Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)
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Remember, In an earlier post of mine I brought in the following verses from 1 John 1:
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
I fail to any see the reasoning for the OP to have excluded those verses. They are essential to understanding verses 8 and 9, and are also in the very context!
If I recall, having reread the OP yesterday, one issue in the OP had to do with sin: Can a believer live a sinless life? Something of that sort.
My answer is NO. And why argue the point? Since the truth is no one other than Jesus has lived a sinless life.
Jason, the cleansing blood in verse 7 is continual for those walking in the light. How can a person be in the light if he or she has sinned?
1. Because the blood is continuing to cleanse.
2. Because the person is walking in the light, and that walk includes confessing (repenting) of sin, which, and this is for emphasis sake toward my point, means the person does not deny he has sin.
Back to the man walking in the light but lusts after a woman.
So the man is walking in the light. Suddenly, he sees a woman and finds her attractive. He is a male with red blood. He is not a homosexual. He has a thought. It is bad. Sinful. But as much as he had that thought, it's not in his heart. It's his flesh. It is not his will to commit adultery with her. But the thought was there. Kind of like seeing a $100 bill fall out of a person's hand as that person strolls by. Many would think "I can use that. I want that. I can take it."
The man leaves the mall with his wife and is struck by a car (The driver was the attractive woman. As she was driving, she was texting a boy friend). The man dies. Even though he lusted after the woman, he had the thought, his heart was not committed to it. He was in the light. He forgot to confess. So how is he forgiven? Because of the continual cleansing of the blood.
Yes, Jesus said just a lustful look is fornication. But he was addressing folks who were persuaded by religious leaders that they (religious leaders) were without sin. How so? We don't murder. We don't lie. We don't commit adultery.
Jesus says, "Nope. They are not sinless." How's that? Because they were corrupt in the heart.
Back to 1 John 1.
In that chapter, there is no license to sin. There is no free pass. God is not "winking" at sin and letting it just go.
Those who walk in the light, do admit and confess their sin and are cleansed. Does that mean I must confess every single sin? No. I can't. I probably sin in ways I don't realize or am aware of. But the sins I know, usually those are the intentional, more deliberate ones, I seek God's grace, mercy, forgiveness.
If I have to confess every sin to be forgiven, itemize them, I cannot have peace. I will live in fear. That's not any better than living under the Old Law.
Hope this helps.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
I fail to any see the reasoning for the OP to have excluded those verses. They are essential to understanding verses 8 and 9, and are also in the very context!
If I recall, having reread the OP yesterday, one issue in the OP had to do with sin: Can a believer live a sinless life? Something of that sort.
My answer is NO. And why argue the point? Since the truth is no one other than Jesus has lived a sinless life.
Jason, the cleansing blood in verse 7 is continual for those walking in the light. How can a person be in the light if he or she has sinned?
1. Because the blood is continuing to cleanse.
2. Because the person is walking in the light, and that walk includes confessing (repenting) of sin, which, and this is for emphasis sake toward my point, means the person does not deny he has sin.
Back to the man walking in the light but lusts after a woman.
So the man is walking in the light. Suddenly, he sees a woman and finds her attractive. He is a male with red blood. He is not a homosexual. He has a thought. It is bad. Sinful. But as much as he had that thought, it's not in his heart. It's his flesh. It is not his will to commit adultery with her. But the thought was there. Kind of like seeing a $100 bill fall out of a person's hand as that person strolls by. Many would think "I can use that. I want that. I can take it."
The man leaves the mall with his wife and is struck by a car (The driver was the attractive woman. As she was driving, she was texting a boy friend). The man dies. Even though he lusted after the woman, he had the thought, his heart was not committed to it. He was in the light. He forgot to confess. So how is he forgiven? Because of the continual cleansing of the blood.
Yes, Jesus said just a lustful look is fornication. But he was addressing folks who were persuaded by religious leaders that they (religious leaders) were without sin. How so? We don't murder. We don't lie. We don't commit adultery.
Jesus says, "Nope. They are not sinless." How's that? Because they were corrupt in the heart.
Back to 1 John 1.
In that chapter, there is no license to sin. There is no free pass. God is not "winking" at sin and letting it just go.
Those who walk in the light, do admit and confess their sin and are cleansed. Does that mean I must confess every single sin? No. I can't. I probably sin in ways I don't realize or am aware of. But the sins I know, usually those are the intentional, more deliberate ones, I seek God's grace, mercy, forgiveness.
If I have to confess every sin to be forgiven, itemize them, I cannot have peace. I will live in fear. That's not any better than living under the Old Law.
Hope this helps.
jesus turned his back on peter. in the original it was clear. in most english it is not.
[h=3]Matthew 16:23 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter[/h]
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But Yeshua turned his back on Kefa, saying, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my path, because your thinking is from a human perspective, not from God’s perspective!”
[h=3]Matthew 16:23 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter[/h]
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But Yeshua turned his back on Kefa, saying, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my path, because your thinking is from a human perspective, not from God’s perspective!”
