JESUITS ZIONISTS & CHRISTIAN DISPENSATIONALISTS

[michael56]

Michael can't you see that Zechariah 12-20 was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross?

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

''And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.''



Can you not see, that if a time is coming when prophecy is fulfilled and they all know Christ from the least to the greatest, they will look on him whom they pierced, and mourn, each and every clan. They must look to him to be saved. It is entirely consistent.
They did not all look at the one they pierced and mourned for him at Christ's crucifixion, most mocked and taunted him, you have made a grave error

 

[KJV1611]

Originally Posted by KJV1611

Michael can't you see that Zechariah 12-20 was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross?

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
''And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.''



Can you not see, that if a time is coming when prophecy is fulfilled and they all know Christ from the least to the greatest, they will look on him whom they pierced, and mourn, each and every clan. They must look to him to be saved. It is entirely consistent.
They did not all look at the one they pierced and mourned for him at Christ's crucifixion, most mocked and taunted him, you have made a grave error

The only problem is... I didn't say it, John said Zechariah 12-20 was fulfilled. If you don't believe that them what did John mean when he said "For these things were done, that the scripture may be fulfilled"? What fulfilled scripture was Paul talking about?

 

[michael56]

The only problem is... I didn't say it, John said Zechariah 12-20 was fulfilled. If you don't believe that them what did John mean when he said "For these things were done, that the scripture may be fulfilled"? What fulfilled scripture was Paul talking about?

am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

''These things happened so that the scripture(singular) would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]37 [/SUP]and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced''

Doesn't say the second one was completely fulfilled. Some did look on the one they had pierced, but not all the clans with their wives. As all the clans can look on the one they have pierced and accept him as their Saviour. They must all look to Christ to all be saved
You need to read the whole of the chapter. Prior to Christ's crucifixion Jerusalem was not surrounded by armies, the following events that transpired did not transpire just before Christ's crucifixion, and as I keep pointing out to you, neither did all the people, and every clan mourn, just the opposite, most did not. Try not to build a theology-or hinge it on one verse that does not state that prophecy was completely fulfilled, it only says that of the first one(singular).

 

[KJV1611]

am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. [SUP]4 [/SUP]On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’[SUP]6 [/SUP]“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. [SUP]8 [/SUP]On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][a][/SUP] of grace and supplication. They will look on[SUP][b][/SUP] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. [SUP]11 [/SUP]On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. [SUP]12 [/SUP]The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, [SUP]13 [/SUP]the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, [SUP]14 [/SUP]and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

''These things happened so that the scripture(singular) would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]37 [/SUP]and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced''

Doesn't say the second one was completely fulfilled. Some did look on the one they had pierced, but not all the clans with their wives. As all the clans can look on the one they have pierced and accept him as their Saviour. They must all look to Christ to all be saved
You need to read the whole of the chapter. Prior to Christ's crucifixion Jerusalem was not surrounded by armies, the following events that transpired did not transpire just before Christ's crucifixion, and as I keep pointing out to you, neither did all the people, and every clan mourn, just the opposite, most did not. Try not to build a theology-or hinge it on one verse that does not state that prophecy was completely fulfilled, it only says that of the first one(singular).

I've read the whole chapter Michael and it's written in symbolic language. For example in verse 3 why is Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people and why will those that burden themselves with it be cut to pieces?

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Jerusalem is a burdensome stone because Jesus was there.

Rom_9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Luk_20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You take this verse that's talking about Jesus and change it into some end times turmoil with modern day Israel.

 

[Sophia]

For me, this debate comes down to the truth or falsehood of the statement that "all prophecy points to Christ".
I hold it to be very true.

 

[michael56]

I've read the whole chapter Michael and it's written in symbolic language. For example in verse 3 why is Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people and why will those that burden themselves with it be cut to pieces?

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Jerusalem is a burdensome stone because Jesus was there.

Rom_9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Luk_20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You take this verse that's talking about Jesus and change it into some end times turmoil with modern day Israel.

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves

Is it not obvious? The nations attacking Jerusalem will not succeed.

