Who was the sacrifice of Christ offered to, God or man?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F

forsha

Guest
#41
#41
Cassian said:
I was not offered to man.

The atonement was between two parties, God and Christ. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:24. God was reconciling the world to Himself through Christ. It was the world, all things that were given to Christ. Col 1:20 to redeem. Christ came to defeat the works of the devil, death, sin and Satan himself. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8.

The only thing that is offered to man is union with Christ with the promise of eternal life if we are faithful, if we endure, if we abide in Him.

Man has absolutely nothing to do with the atonement.
Click to expand...
If Jesus's sacrifice was to reconcile everything in the world back to God, does not make sense in the fact Jesus has warned us of all of the bad things in the world, such as, 1 John 2:15-17, Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but of the world. And the world passeth away (not reconciled), and the lust thereof; but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. I think you have been misinformed about Jesus's work on the cross was to reconcile the things in the world, the sacrifice was only for those that God gave him.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#42
#42
Cassian said:
I was not offered to man.

The atonement was between two parties, God and Christ. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:24. God was reconciling the world to Himself through Christ. It was the world, all things that were given to Christ. Col 1:20 to redeem. Christ came to defeat the works of the devil, death, sin and Satan himself. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8.

The only thing that is offered to man is union with Christ with the promise of eternal life if we are faithful, if we endure, if we abide in Him.

Man has absolutely nothing to do with the atonement.
Click to expand...
If you believe that man has nothing to do with atonement, and you believe that man has to be faithful, and endure before he is covered under the atonement, then that would require man to do something before Christ could atone for his sins.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#43
#43
MarcR said:
Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
KJV

There is his first precept. As for the rest I wouldn't word my belief quite the same way; but I'm not that far from his position.
Click to expand...
John 1:29 is one of those scriptures listed under the Greek interpretation of Thayer where the word "world" means believers only.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#44
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#44
forsha said:
John 1:29 is one of those scriptures listed under the Greek interpretation of Thayer where the word "world" means believers only.
Click to expand...
No offence but...do you study the Book of Thayer or the Bible......just because Thayer interprets something a particular way does not necessarily make it right......surly you know this.......??
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#45
#45
dcontroversal said:
No offence but...do you study the Book of Thayer or the Bible......just because Thayer interprets something a particular way does not necessarily make it right......surly you know this.......??
Click to expand...
no, He listens to men not God, he has already proved this.

he also has failed to admit his error (like someone else I know) thus he just lost any credibility he may have had.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#46
#46
DesiredHaven said:
You responded to the second verse only (adding into the Roman priest) which you afterwards deny and say teacher of the law and then ignore follow up posts



Why did you ignore the very next verse? It was not even out of John 11 (where it speaks of Caiaphas) it was out of 1 John 2:2 from the Apostle.

See the verse right behind it (in the above) the whole world is included in that following verse

Here it is

1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of ((((((((((((((((((( the whole world )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I put extra highlighter around ((((the whole world))))) part for you

People say chill out on the highlighter but I really think more is necessary more often then not.

In respects to Caiaphas again, I didnt hear back from you on this one either



Next verse (which I did not post) adds

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Click to expand...
Sorry I did not respond. I am in the middle of remodeling my bathroom and use the computer as my rest time. In John 11:52, there is no mention of the whole world, but only of "that nation" and the children of God". In 1 John 2:2, the word "world" means the same as in John 1:29, John 3:16, 3:17, 6:33 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9 and 2 Cor 5:19 according to the Greek interpretation of Thayer. Hope to catch you on my next rest break.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#47
#47
dcontroversal said:
No offence but...do you study the Book of Thayer or the Bible......just because Thayer interprets something a particular way does not necessarily make it right......surly you know this.......??
Click to expand...
Because I am not able to understand the Greek language, I do refer to Thayer's and Strong's Greek interpretations. I do believe, with all my heart, that the scriptures must harmonize to understand the truth of Christ's doctrine.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#48
#48
eternally-gratefull said:
no, He listens to men not God, he has already proved this.

he also has failed to admit his error (like someone else I know) thus he just lost any credibility he may have had.
Click to expand...
You have not shown, by scripture, where I am wrong, as I have to you to show where you are wrong.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#49
#49
forsha said:
You have not shown, by scripture, where I am wrong, as I have to you to show where you are wrong.
Click to expand...
You have not shown me anything, but your pride.

You were called out for calling ciaphis a roman priest. and tried to blow it off and sayy you did not. and even though it has been proven you did. You still ignore it.

Thus your reputation is tainted, and you are not seen as a person who has truth, but a person who hides from the truth
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#50
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#50
forsha said:
Because I am not able to understand the Greek language, I do refer to Thayer's and Strong's Greek interpretations. I do believe, with all my heart, that the scriptures must harmonize to understand the truth of Christ's doctrine.
Click to expand...
Without a doubt they do harmonize..........we have been over this before....it all harmonizes with the fact that Christ paid the entire human sin debt and his blood sacrifice is only applied unto those who believe......

1. If he did not pay the entire human sin debt he would have to be re-crucified EVERYTIME someone came to him through faith.
2. The word KOSMOS-->means the whole order of things....
3. ALL of creation GROANS and travails waiting for the adoption....
4. Christ not only bought back humanity, but also bought back the title to the earth and all of creation that had been surrendered and ceded unto the Serpent in the garden by ADAM

Kosmos in the N.T.

Jesus uses HEAVEN and EARTH for KOSMOS.....
Kosmos used to describe the world, the Universe, the Sum of all created being
Kosmos used to describe the totality of all created things
Kosmos used to describe the totality of humanity, the theater of human life, the inhabited world
Kosmos used to describe the fallen creation, History and the setting of salvation

over and over again we see Kosmos applied unto the entire human experience, world and totality of all things created.....

