Holiday confusion

Biblelogic01 · Mar 27, 2015

I went over these verses and I study and know history pretty well. My question will be after the verse.

Deuteronomy 12:

"1 These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess--as long as you live in the land. 2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places. 4 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way. . . . 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same." 31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. 32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it."

So my question is even though it is in the "old covenant", why would we celebrate holidays based off of pagan beliefs instilled by Constantine?

Part 2

Why do we not celebrate Holidays that are in the bible that you can clearly see our Saviour in all if them? You can read about them in Leviticus 23 and it also states in Leviticus 23 that they're suppose to be observed through all generations.

mcubed · Mar 27, 2015

[h=1]Thank you, thank you…. I think these are rhetorical questions. If not they should be!!!!! You are right. But anyway…. People will accuse you of being a Judaizer. You are not. You’re quoting scripture and pointing out what is logical. G-d did not become schizophrenic and all of the sudden change His Word. Y-shua fulfilled the mechanism of redemption, it is not bulls and goats but by His blood sacrifice and that is the end of that. He is the fulfillment of the Torah. G-d’s appointed times are His and beautiful and we celebrate them today thru Y-shua’s fulfillment. On April 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] sundown until April 4[SUP]th[/SUP] sundown I will celebrate Pasha (Passover) and I will do it in honor of my Messiah. I cannot wait the best time ever!!!!!!! [/h] [h=1] [/h]

maxwel · Mar 27, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

Yes, but all of WHO'S generations?

ISRAEL'S

Lev 23:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Lev 23:10
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Lev 23:24
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Lev 23:34
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.

Lev 23:43
That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 23:44
And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

It says SIX TIMES in that chapter that all these feasts are for ISRAEL, and they're to be observed by all generations of ISRAEL.

If you want to go around keeping Israel's sacred holidays, go ahead.
That's fine.
But don't pretend like the whole world is COMMANDED to keep those feasts.
ONLY ISRAEL was commanded to keep those feasts.
How do I know?
GOD SAID IT SIX TIMES IN ONE CHAPTER!!!

Karraster · Mar 27, 2015

Good question! The Creator of the universe is alive forevermore, He has a calendar. His calendar has His appointments, which we are invited to join Him on His appointed times. Gladly, with pleasure, I accept!

meanwhile..back at the ranch, Constantine has returned to dust..he ain't keepin any appointments....

Jeff_56 · Mar 27, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

why? 'because we have 'always' done it this way' // "it has been 'christianized'" (both evil excuses).

for most of history, and the last 2000 years, politically , socially, and religiously, economically and
every other way of the flesh,
the world has been immersed in wickedness, and is growing worse in wickedness, and not getting better.

the wicked are becoming more wicked, rebelling against yahweh and not even thinking of calling for help.

the righteous are becoming more righteous. (turning/ returning to yahweh),

and are always persecuted by the world and the worldly.

Biblelogic01 · Mar 27, 2015

maxwel said:

So even though in Ezekiel, when it was prophesied about G-d being our shepherd and bring the scattered sheep back to Him and His ways, you're saying G-d has a change of heart and does not want this anymore? Because later on He does come to earth as a shepherd, and is the good shepherd. And Yeshua (found in John 10) states that He is the good shepherd coming to bring in His flock, and not just 1 flock, but He talks about bringing 2 flocks together. Yeshua being Jewish and pretty well studied in the prophets, when He was speaking this message I'm pretty sure He was reffering to Ezekiel's prophecy, which is why the Pharisees had a problem with Yeshua saying this, because that was putting Himself at the same level as G-d. Which to Pharisees that was unheard of. To put that into example, what would you say if someone very well versed in scripture, went into your church and claim He was G-d, and when this person claims this, it's just very random and out of nowhere and he has no evidence or proof of it. That's basically how the Pharisees saw it most likely (but that's a different topic). So with Yeshua proclaiming He is the good shepherd and speaking of bring 2 folds of sheep together (while reffering to the prophecy), my main question to is this. Would Yeshua (being G-d and of G-d's ways) bring 2 seperate groups of people together (Jews and gentiles) and hold one of those groups to standards of living, and the other to no standards of living? Also do you think Yeshua would celebrate a holiday or holidays based off of pagan beliefs?

