hell for a time. Again, gladly you're not going that dark road, but still the literalism you keep on to brings it to a similar direction. The problem arises once one thinks that Jesus became a literal sinner or that He was literally forsaken by the Father. While God treated Him as a sinner at the time of atonement, He still did not actually become one. The sin offering didn't literally become sin. It's quite a difference even though someone might think its picky theology stuffs.

i don't disagree, but please can you explain
"eli eli lama sabachthani" ?

fulfillment of Ps 22?
speaking in our place?

thank you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I'd say it's a pretty extreme literal reading of the text, not seeing the problems/contradictions to other scriptures it brings. If Christ needed to literally suffer the penalty of sin then it would not only be needed to "die spiritually" but also to suffer in hell, and even the lake of fire, in our stead (since that is the ultimate consequences of sin) and actually most "Jesus died spiritually" (JDS) teachers teaches that Jesus suffered in hell for a time. Again, gladly you're not going that dark road, but still the literalism you keep on to brings it to a similar direction. The problem arises once one thinks that Jesus became a literal sinner or that He was literally forsaken by the Father. While God treated Him as a sinner at the time of atonement, He still did not actually become one. The sin offering didn't literally become sin. It's quite a difference even though someone might think its picky theology stuffs.

no that is not true.

Hell is not a penalty of sin, it was created for satan and his angels.

God did not tell Adam, in the moment you sin you will go to hell. he said the moment you sin you will die. so Jesus owuld not have to go to hell to pay for sin, it was not a penalty.

Hell is eternal spiritual death for those who were not born again. not the penalty of sin, the penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is life. (not speaking pf physical death here)

your reading to much into it, again, it is not rocket science

 

[tribesman]

no that is not true.

Hell is not a penalty of sin, it was created for satan and his angels.

God did not tell Adam, in the moment you sin you will go to hell. he said the moment you sin you will die. so Jesus owuld not have to go to hell to pay for sin, it was not a penalty.

Hell is eternal spiritual death for those who were not born again. not the penalty of sin, the penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is life. (not speaking pf physical death here)

your reading to much into it, again, it is not rocket science

What is too much into it? You know as well as I do that there's a consequence of sin, to die the death. Now, your reply wasn't very much of a defense for the notion that Jesus became a literal sinner, was it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is too much into it? You know as well as I do that there's a consequence of sin, to die the death. Now, your reply wasn't very much of a defense for the notion that Jesus became a literal sinner, was it?

I never claimed he became literal sinner. My claim is my sin was placed on his body, and he suffered judgment for that sin.

"he who knew no sin became sin for me so I can be made the righteousness of God through him"

 

[tribesman]

i don't disagree, but please can you explain
"eli eli lama sabachthani" ?

fulfillment of Ps 22?
speaking in our place?

thank you.

It was an agonizing moment for our Lord to take our detestable sins upon Him. I advice you to google Calvin's and Spurgeon's commentaries on Ps. 22.

 

[michael56]

What is the it that is finished?

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believeth Rom 10:4

 

[tribesman]

I never claimed he became literal sinner. My claim is my sin was placed on his body, and he suffered judgment for that sin.

"he who knew no sin became sin for me so I can be made the righteousness of God through him"

If that was all you said it was no discussion, as we'd agree. But your saying that Christ died spiritually. Maybe you think what that actually means, or amounts to, one more time then?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It was an agonizing moment for our Lord to take our detestable sins upon Him. I advice you to google Calvin's and Spurgeon's commentaries on Ps. 22.

and when God took those detestable sins on him, did not God forsake him because of those sins?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If that was all you said it was no discussion, as we'd agree. But your saying that Christ died spiritually. Maybe you think what that actually means, or amounts to, one more time then?

Christ dieing spiritually means God the father and HS forsook (departed) from Christ.

ie psalms 22 and Jesus own words.

 

[tribesman]

and when God took those detestable sins on him, did not God forsake him because of those sins?

Not literally. The separation was not one of nature, essence, or substance. It was one of loss of intimacy, for that while when He bore our sins.

[h=3]2Cor.5[/h][19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not literally. The separation was not one of nature, essence, or substance. It was one of loss of intimacy, for that while when He bore our sins.

thanks, you just explained spiritual death.

adam lost that when he sinned.

we are born without it. and can not have it until that intimacy is restored when we are born again, if we die having never been born again, we will remain in that state forever, that is called hell..

