Straw Man Walking
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E
How can this be so?
How can one repent and say they have faith in God that these things have caused a separation between them and God, and caused the God of the universe to come to earth as man, and ay the penalty for these things, and trust God to save them because they have committed these things, and continue to do them?
That would be like noah saying, Ok, God I trust you. I believe your going to flood the earth, and you have offered me a way of salvation, then one year goes by, and there is no ark.
It is not even a part of saving faith
IT IS A RESULT OF SAVING FAITH.
you have to get out of this adding works to faith business. That is where you are getting it wrong.
How can one repent and say they have faith in God that these things have caused a separation between them and God, and caused the God of the universe to come to earth as man, and ay the penalty for these things, and trust God to save them because they have committed these things, and continue to do them?
That would be like noah saying, Ok, God I trust you. I believe your going to flood the earth, and you have offered me a way of salvation, then one year goes by, and there is no ark.
It is not even a part of saving faith
IT IS A RESULT OF SAVING FAITH.
you have to get out of this adding works to faith business. That is where you are getting it wrong.
E
Yes it does. Because then it becomes earned, it is no longer grace (a favor of something not earned) it becomes a wage (a payment for work completed)
God said many years before Abraham offered Issac that he was already justified. James just proved that saving faith produces works, it does not sit idle. God was proven right by declaring Abraham righteous before he did one work. by the fact, abraham did the work God wanted him to do.
V
No, one does not. The thing is, in the love and gratitude we have for Christ, we will obey -- most of the time. There are times when we live in the flesh, and when we do, we sin. We confess and seek forgiveness when we do -- not for God, because He has already forgiven our sin through Christ's blood. Confession and forgiveness is for us, not Him.
That's the simpleton solution, not the realistic one. You choose to label those of us who believe in eternal security as endorsing a "license to sin." As Paul said of the same suggestion, "May it never be!"
"Freed from sin" doesn't mean we don't sin. It means we are freed from sin's consequence -- which is spiritual death. But most of us don't understand what Death really is.
Most of us think of death in terms of what happens to a physical body when it dies. It lays there. It cannot move. It cannot do anything. It is completely void of all power and ability. Death is, as far as this life goes, non-existence. The person is gone.
Now, all of that is true. But those traits of death are only applicable to the physical death of a physical body. Death is much more immeasurable than that.
Death is a condition. It is a state of being. It is a realm. Consequently, never think of death as non-existence. It is existence, but it is existence apart from God. It is conscious existence, able to function and move. Those who are dead can, and do, will and act, The spiritually dead -- the lost among us -- function. They operate. They perform. But they do it all in a realm other than that of Light. They do it in the realm of darkness. It is they whom Jesus speaks of in His conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.
This tells us that Death is quite functional. Death is actually quite dynamic and powerful. It is able to exist and move. And it has many characteristics. They are familiar to all of us: Fear, condemnation, a false knowledge of God. And more. These are all of the realm of death and darkness. They are very real, and they are all part of Death.
That is why our "old man" can be totally dead, yet exert such influence over us. The influence he exerts, through fear, condemnation, sin, and error, is death. Those influences are traits of death. Consequently, rather than indicate that our "old man" is still alive, all of the terrible traits of the "old man" are nothing more than proof that he is dead. The "old man" is simply acting the way a dead man acts.
We have had this backwards. We have thought that when our flesh won't behave, that our "old man" is alive. We think he has somehow been temporarily resurrected or something. So we say things like, "I must put my old man to death," etc. But this is not what is happening. When our flesh won't behave, it isn't the old man alive all over again.
No! He is once for all dead! Just as surely as Christ died. And he cannot be raised up out of the death of Christ! Rather, when the old man won't behave, or influences us with fear and darkness, it is his "deadness" manifesting itself. It is death residing in our old man, and it is simply acting like death acts.
Where does this leave us with regard to victory over him? Believe it or not, it leaves us with complete victory over him. How so? Because despite the fact that the old man of sin does not behave very well, and often makes it difficult for us to obey God, it is nevertheless a fact that he no longer has dominion over us! Through the resurrection of Christ, we have been given victory over him!
Here we see the essence of the change which has taken place within one who is born again. Before Christ, we were the "old man," completely bound to obey darkness and death. After Christ, we are a new creation. The "old man" cannot make us do anything. He no longer has dominion over us. We do not have to yield to him. We are free to walk with Jesus Christ.
