Hebrews 6:1-6

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again what you posted does not say I told you you have to go by there writings, so again your point is unproven and still shown to be false allegations.....

You should never have used them to begin with.

You used them to prove your right. THAT WHERE YOU ERRED!

And now you will not admit you did that.

Thus you have destroyed any ability for anyone to think you are trustworthy.

 

[kennethcadwell]

They called him "old camel knees" because he spent so much time in prayer.

Yes that is true, because he was not a believer in Jesus during His earthly ministry.
It was not tell after the Lord's resurrection and appearing to him that he realized his mistake of unbelief, and from there he became a strong Apostle and leader of the church. He gave one of the most convicting books in the bible on how believers in Christ can not act. One of which is when he said if a person can not bridle their tongue (speak harshly to others) that one's religion is worthless.....

 

[Elin]

Heb 6:6 "If they shall fall away...."

Gal 5:4 "...ye are fallen from grace."

Acts 1:25 ".... from which Judas by transgression fell."

Lk 8:13 "..... which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

1 Cor 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

1 Tim 3:6,7 "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride hefall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

James 5:12 ".... but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

2 Pet 2:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall neverfall:"

2 Pet 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."


Logically, for one to fall out of a tree, he must first climb up and be in that tree to fall from it. Likewise for a Christian to fall implies he must be in a saved position to fall from it......falling from a saved position into one of condemnation.
One that was always fallen cannot fall.

All explained in 1Jn 2:19. . .one can fall out of counterfeit faith, which has no root of rebirth (Lk 8:13).

 

[john832]

All explained in 1Jn 2:19. . .one can fall out of counterfeit faith, which has no root of rebirth (Lk 8:13).

You can't fall away from the faith if you are not in the faith. A counterfeit faith is not the faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

Once again what you posted does not say I told you you have to go by there writings, so again your point is unproven and still shown to be false allegations.....

This is a prime reason why you are blind.....go back and read one place where I said you said that I should go by them.....every post I have made has been under the light of the fact that THEY ARE NOT INSPIRED and DID NOT MAKE THE CANON and ARE NOT A VALID source of TRUTH........

You really should start paying attention.......and owning up to things you imply and or say.....!

 

[oldhermit]

Well I think we have seen before your exegesis has some flaws in some areas. Context of the whole passage has to be taken into question. If you fail to do that, Your supposed exegesis will come up lacking, because it is not complete.

You assume I have not done this because it does not agree with your view of this text.

1. There does not have to be an if in the statement.
2. Active tense means that if someone is in a fallen state now. they could not be renewed (see how the word IF fits the context)
3. It never say they had fallen away, or in a fallen away state, it was not a statement of fact, but a statement of a possibility.

EG, Do you not understand what an aorist tense participle means? It means that they had at some point in the past fallen away and that they continue in that state. These had fallen away and they remain fallen.

again the rest of the passage does not support a view that people could fall away. In order for your supposed exegesis to stand, the rest of the passage would have to support your stance.

What do you suppose the writer meant in verse eight when he said "it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." This parabolic illustration is directed to these who had fallen away and their fate is pronounced rather decisively. As for the rest of the chapter, the writer redirects his attention in verse nine from those who had fallen away to those who had not. Their fate is also pronounced in verse fourteen “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can't fall away from the faith if you are not in the faith. A counterfeit faith is not the faith.

thats funny, James called a dead faith faith.. It was dead all the same, but he still called it faith.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You should never have used them to begin with.

You used them to prove your right. THAT WHERE YOU ERRED!

And now you will not admit you did that.

Thus you have destroyed any ability for anyone to think you are trustworthy.

No what you don't like is that a Holy Spirit lead Apostle Barnabas who was entrusted by God with the gospel teachings does not support your man made doctrine you follow.

I admit I go by the writings of Holy Spirit lead men who were entrusted to give the gospel, which is why I go by the bible for it was written by men who were Holy Spirit lead (inspired).