P
Jason, I pray for you. I do not pray that you will believe everything I do but that you will allow God to show you how much He loves you, that you will understand the length and depth and height and breadth of His love for you.
The prodigal son was NEVER absent from his father's heart and nothing separates you from the love of God for you are His child Jason.??????????????????????????????
The prodigal son was NEVER absent from his father's heart and nothing separates you from the love of God for you are His child Jason.??????????????????????????????
P
Jason, I pray for you. I do not pray that you will believe everything I do but that you will allow God to show you how much He loves you, that you will understand the length and depth and height and breadth of His love for you.
The prodigal son was NEVER absent from his father's heart and nothing separates you from the love of God for you are His child Jason.
The prodigal son was NEVER absent from his father's heart and nothing separates you from the love of God for you are His child Jason.
First, I have been debating against OSAS for many years now; And it's the same old story. Many times I will not even get an explanation on many passages. When I do get an explanation, the context either gets ignored or twisted beyond it's plain straightforward meaning. Also, there is no love from most OSAS proponents I talk with, either. There is no debating the Scriptures in a loving and respectful way. I either receive an attack upon my character or I will receive baseless accusations that I believe in Works Salvationism, when that is the furthest thing from what I believe.
Second, I have talked with OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved. Some OSAS proponents do say that a believer must be holy or they are not a true believer, but what is strange is that their beliefs are no different from those who think they can sin and be saved.
Third, even if you claim that you are for righteousness, if I go down the OSAS Check List of commonly held OSAS beliefs, we can easily see that such a doctrine leads to immorality and not holiness.
OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:
#1. Future Sins are Forgiven.
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect.
#1. Future Sins Forgiven.
When you tell someone their future sin is forgiven them and you forget to tell them about holiness, you essentially are telling them that they have a license to sin. For if there is no consequence, then people are not going to have any incentive to do what is right. For example: If a law was passed in your state that could allow you to go over the posted speed limit signs on the high way (at any speed you like), then what do you think a lot of people are going to do? More people are going to speed because they know there is no consequences of being pulled over and getting potentially fined. However, if there was a law that said you could pay up to 7,000 dollars for going 10 over the speed limit then more people would start to slow down. It is only natural because now the consequences are more severe. In other words, when you tell people their future sin is forgiven them, then they will not take sin as seriously and think they can get away with it.
#2. Sin is only leads to Physical Death.
In this false belief one is actually rewarded faster in going to Heaven by doing that which is evil (Which is just sick).
#3. You Can be out of Fellowship with God and Still be Saved.
The Bible teaches that eternal life is an exclusive property of the Son. For Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Suggesting that you can be out of fellowship with God implies that one can get away with sin and still be saved (Whatever amount of period of time that might be).
#4. Not Confessing One Serious Sin Before you Die will not send you to Hell.
There are actually OSAS proponents out there today who told another believer who was thinking about suicide that they would not go to Hell if they committed suicide. Granted, they said do not commit suicide, but they were essentially saying that they could kill themselves and be with Jesus. This is just evil and wrong on so many levels I do not even no where to begin. The moral issue alone should tell someone it is wrong. For was Jim Jones doing a good thing when he got his people to commit suicide? Do you think those people are saved? Anyways, this belief encourages suicide because there is no real spiritual or eternal consequence in committing suicide (According to many popular OSAS beliefs).
#5. Once a Son, Always a Son.
This suggests that it doesn't matter how bad a family member might get, they are still a part of the family. But this doesn't make sense because if they killed one of their own family members they would be placed into jail and possibly executed and be dead; Hence, they could no longer function as an active member of that family anymore. Also, many in the OSAS camp will say you can't be unborn, too. But this doesn't make any sense to say because people in real life are born into this world and then die. So the proper analogy is that one can die. This makes sense because the Bible says "death" is the wages of sin. So yes, you may be born as a son, but if they die, they cannot function in that family anymore by playing ball with them and or eating with them, etc.
#6. Sin cannot break the Seal of the Spirit.
The Assumption here is that the Seal is unbreakable. Nowhere does the verse ever say that. Seals in the Bible have been broken open like in the book of Revelation. Besides, Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord left him. David cried out to God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. If David believed that the Spirit could not be taken from him, he would have never said what he did in Psalm 51.
#7. We are Sinners and Nobody will ever be Perfect.
Here we see the holiness doctrine being thrown right out the window. Any hope at teaching righteousness would be a hypocritical act on behalf of the OSAS teacher because he or she cannot be righteous themselves. He or she believes they will never be perfect or that they cannot be righteous. But Jesus said, be ye perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect; And the Scriptures say, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
Second, I have talked with OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved. Some OSAS proponents do say that a believer must be holy or they are not a true believer, but what is strange is that their beliefs are no different from those who think they can sin and be saved.
Third, even if you claim that you are for righteousness, if I go down the OSAS Check List of commonly held OSAS beliefs, we can easily see that such a doctrine leads to immorality and not holiness.
OSAS's Commonly Held Dark Beliefs:
#1. Future Sins are Forgiven.
#2. Sin only leads to Physical Death and Not Spiritual Death.