 

[michael56]

Rom_9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 9:30-33

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased Gal5:11


Why is the true offence of the cross circumcision(ie law as mentioned in Rom 9:30-33)

not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[SUP][a][/SUP] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith Phil3:9

No offence, but you are plucking verses out at random without understanding the context

 

[Pumicestone]

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Michael Post 1680: "all the nations of the earth" ???

Poor old Zechariah's known world was miniscule.
What's Michael's excuse ?
Does he really think that the Yanks and Canadians and Aussies and Patagonians and the good folk from Outer Mongolia are gonna go for Jerusalem's jugular ?

 

[michael56]

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Michael Post 1680: "all the nations of the earth" ???

Poor old Zechariah's known world was miniscule.
What's Michael's excuse ?
Does he really think that the Yanks and Canadians and Aussies and Patagonians and the good folk from Outer Mongolia are gonna go for Jerusalem's jugular ?

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her... NIV


It seems many on the internet consider themselves wiser than the scholars from all over the world who took 15 years to compile the NIV. Ah well

Of course, how many countries will be in a position to fight Jerusalem on that day? Much could happen before then

 

[KJV1611]

On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her... NIV


It seems many on the internet consider themselves wiser than the scholars from all over the world who took 15 years to compile the NIV. Ah well

Of course, how many countries will be in a position to fight Jerusalem on that day? Much could happen before then

Michael I told you Zechariah is highly symbolic. Nation does not mean country. We are a holy nation, are we going to come against Jerusalem also? Of course not!

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Stick with the easy to understand stuff first. Romans 9 makes it clear that physical Israel is not the heirs.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[KJV1611]

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Michael Post 1680: "all the nations of the earth" ???

Poor old Zechariah's known world was miniscule.
What's Michael's excuse ?
Does he really think that the Yanks and Canadians and Aussies and Patagonians and the good folk from Outer Mongolia are gonna go for Jerusalem's jugular ?

Not only does he think each of the countries are going for Jerusalem, he also believes that every man, woman and child alive on planet earth are going to gather against her.

 

[Pumicestone]

........ Of course, how many countries will be in a position to fight Jerusalem on that day? Much could happen before then

Oh, so some nations might not be "in a position to fight" ?
So much for "all the nations"
Squirm.

 

[michael56]

Michael I told you Zechariah is highly symbolic. Nation does not mean country. We are a holy nation, are we going to come against Jerusalem also? Of course not!

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Stick with the easy to understand stuff first. Romans 9 makes it clear that physical Israel is not the heirs.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And is it impossible, for at a time in the future, for God in his sovereign plan to turn all those of the flesh of Israel into spiritual Israel? That is pretty simple isn't it!


I know how you view zechariah, but if you accept the simple truth of what is plainly written, you can move on from there.

 

[michael56]

Oh, so some nations might not be "in a position to fight" ?
So much for "all the nations"
Squirm.

Try not to squirm too much

 

[michael56]

Not only does he think each of the countries are going for Jerusalem, he also believes that every man, woman and child alive on planet earth are going to gather against her.

Can you give me the quote the above is related to?

 

[MarcR]

The OP was banned because he discussing Zionism?

The OP was banned because he was rude, abusive, and heretical. It had nothing to do with his subject. There is no censorship here except for suppression oh heresy; which is quite proper.

 

[KJV1611]

Can you give me the quote the above is related to?

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

 

[michael56]

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Yes, now please show me my quote where I wrote that meant all men women and children...

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, now please show me my quote where I wrote that meant all men women and children...

The bible says all people... doesn't that mean all - men, women, and children? You will answer no and I will agree with you. All is symbolic of something. Just like "all the families" that you were quoting earlier is symbolic.

 

[michael56]

The bible says all people... doesn't that mean all - men, women, and children? You will answer no and I will agree with you. All is symbolic of something. Just like "all the families" that you were quoting earlier is symbolic.

Too many prophecies all saying the same thing I am afraid. And as I say, 2,500 years after they were written, hey ho, Israel becomes a nation again in the land.