Hebrews 6:1-6

[kennethcadwell]

I see that KENNY is doing the twist again....how many times did he say the HOLY SPIRIT will guide you to the truth including extra biblical sources.......now it appears that it not the case.....it is impossible to reason with someone who will say one thing and deny and or change what they said when they get called on it.......IMPOSSIBLE for sure......!

That is you twisting it because I did say the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us in all truth, and nowhere did i back out of that.

Once again you are only reading part of what I said and not all of it by your understanding here.
If you do not believe the Holy Spirit will guide a person to other people for learning or understanding then you are coming back with a flawed debate. Even Apostles Timothy, Luke, Mark, Barnabas, and Silvanaus were shown to be understudies of the original 11, and mainly Paul and Peter at that.

God through His Holy Spirit will guide us anywhere He needs us to go for His knowledge.
It then falls on you to accept His guidance and teaching or not, it becomes your choice to accept what you have been shown. For God does not force His ways on us, and wants us to come to Him and be obedient out of love for Him. God told us to choose eternal life or spiritual death.

It is impossible to reason with another who disregards how a Holy Spirit will and does work in and through others.
For it is one thing to say you believe, but it is another to show that belief is true and how one walks, talks, and acts shows that because it comes from the Holy Spirit who changes a person from within that shows without......

So once again I did not deny or change what I said, as the accusation was made that I said you had to go by those writings outside the bible. I never said no such thing, as I just said lets look at quotes from the early church leaders on what they taught. They gave clear quotes no such doctrine was taught, that then falls on your choice to choose to agree with what they said or not agree. And I added just remember Barnabas was a true Apostle, and Polycarp was taught by Apostle John himself. Two Holy Spirit lead Apostles who learned and carried on the true teachings of Christ......

Choose to agree or choose not to that is your choice....I choose to agree with the Holy Spirit !!!

 

[DesiredHaven]

Peter was not arguing about circumcision. he was separating himself from the gentile Christians because they ate unclean food. and were not seen as ritually clean

I didnt say he was, Peter drew back fearing the circumcision, even as scripture says, fear of man brings a snare, and the offense of the cross pertains to the "yet preaching circumcision" (and being mindful of the things of men) in contrast to God, even where Jesus points out Satan (in Peters speaking) in respects the offense to Christ.

They of the circumcision are the center, as is Peters drawing back for his fear of them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Search by the Holy Spirits guidance and choosing to believe what you read is two separate things.

The Holy Spirit can show you personally or by another His truth all day long, but if you still choose to deny what was shown to you that is on you. God does not force anybody to obey His will, He wants us out of love to choose to obey Him.

I will not admit to a false allegation you have made, so keep up your belittling if you choose.............

well then you are deemed a liar. and the whole chatroom just witnessed it.

Take your legalism, and excusing sin, and go someplace else with you. Your just proved yourself a fraud!

 

[john832]

Cite them!

Here's one for a start...

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Here's another...

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

This one infers...

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There were more than 12 and we really don't know how many. Just because one is not named in scripture, does not mean that one was not an apostle but the above scripture shows at least 14 and probably 16.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Heb 6:6 "If they shall fall away...."

Gal 5:4 "...ye are fallen from grace."

Acts 1:25 ".... from which Judas by transgression fell."

Lk 8:13 "..... which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

1 Cor 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

1 Tim 3:6,7 "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride hefall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

James 5:12 ".... but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

2 Pet 2:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall neverfall:"

2 Pet 3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

Christians certainly can fall away.


Where did he say this???



Heb 6:7,8 "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

The Hebrew writer was just talking about Christians that fall, v6. To drive that point home, he makes an analogy to the fact men burn fields that are grown over and useless. If those Jewish Christians allow themselves to become grwon over, useless, unproductive they too will be burned. Near to being cursed is those Jewish Christians had not yet reached that point,

Where did God make an oath to Abraham (or us today) that Abraham would be saved UNconditianlly no matter what Abraham did, whether Abraham obeyed or disobeyed God?