But don't misunderstand. The old man is not changed. He is not redeemed. Neither is he gone from our presence. No. Not one place in Scripture does God ever say that the "old man" has been changed into a new creation. We are never told that God saves the old creation in Adam, and imparts to it the ability to obey God. But what does God say? He says that we are set free from the old man. In other words, through Christ, God severs the grip which the old man had upon us.
In Jesus Christ, we are born into a new realm, as a new creation. This is completely separate from the old realm, where the power of death and darkness can move. Therefore, the old man in Adam really has no power over us at all! He has no ability, as he did before Christ, to govern us.
Then why does he govern so many Christians? Because we don't believe the Truth just mentioned. Or, worse, don't want to believe it. We don't really believe the old man is dead in Christ. We don't believe his power is gone. And watch this very, very closely, reread it as many times as it takes for it to sink in: We believe he is alive, and that it is up to us to get victory over him. That is a lie directly from Satan. We believe this because the old man is still hanging around our necks. And we think that the influence which the realm of darkness exerts through him is evidence he is alive. It isn't. It is evidence of death. Just as it is evidenced in the lives of the unsaved around us!
Deception is the only power the enemy has over the Christian. Since the enemy has already been totally defeated by Christ, his only device is to deceive us into thinking he hasn't been defeated. But if we believe this lie, how can we possibly ever walk in Christ's victory? By definition, we will have denied it. We will spend our energy and faith trying to win a victory over an enemy who is already defeated!
There are many Truths in the Bible which are vital. But the foundation of Christianity is the most important. It states, clearly and unequivocally, that Jesus Christ has won all victory. He hasn't left any victories for us to win. That is the basis of all faith. It is the basis of walking in victory. Without this, we have no salvation by grace.
We cannot overcome.
We cannot grow.
We really have no access to God.
We must believe this Truth and grow to walk in it. Otherwise, we walk in death that we have been delivered out of by the blood of Christ.]
Like or not, Sarah, that's saying the exact same thing.
That's the simpleton solution, not the realistic one. You choose to label those of us who believe in eternal security as endorsing a "license to sin." As Paul said of the same suggestion, "May it never be!"
Romans 6, NASB
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
"Freed from sin" doesn't mean we don't sin. It means we are freed from sin's consequence -- which is spiritual death. But most of us don't understand what Death really is.
Most of us think of death in terms of what happens to a physical body when it dies. It lays there. It cannot move. It cannot do anything. It is completely void of all power and ability. Death is, as far as this life goes, non-existence. The person is gone.
Now, all of that is true. But those traits of death are only applicable to the physical death of a physical body. Death is much more immeasurable than that.
Death is a condition. It is a state of being. It is a realm. Consequently, never think of death as non-existence. It is existence, but it is existence apart from God. It is conscious existence, able to function and move. Those who are dead can, and do, will and act, The spiritually dead -- the lost among us -- function. They operate. They perform. But they do it all in a realm other than that of Light. They do it in the realm of darkness. It is they whom Jesus speaks of in His conversation with Nicodemus in John 3.
This tells us that Death is quite functional. Death is actually quite dynamic and powerful. It is able to exist and move. And it has many characteristics. They are familiar to all of us: Fear, condemnation, a false knowledge of God. And more. These are all of the realm of death and darkness. They are very real, and they are all part of Death.
That is why our "old man" can be totally dead, yet exert such influence over us. The influence he exerts, through fear, condemnation, sin, and error, is death. Those influences are traits of death. Consequently, rather than indicate that our "old man" is still alive, all of the terrible traits of the "old man" are nothing more than proof that he is dead. The "old man" is simply acting the way a dead man acts.
We have had this backwards. We have thought that when our flesh won't behave, that our "old man" is alive. We think he has somehow been temporarily resurrected or something. So we say things like, "I must put my old man to death," etc. But this is not what is happening. When our flesh won't behave, it isn't the old man alive all over again.
No! He is once for all dead! Just as surely as Christ died. And he cannot be raised up out of the death of Christ! Rather, when the old man won't behave, or influences us with fear and darkness, it is his "deadness" manifesting itself. It is death residing in our old man, and it is simply acting like death acts.