#3. You can be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved.
#4. Not Confessing one Serious Sin before you die will not Send You to Hell.
#5. Once a Son Always a Son or You Cannot be Unborn.
#6. Sin Cannot break the seal of the Spirit.
#7. We are sinners and nobody can be perfect.
#1. Future Sins Forgiven.
When you tell someone their future sin is forgiven them and you forget to tell them about holiness, you essentially are telling them that they have a license to sin. For if there is no consequence, then people are not going to have any incentive to do what is right. For example: If a law was passed in your state that could allow you to go over the posted speed limit signs on the high way (at any speed you like), then what do you think a lot of people are going to do? More people are going to speed because they know there is no consequences of being pulled over and getting potentially fined. However, if there was a law that said you could pay up to 7,000 dollars for going 10 over the speed limit then more people would start to slow down. It is only natural because now the consequences are more severe. In other words, when you tell people their future sin is forgiven them, then they will not take sin as seriously and think they can get away with it.
#2. Sin is only leads to Physical Death.
In this false belief one is actually rewarded faster in going to Heaven by doing that which is evil (Which is just sick).
#3. You Can be out of Fellowship with God and Still be Saved.
The Bible teaches that eternal life is an exclusive property of the Son. For Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Suggesting that you can be out of fellowship with God implies that one can get away with sin and still be saved (Whatever amount of period of time that might be).
#4. Not Confessing One Serious Sin Before you Die will not send you to Hell.
There are actually OSAS proponents out there today who told another believer who was thinking about suicide that they would not go to Hell if they committed suicide. Granted, they said do not commit suicide, but they were essentially saying that they could kill themselves and be with Jesus. This is just evil and wrong on so many levels I do not even no where to begin. The moral issue alone should tell someone it is wrong. For was Jim Jones doing a good thing when he got his people to commit suicide? Do you think those people are saved? Anyways, this belief encourages suicide because there is no real spiritual or eternal consequence in committing suicide (According to many popular OSAS beliefs).
#5. Once a Son, Always a Son.
This suggests that it doesn't matter how bad a family member might get, they are still a part of the family. But this doesn't make sense because if they killed one of their own family members they would be placed into jail and possibly executed and be dead; Hence, they could no longer function as an active member of that family anymore. Also, many in the OSAS camp will say you can't be unborn, too. But this doesn't make any sense to say because people in real life are born into this world and then die. So the proper analogy is that one can die. This makes sense because the Bible says "death" is the wages of sin. So yes, you may be born as a son, but if they die, they cannot function in that family anymore by playing ball with them and or eating with them, etc.
#6. Sin cannot break the Seal of the Spirit.
The Assumption here is that the Seal is unbreakable. Nowhere does the verse ever say that. Seals in the Bible have been broken open like in the book of Revelation. Besides, Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord left him. David cried out to God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. If David believed that the Spirit could not be taken from him, he would have never said what he did in Psalm 51.
#7. We are Sinners and Nobody will ever be Perfect.
Here we see the holiness doctrine being thrown right out the window. Any hope at teaching righteousness would be a hypocritical act on behalf of the OSAS teacher because he or she cannot be righteous themselves. He or she believes they will never be perfect or that they cannot be righteous. But Jesus said, be ye perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect; And the Scriptures say, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
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Actually, rejecting the complete, sufficient sacrifice of Christ and interjecting yourself and your abilities would qualify as pure evil, calls Jesus a liar and is a doctrine with no power to save and is double cursed to hell......good luck with your works Jason and rejection of the work of Jesus which satisfied the Heavenly Father.......tragic.......!
K
What Early Church Fathers Said about Eternal Security
“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)
“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 A.D. 180)
“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwillingly. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” (Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 A.D. 204)
“Therefore, the ones who are pardoned are those who slip into sin unintentionally and incautiously. He who sins willfully has no pardon.” (Lactantius, A.D. 304)
“By believing in Him you will live. But by disbelieving you will be punished.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)
“Grace with the Lord, when once learned and undertaken by us, should never afterward be cancelled by repetition of sin.” (Tertullian, A.D. 203)
“He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)
“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)
“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)
“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)
“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law] and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death—you will by no means be saved.” (Justin Martyr, A.D. 160)
“Rather, we should fear ourselves, lest perchance, after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do those things displeasing to God, we obtain not further forgiveness for sin, but are shut out of His kingdom.” (Irenaeus, A.D. 180)
“He who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome and narrow. So let him who has once received the gospel not turn back.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)
“God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)
“The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins.” (Tertullian, A.D. 198)
“Rather they must be preserved. It is not the actual attainment, but the perfecting, that keeps a man for God.” (Cyprian, A.D. 250)
“A son who deserts his father in order not to pay him obedience is considered deserving of being disinherited and having his name removed forever from his family.” (Lactaintius, A.D. 304)
“He who sins after baptism, unless he forsakes his sins, will be condemned to Gehenna.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)
“These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us. Wherefore let us give up vain and fruitless cares, and approach to the glorious and venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 7:33-36)
“Day and night ye were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 2:7, 8)