So once again what makes the words of the Holy Spirit more valid then other words from the Holy Spirit? Nothing they are all valid because it all comes from God...

I do not deny the truth that comes from the Holy Spirit !!!


" But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, "

 

[DesiredHaven]

The universalism gets confused with its true meaning because some turn away from it because that is also what the term catholic means. However the Catholic church went away from the true meaning and for years stated it that anybody who is not in the Catholic church has salvation.
You don't have to be in every doctrine to know the universal scope of the Church, and you are wise not to be.

The Holy Spirit of God will lead us to others that speak His truth, and that is the main thing I am debating with others on right now. They want to call me a false teacher or in men's doctrines by speaking of such, they can go ahead but even in the bible it shows many examples of those sent by God to others for understanding.

The Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth, if falls on us to choose to listen.......................

That isnt the doctrine I am talking about when I speak of universalsim, I come from a catholic family, I know how the word universal is used by them, it was not in this same way.


That was just one example, and thats not the same as you are talking about.

Theres various church doctrines argued among christian on forums and we have all (pretty much) seen them quoted at one time of the next. I am having a hard time following this thread and what the real issue is.

I need to back myself out of here, because I get that same yucky feeling I did when lingering over catholicy arguments.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You assume I have not done this because it does not agree with your view of this text.


EG, Do you not understand what an aorist tense participle means? It means that they had at some point in the past fallen away and that they continue in that state. These had fallen away and they remain fallen.

You mean like the brother who sinned against me in luke 14.

Yes I do know what the aorist tense means, I also know it is used in many places as an "if" statement that may or may not be true (as I showed in like 17)

What do you suppose the writer meant in verse eight when he said "it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." This parabolic illustration is directed to these who had fallen away and their fate is pronounced rather decisively. As for the rest of the chapter, the writer redirects his attention in verse none from those who had fallen away to those who had not. Their fate is also pronounced in verse fourteen “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.”

i think it means as paul said, our works will be tried, and even if all ouw work is burned (wood hay straw) he himself will still be saved, as though escaping through the fire (imagine a man whose house is on fire, and he runs through the flame to get out of the house naked He gets out naked, but he is still saved)

and that would be supported by the rest of hebrews 6.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is a prime reason why you are blind.....go back and read one place where I said you said that I should go by them.....every post I have made has been under the light of the fact that THEY ARE NOT INSPIRED and DID NOT MAKE THE CANON and ARE NOT A VALID source of TRUTH........

You really should start paying attention.......and owning up to things you imply and or say.....!

That is what E.G. was saying that you agreed with him on, so therefore your pushing of trying to have me admit I was wrong when I wasn't.

You don't like the writings of a Holy Spirit lead Apostle Barnabas, and the writings of a Holy Spirit lead understudy of the Apostle John in Polycarp then that is fine. It is your choice to do so, but the Holy Spirit guided me to those as well as others so that I was not caught up in these personal man made doctrines of men that use a private interpretation of the scriptures. Who better to give you all truth then the Holy Spirit Himself, as the bible says He will !!!

 

[notuptome]

You can't fall away from the faith if you are not in the faith. A counterfeit faith is not the faith.

Like you would know faith. Faith in oneself is not the faith that God gives.

Those who are saved by grace cannot doubt their faith. Their faith is the faith of Christ imputed to them by God. Faith that has it's genesis in Gods word and quickened by Gods Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is a prime reason why you are blind.....go back and read one place where I said you said that I should go by them.....every post I have made has been under the light of the fact that THEY ARE NOT INSPIRED and DID NOT MAKE THE CANON and ARE NOT A VALID source of TRUTH........

You really should start paying attention.......and owning up to things you imply and or say.....!

And where did I mention the ones who put the bible canon together ???