Yep. Just like ken, your to stuck in your own pride to see your legalism.

God made an oath to abraham, The author of hebrews said it not me.

You did not respond to ANY of the hope answers. of course I would not expect you to. You have no hope. the only hope you have is you yourself do not fall away.

Well guess what my friend, that is no hope at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here's one for a start...

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Here's another...

Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

This one infers...

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

There were more than 12 and we really don't know how many. Just because one is not named in scripture, does not mean that one was not an apostle but the above scripture shows at least 14 and probably 16.

So, if we have a book written in one of their names.

1. Should we consider it equal with scripture
2. Should we consider it written by the, and not someone else who used their name?
3. Should we consider it to be truth from God? Especially since for some reason, God did not feel it was worthy to include it in his word.

I think that is the question we are all trying to ask, since we get their books shoved down our throats by people who will not even admit they are doing that

 

[kennethcadwell]

NOTE posts 28, 29, 40, 41, 53, 54 and the extra biblical sources that he trusts into and points to so as to prove his theology.....I know there is more, but I figured these would be enough.....The Holy Spirit points to the inspired word of God...not some men who did not make the cannon of scriptures.....!

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

dude, You told us to search what the early church fathers said.

Your denying your own example. and proving how decieved you are and unwilling to admit when you have been proven wrong.

Admit you made a mistake. how hard is that?

Oh thats right, it is just a small sin, so it is not major (rolls eyes)

Once again where are the words that I said you had to go by them, or that you have to believe in them ???


I just showed quotes from what the early church taught, and the choice to agree or disagree with those is on you. I never once said you had to go by them, but the same consideration should be give to them as is given to the rest of the Apostles. If you want to discredit a few that were chosen by God you might as well discredit them all.
Remember the bible says Christ can not deny Himself, so how can the Holy Spirit of God deny His own teachings of His truth? He can not !!!

 

[valiant]

Cite them!

Barnabas 1 Cor 9.5-6; acts 14.14; James the Lords brother gal 1.19; Matthias acts 1.25-26.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I said thats what I heard but I surely dont know, because I dont have my nose in every doctrine out there, there were a few debates on some really weird and crazy stuff over at this other board.

I wouldnt touch their doctrines after some of those conversations.

I only prefer men who speak the scriptures and who speak less from themselves, theres just less twisting of things that way and really easy to correct by rehandling the scriptures when they are off.

The universalism gets confused with its true meaning because some turn away from it because that is also what the term catholic means. However the Catholic church went away from the true meaning and for years stated it that anybody who is not in the Catholic church has salvation.
You don't have to be in every doctrine to know the universal scope of the Church, and you are wise not to be.

The Holy Spirit of God will lead us to others that speak His truth, and that is the main thing I am debating with others on right now. They want to call me a false teacher or in men's doctrines by speaking of such, they can go ahead but even in the bible it shows many examples of those sent by God to others for understanding.

The Holy Spirit will guide us in all truth, if falls on us to choose to listen.......................

 

[oldhermit]

This is a faulty view

It does not say they can fall away, it says if they could fall away, the impossible act is to renew to repentance.

EG, this is not what this text says. I covered this in the exegesis. "The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away." There is no IF in verse six. παραπεσόντας is aorist, active, accusative. The writer is presenting a statement of fact that some had indeed fallen away. It is impossible to fall from a position one has never occupied. If you believe these were never saved then from what had they fallen?

 

[MarcR]

Yes rebuked by his treatment of the Gentiles, not rebuked for giving false teachings of the word.
And even if you go to the book of Galatians, Peter was not rebuked by Paul for giving false teaching. He was rebuked by Paul for letting false teachers sneak in and teach a false gospel to the Galatians.