Biblelogic01 · Mar 27, 2015

Also are we not the descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (name changed by G-d to Israel)? I would think that would still make us children of Israel.

john832 · Mar 27, 2015

maxwel said:

Perhaps you should go back to your optometrist and have that eyeglass fixed...

Lev 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

And it goes on throughout the chapter. You sorta missed this part with your bolding and underlining and enlarged text but these are not the Feasts of Israel, they are the Feasts of the LORD.

Siberian_Khatru · Mar 27, 2015

Happy National Joe Day, everyone.

maxwel · Mar 27, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

1.
First of all, I never MENTIONED pagan holidays, or ANY DAYS AT ALL except the Jewish feasts.
If you accuse me of that, you're creating a straw man.
Christmas, Easter, and any other holidays were NOWHERE in my conversation.
I don't care in the least if anyone celebrates Christ's birth 1 day a year, or every day of the year... it's irrelevant.
WE ARE DISCUSSING THE JEWISH FEASTS - ANYTHING ELSE YOU BRING UP IS A DIVERSION TACTIC.

2.
Leviticus chapter 23 is CLEARLY written to ISRAEL.
He says 6 times in that chapter it's written to ISRAEL.

3.
The "generations" mentioned are clearly, and unmistakably, the generations of ISRAEL.
While speaking to ISRAEL, God says these feasts will be "a statute forever throughout YOUR GENERATIONS".
Since God is addressing ISRAEL, and nobody else is there BUT ISRAEL,
"your generations" can't possibly be anything else but ISRAEL...
nobody else is standing there, and God says 6 times he's specifically talking to ISRAEL.

You pretty much have to stuff fingers in both ears to misunderstand God is talking to ISRAEL
when he says ISRAEL SIX TIMES.

4.
These feasts are part of the OT LAW, which we are NOT BOUND TO KEEP in the NT.

I'm not even going to get into this right now,
But THIS is the WHOLE ISSUE, and YOU know it, and I know it.

You want to believe you have to keep Old Testament Law,
even though this is totally contrary to New Testament Teaching.

There are tons of verses about this, and I don't have time right now to lay them all out.
I'm sure plenty of other people would be happy to do so.

Here is one quick example before I go.

4A.
Converted Pharisees were trying to make new converted Gentiles keep the OT laws of Moses.
In Acts 15 Paul goes to Jerusalem, where there were many NT CHRISTIANS who HAD BEEN PHARISEES. These Jewish believers wanted new converts to all keep the laws of MOSES... which would include things like CIRCUMCISION and the FEASTS.
Act 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

4B.
After much debate, Paul declares the new converts DO NOT have to keep the laws of Moses.
He says the new gentiles converts only need to follow a "few rules" and that is ONLY so as not to OFFEND the JEWISH BELIEVERS... not because it's actually necessary.
Act 15:19-21
19. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

4C.
WHY?
WHY do we no longer have to keep the laws of Moses?

4D.
Christ says the law stands UNTIL IT IS FULFILLED.
Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Christ says clearly the LAW WILL PASS... WHEN IT IS FULFILLED.

4E.
Christ says HE FULFILLS THE LAW...
therefore the above verse is satisfied, and the law no longer stands.
Mat 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Biblelogic01 · Mar 27, 2015

I do apologize for bringing the pagan holiday part.
I did though state a question in the original post and asked, "Why would we celebrate holidays based off of pagan beliefs instilled by Constantine?"

So there was reference to paganism in that question, but if I did mislead in my word again I do apologize.

Now on the not of Yeshua fulfilling the Law.

I do have a few questions that do reffer to the feasts.
The first 4 feast in Leviticus Yeshua as fulfilled, but what about the last 3?

The feast of trumpets, the day of atonement/judgement, and feast of tabernacles?

Yeshua has no fulfilled these, because if He has already (for all the rapture believers) then we're in big trouble. It states when Yeshua returns it will be at the blast of a trumpet, which links Yeshua to fulfilling the feast of trumpets.