I said those who wrote the scriptures, and who were Holy Spirit lead Apostles writings are inspired by God. Because the Holy Spirit guided them in all truth and what to write, so if the other Holy Spirit lead Apostles writings are valid so is the other Holy Spirit lead Apostles writings. You can not claim the Holy Spirit is valid here but not there, it just does not work that way. For once again Christ can not deny Himself or His own teachings !!!

 

[john832]

Like you would know faith. Faith in oneself is not the faith that God gives.

Those who are saved by grace cannot doubt their faith. Their faith is the faith of Christ imputed to them by God. Faith that has it's genesis in Gods word and quickened by Gods Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well thank you.

 

[Elin]

Yes rebuked by his treatment of the Gentiles,
not rebuked for giving false teachings of the word.

Peter's conduct was hypocritical, indicating both that Christians were not under the law before the Judaizers arrived, and also that they were under the law after the Judaizers arrived.

That is false teaching.

 

[MarcR]

James the brother of Jesus was an Apostle also, just because it does not clearly say that in the bible does not mean he was not. There are other writings in the early church that say he was, and the Lord did appear to him after the resurrection. So if you are one of them that believes he had to be personally sent out by the Lord to be an apostle, which the bible shows no such requirement for an apostle, then Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15 he was.
Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

Jesus appeared to more than 500 believers at one time; and that does not make any of them apostles.

You seem to subscribe to the Roman Catholic heresy of apostolic succession; and you are entitled to that; but don't try to foist it on us.


Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

it has been said by other uninspired writers that necessity is the mother of invention. You can't make inferences from Scripture and call them Scripture. On second thought, you just did; but that doesn't make it good practice.

 

[notuptome]

No what you don't like is that a Holy Spirit lead Apostle Barnabas who was entrusted by God with the gospel teachings does not support your man made doctrine you follow.

I admit I go by the writings of Holy Spirit lead men who were entrusted to give the gospel, which is why I go by the bible for it was written by men who were Holy Spirit lead (inspired).

So once again what makes the words of the Holy Spirit more valid then other words from the Holy Spirit? Nothing they are all valid because it all comes from God...

I do not deny the truth that comes from the Holy Spirit !!!


" But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, "

They went out from us because they were not of us. Pretenders who profess that which they do not possess. Tares in the wheat.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Elin]

The warning is about Christians falling away and becoming lost by returning back to the OT law and Judaism.

If eternal security were true, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to fall away, IMPOSSIBLE for them to return back to the OT law/Judaism becoming lost and the warnings and admonishments are non-sense.

You cannot say if they leave they were "and never in Christ" for
it has been shown they were Christians.

No, it was shown only that they were professing Christians participating in the church body--tares.

Their falling away shows their profession was false, and their faith was counterfeit.

They didn't fall from true faith, they fell from counterfeit faith, and their falling proved their
faith was counterfeit (1Jn 2:19).

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jesus appeared to more than 500 believers at one time; and that does not make any of them apostles.

You seem to subscribe to the Roman Catholic heresy of apostolic succession; and you are entitled to that; but don't try to foist it on us.


Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

it has been said by other uninspired writers that necessity is the mother of invention. You can't make inferences from Scripture and call them Scripture. On second thought, you just did; but that doesn't make it good practice.

I am not trying to force anything on anybody as I do not believe in the apostolic succession as the Catholic church does.

The bible clearly identifies more then 13 people as Apostles, and you even though we have shown you clear scriptures that show that you still seem to deny them. Even Apostle Paul says that one of the positions that will continue to be appointed in the church will be called apostles. I do not agree that only they have the right to forgive sins as the catholic church does, as that command was give to all of us to forgive others.
The true remission comes from the Lord, but the forgiveness we are commanded is for love and emotional healing.

So what the Holy Spirit says through an Apostle is not valid ????

 

[Elin]

Here's one for a start...

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Here's another...

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

This one infers...

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There were more than 12 and we really don't know how many. Just because one is not named in scripture, does not mean that one was not an apostle but the above scripture shows at least 14 and probably 16.

That's not what "of note among the apostles" means.