Second James was an Apostle, and you left off the Apostle Jude's epistle.
You can try and discredit a persons stance as an apostle all you want by saying they were just missionaries, but the word of God will not let you. As it says the Lord appointed 70 others (Luke 10:1), Apostle Paul shows there was more then 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 15:4-8), and the bible clearly calls others such as Barnabas, Timothy, and Silvanus as apostles.

There has been a resounding lie throughout the past few years of teaching only 11 Apostles + Paul, but that is clearly refuted by many scriptures...............

Second James was an Apostle, and you left off the Apostle Jude's epistle.

You are correct that I neglected Jude That was hasty and careless of me!

Second James was an Apostle, If James was the brother of Jude, he was an appostle. The brother of John was martyred early. and James, the brother of Jesus was a leader of the Jerusalem church; but NOT an apostle.

1 Co 15:7-9
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
KJV

After that, he was seen of James; This is James the brother of John who was martyred early.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Cite them!

Here is a couple..............

Acts 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out


1 Thessalonians 1:1
Paul, and Silvanus, and Timothy, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2:4) but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who examines our hearts.

(2:6) nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.

 

[dcontroversal]

Once again where are the words that I said you had to go by them, or that you have to believe in them ???


I just showed quotes from what the early church taught, and the choice to agree or disagree with those is on you. I never once said you had to go by them, but the same consideration should be give to them as is given to the rest of the Apostles. If you want to discredit a few that were chosen by God you might as well discredit them all.
Remember the bible says Christ can not deny Himself, so how can the Holy Spirit of God deny His own teachings of His truth? He can not !!!

Your words belie your real belief....see if you can read this.....THEY WERE NOT INSPIRED AND DID NOT MAKE THE CANON AND ARE NOT A VALID SOURCE OF TRUTH.

YOUR WORDS.....

I do not trust in them, I trust that the truth by which the Holy Spirit spoke through them........

You are thinking of the Catholics who came in the 3rd and 4th century, not Barnabas and Polycarp who were directly associated with the original 11 Apostles. If you want to deny what these two said as truth then you have to deny what the original 11 said as truth, because they were Holy Spirit lead into all truth. I know it has been bread into our minds now days to discount these writings just because they are not in the bible, but the writings of Barnabas and Polycarp are just as valid as the original 11 or else you would be saying Paul and John were false teachers.

and Barnabas is one of them. The Lord said the Holy Spirit will guide them and us in all truth, so if they lied then you say the Holy Spirit lied. That is a dangerous thing to get into you cancel out the writings of Holy Spirit lead people clearly identified as an apostle in the bible...


You are one of about 4 on here who take the cake for sure!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, this is not what this text says. I covered this in the exegesis.

Well I think we have seen before your exegesis has some flaws in some areas. Context of the whole passage has to be taken into question. If you fail to do that, Your supposed exegesis will come up lacking, because it is not complete.

"The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away." There is no IF in verse six. παραπεσόντας is aorist, active, accusative. The writer is presenting a statement of fact that some had indeed fallen away. It is impossible to fall from a position one has never occupied. If you believe these were never saved then from what had they fallen?

1. There does not have to be an if in the statement.
2. Active tense means that if someone is in a fallen state now. they could not be renewed (see how the word IF fits the context)
3. It never say they had fallen away, or in a fallen away state, it was not a statement of fact, but a statement of a possibility.

again the rest of the passage does not support a view that people could fall away. In order for your supposed exegesis to stand, the rest of the passage would have to support your stance.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Second James was an Apostle, and you left off the Apostle Jude's epistle.

You are correct that I neglected Jude That was hasty and careless of me!

Second James was an Apostle, If James was the brother of Jude, he was an appostle. The brother of John was martyred early. and James, the brother of Jesus was a leader of the Jerusalem church; but NOT an apostle.

1 Co 15:7-9
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
KJV

After that, he was seen of James; This is James the brother of John who was martyred early.