Now after feast of trumpets, its the day of atonement/judgement which is where in Yeshua's return He will be the judge. This still has not happenned yet.

And then finally the feast of tabernacles, which is the feast of dwelling. We will be dwelling with the Messiah in the kingdom He establishes. Has He established a kingdom on earth yet and are we dwelling with Him? No.

So yes you are right about Yeshua stating the law will pass, after earth and heaven have passed away, and after He has fulfilled it.

But He has not fulfilled it yet because He has no returned for the 2nd coming.

Biblelogic01 · Mar 27, 2015

Also Paul taught the people to go to church. At the time of Paul there were not what we have as modern day churches. There were synagouges. Paul taught the gospel and salvation and to go and listen to what was being taught. What did they teach in the synagouges? They taught Torah and the prophets, through this they would slowly learn to follow this. When Paul/Yeshua were speaking of stuff against the Pharisees, and what they were doing, they were teaching against the legalistic side of the Torah. They were teaching against what the Pharisees were adding to the Torah, because there was a lot of that going on at that time. The Pharisees were adding laws to laws, which that in itself was against Torah, which is why the Pharisees were called hyprocits. If you look at the time line, there was new testament being taught at that period in time. The scriptures were being taught. The only scriptures they had were the old testament, unless they had time travel. The is the Torah, and then there is a legalistic Torah.

So again back to what new followers were being told, they were told to come to salvation first and foremost. Then after that to go to church (or again at the time synagouge), which they taught Torah and the prophets. And it's not like they took a rule book and threw it at them said follow this immediately. It would have been more like teaching a child to walk or speak. They would have slowly walked them through on it.

For me in my walk as a follower I've learned that the Torah is a lifestyle, now if someone thinks they are better than the other because they keep Torah and the other does not, then well sad day on that person because that's another thing Yeshua and Paul were getting at. Following Torah does not make you better or worse than the next person. Torah is a lifestyle. Also calling in it the law of Moses is incorrect because Moses did not make it. The almighty made it.

With that, going back to the feasts, again it states through all generations to observe. If G-d intended for them to end, He would not have said through all generations. All generations implies forever, and forever does not end, unless the dictionary is wrong on what the word forever means.

MarcR · Mar 27, 2015

maxwel said:

I think this hinges on WHAT BELIEVERS ARE ADOPTED INTO.

Many believers believe (I believe correctly) that they are adopted into Israel and more specifically into Judah.

Some try to make a separation (I believe incorrectly) between 'Spiritual Israel' and 'Physical Israel'. I believe there is one Israel.

If you believe believers' adoption does NOT include any connection with Israel; then your premise is right within that assumption; but I believe the assumption is wrong.

Zec chapter 14 clearly indicates that the feast of tabernacles will be mandatory for everyone during the millennium.

There is nothing to indicate that the others will not be.

Eva1218 · Mar 27, 2015

Holy Days are of GOD and holidays are of man.
Chose this day who you will serve!

Blessings! !!!!!!

maxwel · Mar 27, 2015

MarcR said:

So you believe there is no difference between Physical Israel and Spiritual Israel.
You believe there is ONE ISRAEL, and YOU are ADOPTED INTO IT.

Fantastic.
: )

Below I've added a pic of an ACTUAL CURRENT AIRLINE TICKET to ISRAEL (roundtrip).
It takes off TODAY!

I think you could prove your theory correct by purchasing this ticket,
flying to Israel,
telling them you've been adopted into Judah,
and YOU'D LIKE TO STAY INDEFINITELY.

And ... see what happens.

God Bless,
Max
: )

P.S.
Please send us pics of your new home!!
: )

MarcR,
I think you're a good guy, genuinely.
But as you can see... we disagree sometimes.
: )

Viligant_Warrior · Mar 27, 2015

Biblelogic01 said:

Yes, Jesus was probably born in September, not December. So what? Celebrating the advent of Christ isn't commanded, but it certainly is relevant to our faith. What isn't relevant to anything is the fact pagans celebrated something on the same day we have selected as Christmas. It doesn't make any difference. None. Nada. Zip. Big Goose Egg.