Where does this leave us with regard to victory over him? Believe it or not, it leaves us with complete victory over him. How so? Because despite the fact that the old man of sin does not behave very well, and often makes it difficult for us to obey God, it is nevertheless a fact that he no longer has dominion over us! Through the resurrection of Christ, we have been given victory over him!
Romans 6, NASB
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Here we see the essence of the change which has taken place within one who is born again. Before Christ, we were the "old man," completely bound to obey darkness and death. After Christ, we are a new creation. The "old man" cannot make us do anything. He no longer has dominion over us. We do not have to yield to him. We are free to walk with Jesus Christ.
But don't misunderstand. The old man is not changed. He is not redeemed. Neither is he gone from our presence. No. Not one place in Scripture does God ever say that the "old man" has been changed into a new creation. We are never told that God saves the old creation in Adam, and imparts to it the ability to obey God. But what does God say? He says that we are set free from the old man. In other words, through Christ, God severs the grip which the old man had upon us.
In Jesus Christ, we are born into a new realm, as a new creation. This is completely separate from the old realm, where the power of death and darkness can move. Therefore, the old man in Adam really has no power over us at all! He has no ability, as he did before Christ, to govern us.
Then why does he govern so many Christians? Because we don't believe the Truth just mentioned. Or, worse, don't want to believe it. We don't really believe the old man is dead in Christ. We don't believe his power is gone. And watch this very, very closely, reread it as many times as it takes for it to sink in: We believe he is alive, and that it is up to us to get victory over him. That is a lie directly from Satan. We believe this because the old man is still hanging around our necks. And we think that the influence which the realm of darkness exerts through him is evidence he is alive. It isn't. It is evidence of death. Just as it is evidenced in the lives of the unsaved around us!
Deception is the only power the enemy has over the Christian. Since the enemy has already been totally defeated by Christ, his only device is to deceive us into thinking he hasn't been defeated. But if we believe this lie, how can we possibly ever walk in Christ's victory? By definition, we will have denied it. We will spend our energy and faith trying to win a victory over an enemy who is already defeated!
There are many Truths in the Bible which are vital. But the foundation of Christianity is the most important. It states, clearly and unequivocally, that Jesus Christ has won all victory. He hasn't left any victories for us to win. That is the basis of all faith. It is the basis of walking in victory. Without this, we have no salvation by grace.
We cannot overcome.
We cannot grow.
We really have no access to God.
We must believe this Truth and grow to walk in it. Otherwise, we walk in death that we have been delivered out of by the blood of Christ.]
Like or not, Sarah, that's saying the exact same thing.
E
straw man argument. why? Because you KNOW we do not teach that a person can claim to have faith. continue to live in sin, and expect to be saved in the end.
This is getting ridiculous sarah.
It is obvious you NEVER read a thing a person says, I can think of nothing other than all you want to do is argue, why do you not go pick someone else to argue with?
This is getting ridiculous sarah.
It is obvious you NEVER read a thing a person says, I can think of nothing other than all you want to do is argue, why do you not go pick someone else to argue with?
So in other words you are saying one WILL OBEY GOD if one has saving faith. If one does not show the evidence that their faith is real saving faith,then how can one be saved? There is a HUGE difference between between being declared righteous by faith or works and BEING JUSTIFIED by our works. NO ONE will be declared righteous by their works,that is by faith and faith alone. What we do either proves that we do believe or do not believe. If one refuses to do what God told us to do then it shows that one does NOT really believe.
Does not doing any of those things in and of itself save anyone? Of course not. But to not do those things are COMMANDS by God not to do those things. But it seems as if you are saying that if one obeys God's commands they are trying to earn their salvation,and any time someone mentions obedience to the other commands (outside of the two) you and your buddies accuse them of trying to be declared RIGHTEOUS BY THEIR WORKS.
using noah as an example of man of faith, but ware, is god in this example, now the boat/ark was huge.
however, the world population was wiped out, the flood never started, till the ark was built.
is this an example of how big is god. what purpose can be learned , egypt, jonah , proves god ,can make man stubborn.
yet will lead to the result god required/ intended, yet men had to walk in, what was spoken or told to them to do by god. even when the going got tough. yet the progression of man in the old testament leads to the new testament.
yet if all fall short, how and when can we claim , we are now walking correctly, when even here, talks about the whole life of these old testament men. not just a small part of there life. not just a small letter to a church/churches.
yet ,god was with them, every step of the way. even when they though all hope was lost.
however, the world population was wiped out, the flood never started, till the ark was built.
is this an example of how big is god. what purpose can be learned , egypt, jonah , proves god ,can make man stubborn.
yet will lead to the result god required/ intended, yet men had to walk in, what was spoken or told to them to do by god. even when the going got tough. yet the progression of man in the old testament leads to the new testament.
yet if all fall short, how and when can we claim , we are now walking correctly, when even here, talks about the whole life of these old testament men. not just a small part of there life. not just a small letter to a church/churches.
yet ,god was with them, every step of the way. even when they though all hope was lost.