James the brother of Jesus was an Apostle also, just because it does not clearly say that in the bible does not mean he was not. There are other writings in the early church that say he was, and the Lord did appear to him after the resurrection. So if you are one of them that believes he had to be personally sent out by the Lord to be an apostle, which the bible shows no such requirement for an apostle, then Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15 he was.
Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your words belie your real belief....see if you can read this.....THEY WERE NOT INSPIRED AND DID NOT MAKE THE CANON AND ARE NOT A VALID SOURCE OF TRUTH.

YOUR WORDS.....

I do not trust in them, I trust that the truth by which the Holy Spirit spoke through them........

You are thinking of the Catholics who came in the 3rd and 4th century, not Barnabas and Polycarp who were directly associated with the original 11 Apostles. If you want to deny what these two said as truth then you have to deny what the original 11 said as truth, because they were Holy Spirit lead into all truth. I know it has been bread into our minds now days to discount these writings just because they are not in the bible, but the writings of Barnabas and Polycarp are just as valid as the original 11 or else you would be saying Paul and John were false teachers.

and Barnabas is one of them. The Lord said the Holy Spirit will guide them and us in all truth, so if they lied then you say the Holy Spirit lied. That is a dangerous thing to get into you cancel out the writings of Holy Spirit lead people clearly identified as an apostle in the bible...


You are one of about 4 on here who take the cake for sure!

Once again what you posted does not say I told you you have to go by there writings, so again your point is unproven and still shown to be false allegations.....

 

[john832]

James the brother of Jesus was an Apostle also, just because it does not clearly say that in the bible does not mean he was not. There are other writings in the early church that say he was, and the Lord did appear to him after the resurrection. So if you are one of them that believes he had to be personally sent out by the Lord to be an apostle, which the bible shows no such requirement for an apostle, then Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15 he was.
Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

They called him "old camel knees" because he spent so much time in prayer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well I think we have seen before your exegesis has some flaws in some areas. Context of the whole passage has to be taken into question. If you fail to do that, Your supposed exegesis will come up lacking, because it is not complete.



1. There does not have to be an if in the statement.
2. Active tense means that if someone is in a fallen state now. they could not be renewed (see how the word IF fits the context)
3. It never say they had fallen away, or in a fallen away state, it was not a statement of fact, but a statement of a possibility.

again the rest of the passage does not support a view that people could fall away. In order for your supposed exegesis to stand, the rest of the passage would have to support your stance.

Just to add,

Same type of verb is used in Like 17:4

If your brother sins agains you.

Sins is also aorist, active subjunctive,

It does not mean your brother has sinned against you. It means there is a possibility your brother has sinned against you. Hence the word IF, even though the word IF is not in the greek.

So again, Your exegesis is flawed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James the brother of Jesus was an Apostle also, just because it does not clearly say that in the bible does not mean he was not. There are other writings in the early church that say he was, and the Lord did appear to him after the resurrection. So if you are one of them that believes he had to be personally sent out by the Lord to be an apostle, which the bible shows no such requirement for an apostle, then Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15 he was.
Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

There he goes taking us to things outside the word of God to prove his point again. Since the word of God itself does not validate his theory (it does not call james an apostle)

Lets see him lie once again and say he is not using outside sources.

 

[MarcR]

James the brother of Jesus was an Apostle also, just because it does not clearly say that in the bible does not mean he was not. There are other writings in the early church that say he was, and the Lord did appear to him after the resurrection. So if you are one of them that believes he had to be personally sent out by the Lord to be an apostle, which the bible shows no such requirement for an apostle, then Apostle Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 15 he was.
Notice the second part of verse 7 also as it says all of the Apostles, meaning the rest of the apostles because He already appeared to the main 12 in verse 5....So all the apostles in verse 7 is not referring to the main 12...

just because it does not clearly say that in the bible does not mean he was not Are you suggesting that you saying he was carries more weight than Scripture not saying he was?

There are other writings in the early church that say he was I do not recognize other writings in the early church as any more authoritative than Jamieson, Faucet, and Brown; or Albert Barnes; and many much less so.