 

[tribesman]

Christ dieing spiritually means God the father and HS forsook (departed) from Christ.

ie psalms 22 and Jesus own words.

Rather your words, or your understanding of these texts.

You wrote before:

...How can I be made alive, while I am DEAAD in my tresspasses and sin, if Jesus did not die the death I was suffering (spiritual)

If Jesus died the same way you yourself said Adam died, then does that not make Him a sinner?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rather your words, or your understanding of these texts.

You wrote before:

If Jesus died the same way you yourself said Adam died, then does that not make Him a sinner?

Your not making any sense to me..

If I am tried and convicted of a crime, And my penalty is 1000 dollars. Nothing that 1000 dollars will pay for that crime. If my father comes and pays the 1000 dollars. He redeemed my debt, But he can not redeem it with anything other than the 1000 dollars.

How does that make him a sinner? My sin was placed on his body. He paid the debt I owe God (spiritual death) in my place. it does not make him a sinner. It makes him a redeemer, and proves he is a God of true love.

 

[tribesman]

Your not making any sense to me..

If I am tried and convicted of a crime, And my penalty is 1000 dollars. Nothing that 1000 dollars will pay for that crime. If my father comes and pays the 1000 dollars. He redeemed my debt, But he can not redeem it with anything other than the 1000 dollars.

How does that make him a sinner? My sin was placed on his body. He paid the debt I owe God (spiritual death) in my place. it does not make him a sinner. It makes him a redeemer, and proves he is a God of true love.

Dunno yet if you're changing your story. But you are still saying that Jesus was literally forsaken by the Father. And that He died spiritually, as did Adam. Have you thought closer what that would bring you by way of consequence?

 

[tribesman]

thanks, you just explained spiritual death.

adam lost that when he sinned.

we are born without it. and can not have it until that intimacy is restored when we are born again, if we die having never been born again, we will remain in that state forever, that is called hell..

Are you saying that Jesus was born again after having been restored from being forsaken by the Father?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dunno yet if you're changing your story. But you are still saying that Jesus was literally forsaken by the Father. And that He died spiritually, as did Adam. Have you thought closer what that would bring you by way of consequence?

I am just taking Jesus at his word.

Jesus said God forsook him (because of my sin) I trust him. Jesus could not sin, so Jesus did not lie when he said that. If he did lie, he just sinned, and his sacrifice was null and void, because he is a sinner.

he felt Gods presence depart from him, thats why he cried out. nothing more, nothing less

not sure what you mean about "by way of consequence"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you saying that Jesus was born again after having been restored from being forsaken by the Father?

the penalty for sin was paid in full right? would jesus remain spiritually dead after?

The mere fact that Jesus stopped screaming and spoke coherantly and in peace proves that the relationship between him and God was restored. he was again comforted in human form by God.

 

[tribesman]

...not sure what you mean about "by way of consequence"

You are saying: ..How can I be made alive, while I am DEAAD in my tresspasses and sin, if Jesus did not die the death I was suffering (spiritual). I see no scripture saying that Jesus died such a death, as Adam did. This I do since that would collide with other scriptures pertaining to Jesus's life and person. The notion that Jesus died spiritually is to take things too far. In this case it's obviously based on selective literalist reading of the text. Jesus experienced a state of hopelessness and having been forsaken, at the cross, for a while, however God was with Him all along.

2Cor.5

[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

No literal forsaking there.

 

[tribesman]

the penalty for sin was paid in full right? would jesus remain spiritually dead after?

The mere fact that Jesus stopped screaming and spoke coherantly and in peace proves that the relationship between him and God was restored. he was again comforted in human form by God.

Was He born again at that moment? Yes or no?

 

[1joseph]

Originally Posted by tribesman

Are you saying that Jesus was born again after having been restored from being forsaken by the Father?

the penalty for sin was paid in full right? would jesus remain spiritually dead after?

The mere fact that Jesus stopped screaming and spoke coherantly and in peace proves that the relationship between him and God was restored. he was again comforted in human form by God.

And he (Christ the Messiah) was doing spiritual work (witnessing in Hades) while his fleshly body lay in the tomb, before conquering death and exiting the tomb.