E
Of course this is what I have been saying from day 1.
Of course, God does not need to to prove my faith is real. He knows my heart, and knows my true reasoning. So he would never save me if he knew my faith was not real now would he?
Once again you refuse to listen.
I have said over and over, If one claims works MUST be done in order to GAIN salvation, or NOT Lose salvation. Then they are preaching works.
Do you believe one can LOSE Salvation? Of course you do, we have been through this. Although you just admitted, if one has TRUE faith they will have works.
so how could they possibly lose salvation, if they WILL do works since they had TRUE faith.
I do not believe that can LOSE their salvation but I sure do believe that one can THROW their salvation away. One sure can ash can their faith and their salvation. Again you leave out that one is DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY FAITH,if one loses,destroys or walks from that faith that person CAN NOT nor will be declared righteous. No one WILL BE SAVED IN UNBELIEF. If one goes into unbelief they WILL NOT be saved. NO ONE IS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS IN UNBELIEF. It's the part you leave out. All the warnings are pointing to things that DESTROY our faith.
I believe that the life of one who is truly saved will be characterized by a lifestyle of obedience to the teachings of Jesus.
I believe that as a believer follows the leading of the Holy Spirit; The Holy Spirit works in us both the desire and the ability to obey.
I believe that the true believer neither takes nor desires credit for his / her obedience. It is not what he / she does; but what the Holy Spirit does in him / her.
The primary difference between the 2 positions is:
WHO GETS THE CREDIT AND THE PRAISE?
I believe that as a believer follows the leading of the Holy Spirit; The Holy Spirit works in us both the desire and the ability to obey.
I believe that the true believer neither takes nor desires credit for his / her obedience. It is not what he / she does; but what the Holy Spirit does in him / her.
The primary difference between the 2 positions is:
WHO GETS THE CREDIT AND THE PRAISE?
E
Yet you have never told me how a person with TRUE saving faith in a God who will never let them down. always has their best interests at heart. and treats them as dear children would ever lose faith? To me, your humanising god. Humans fail us, Humans take from us, They do not always have our best interests at heart. So I understand how we can lose faith in a person but God?
Not to mention. Is God so naive, and so blind that even if a person could lose faith, that he would not know it before he even saved them?
My God knows everything, What I do 20 years from now if I am still alive, he knows. My grandchild was just born. My God knows everything he will ever do from today until the day he dies, he will never do anythign that will suprise God, else God is not God
You do remember Solomon? The king that God gave GODLY WISDOM? The same king that built the temple and saw that same temple filled with God's glory. The same king that God told him this
1 Kings 3
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, [SUP]12 [/SUP]I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for—both wealth and honor—so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And if you walk in obedience to me and keep my decrees and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then Solomon awoke—and he realized it had been a dream.
So did Solomon have faith or not? And what happened between then and the following
1 Kings 11
[h=3]Solomon’s Wives
[/h]11 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They were from nations about which the Lord had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.” Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. [SUP]3 [/SUP]He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. [SUP]4[/SUP]As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. [SUP]5 [/SUP]He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. [SUP]6 [/SUP]So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.
[SUP]9[/SUP]The Lord became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Although he had forbidden Solomon to follow other gods, Solomon did not keep the Lord’s command. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So the Lord said to Solomon, “Since this is your attitude and you have not kept my covenant and my decrees, which I commanded you, I will most certainly tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your subordinates. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime. I will tear it out of the hand of your son. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Yet I will not tear the whole kingdom from him, but will give him one tribe for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem, which I have chosen.”
Very plainly scripture says that Solomon's heart had TURNED AWAY from the Lord. And no where can you find anything that says Solomon ever repented and turned BACK to the Lord.