Resurrection Sunday/Easter is the first Sunday after the Passover. Jesus died the day before the Sabbath of Passover Week. We mark the day He rose again. That is very relevant. The fact pagans celebrate the equinox occasionally at the same time -- not always, because it doesn't alway fall coincidental to our celebration -- is again, irrelevant.

Biblelogic01 said:

We are under grace, and not under the Law. The Feasts are mandated under the Law. Therefore, we, being under the aforementioned grace, do not -- should not -- celebrate them, though knowing their meanings can help our witness to the Jewish population. Still, celebrating them would be the equivalent of placing ourselves back under the Law, and by doing so we deny His grace.

Any other questions, brother?

Biblelogic01 · Mar 28, 2015

Viligant_Warrior said:

Yes, I do have another question. Why do people look down on following Torah? I began my walk with Yeshua in high school (was baptised when I was like 6 or 7), but started my walk more so in high school. During high school I did just about what every other high schooler did, I was rebellious to my parents and a whole bunch of other disgustful things (didn't do drugs, but got close to). I was highly anti-semetic, to the point in middle school I told a Jew (who is actually a very good friend of mine now) that he is going to hell for not celebrating Christmas or Easter (I was young and naive, and along with that he just laughed at me at the time and I never understood why). I thought this was ok because what I was taught is basically I can do anything I want because of grace. Then at the end of my senior year, my youth group leader (due to refusing to celebrate Christmas and Easter) was leaving. Now I decided to talk to him about his decision and he pointed me to the word and I started studying it a lot more. I decided to follow the walk of Torah (not in a "legalistic" way) just simply take steps into walking it. My lifestyle got better and my relationship with the Lord got better. Now my parents (like most Christians) had a problem with this and it caused a lot of tension (my parents were already on the brink of a divorce, they weren't saying it, but you could tell). After a couple month my mom decided to start what I call a walk in a Torah lifestyle. Besides the relationship with my dad at the time her life started getting better, her busines picked up, and most of all either its just coincidence (which i dont believe in), but about 6 months into it she decided to start eating I guess you would say kosher and 6 months after that her diabetes was gone. Now about at this time my dad start doing a walk in Torah, and within just a few months my parents are not fighting anymore which was the main key as far as any kind of issue, along with that it has been a few years since then and their marriage has gone way some much better and their walk with the Lord has gotten so much better. Now we all know that salvation is through Yeshua and Yeshua alone, and following the Torah does not make one person better than the other. But my question is, if the Torah or "the Law" is so bad, then why have so many positive things come from it when walking it? Again I've seen both sides of walking in Torah and walking out of it.

Now the only reason why I ask this is, because yes their is scripture that to some, supports following Torah, and To others its agaisnt following Torah. So this is based off of a testimony of what I've seen throughout my life, and from what I've seen following Torah is not burdensome or a pain in the rear end to do like it's made out to be.

Vernon · Mar 28, 2015

Liberty in Christ, as much as you would like to place the Church in bondage to the Law, the Holy Spirit teaches liberty in Christ.
You have the freedom to observe holy days while another has the freedom to not observe or to change pagan feast days into christian holy days. In all things the importance is that Christ is glorified, whether it be called Easter or Passover, Christ is the cornerstone of both.

Biblelogic01 · Mar 28, 2015

And also antoher question. So you are saying that it's ok to celebrate a day of celebration that MAN established, but it's not ok to celebrate (even though it's "old covenant") that GOD established? That does not make sense to me, that's why its titled holiday confusion mainly because of that supporting theory. "Because "the Law" is "abolished" it doesn't matter whether it's MAN ordained or not there is grace for it, but if it's ordained by G-D through "the Law" that's absurd and you should not do that." That is what I've been told basically ever since I started my whole Torah walk.

P.S.
I do ask a lot of rhetorical questions.

Biblelogic01 · Mar 28, 2015

Based off of that testimony, if lived properly, there is no bondage in the Law. Which I think that is what Yeshua and Paul are also teaching. Again this is based off of what I've experienced through life.

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