Jesus is the savior of ALL men, especially those who believe.....this simply means it is open to ALL, but only applied unto those who believe....

Jesus died for and paid the sin debt of every man, woman and child on the planet, but will only be applied unto those who believe from ADAM to the LAST MAN/WOMAN born.........

OT looks forward to the-->cross <----NT looks back at the cross

ALL of creation testifies and even the invisible things of God testifies and the Lord has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe) the debt has been paid in full, but will only be applied unto those who believe!
 
C

Cassian

Senior Member
#51
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#51
forsha said:
If Jesus's sacrifice was to reconcile everything in the world back to God, does not make sense in the fact Jesus has warned us of all of the bad things in the world, such as, 1 John 2:15-17, Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but of the world. And the world passeth away (not reconciled), and the lust thereof; but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. I think you have been misinformed about Jesus's work on the cross was to reconcile the things in the world, the sacrifice was only for those that God gave him.
Click to expand...
The purpose of man's existence was to use the gift of this world and bring both himself and the world back to Him as a living sacrifice.
However, Adam failed in this vocation. What he did was to reject the relationship and the purpose of his existence and made the world an end it itself. The world became something to fulfill man's own gratification and purpose. This is what the text is stating. There is nothing wrong with God's world, except that man has exploited it for his own personal gain.
The world will not pass away just like man will not pass away. It has all been renewed through Christ. The consummation, our resurrection and the presentation of a New Heaven and a New Earth awaits us.
Here is what Christ came to do? He came to defeat death, sin and Satan. Heb 2:14, I John 3:8. These as scripture states are the works of Satan. Satan had taken man and this world captive through death. Unless death is defeated, sin becomes meaningless. Even if we could have lived a perfect life to the law, it would not have saved us. Which is what Paul states that the law cannot save us. Only Christ the giver of life can restore life to this world/mankind. Thus He becomes the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14.
Besides that I have already pointed out that Christ was reconciling the world to God. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:24 as well as redeeming all things, Col 1:20.
All things were given to Him, which would be every single human being. Could hardly miss when He assumed our human nature for the express purpose to restore it to life. In John 6:39 it states that He will raise all things that were given to Him, He will lose none. Does not leave much doubt that it is NOT limited in any shape or form.
You might be interested is why He did that? That is given to you in the next verse 40. Those that see and believe will be raised to everylasting life or eternal life.
 
C

Cassian

Senior Member
#52
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
#52
forsha,

If you believe that man has nothing to do with atonement, and you believe that man has to be faithful, and endure before he is covered under the atonement, then that would require man to do something before Christ could atone for his sins.
Click to expand...
quite the contrary. Atonement does not mean forgiveness. All men have been given the gift of the atonement. It can be summed in two words, sacrifice and life.

Christ is our High Priest, Only He can forgive sins, not the atonement. The atonement made it possible for Christ to forgive sins, He became the sacrifice for sin.

Thus man is responsible for his faith. It is man that seeks repentance and remission of sin. To remain or abiding in Christ we need to have our sins forgiven when we commit them. Without remission of our sins, one retains his sins and they can condemn one.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#53
#53
forsha said:
Sorry I did not respond. I am in the middle of remodeling my bathroom and use the computer as my rest time. In John 11:52, there is no mention of the whole world, but only of "that nation" and the children of God". In 1 John 2:2, the word "world" means the same as in John 1:29, John 3:16, 3:17, 6:33 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9 and 2 Cor 5:19 according to the Greek interpretation of Thayer. Hope to catch you on my next rest break.
Click to expand...
Heres"the whole"... "holos"... used 65 times

whole.png

And heres "world" ..."Kosmos" its used 186 times

world.png

The same several verses you provided mean the exact same as those provided for the 186 times for that same word "world"

Its not rocket science here.

Have you even decided which priest Caiaphas is?

Whether he was the high priest, or not the high priest, whether a Roman high priest, a teacher of the law maybe? or something other that? Who speaks from himself or who doesnt speak for himself?

I do thank God for you.

God has helped reduced the labor my ear is needed for

Proverbs 14:7

 
Last edited:
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#54
Dec 9, 2011
14,158
1,809
113
#54
forsha said:
The word "world" in John3:16, along with John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19, according to Thayer's Greek interpretation means, used of believers only. Not all mankind.
Click to expand...
seems like it means to them that will believe.
we were all the whomsoever will before we believed.
 
MarcR

MarcR

Senior Member
#55
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#55
tribesman said:
These scriptures are all addressed to the covenant community, people who already knew God's will, they are not addressed to unbelievers or gentiles in the world. They are therefore not an argument for universal atonement nor for the concept that unregenerate people have any free will in spiritual matters.
Click to expand...
These verses were spoken to a mixed crowd including Roman soldiers who gathered to hear and be baptized by John the Baptizer.
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#56
Dec 9, 2011
14,158
1,809
113
#56
forsha said:
I did not say that he was a priest, I said he was a teacher of the law, as we all should be.
Click to expand...
Could you expound further on that statement about we should teach the law.

Seems like we should show in scripture why the law was given because i don't see teaching law if you can't keep the law perfectly on your own.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#57
#57
eternally-gratefull said:
You have not shown me anything, but your pride.

You were called out for calling ciaphis a roman priest. and tried to blow it off and sayy you did not. and even though it has been proven you did. You still ignore it.

Thus your reputation is tainted, and you are not seen as a person who has truth, but a person who hides from the truth
Click to expand...
I was wrong about Ciaphis not being Romans high priest, but it does not have any affect on our subject.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#58
#58
eternally-gratefull said:
You have not shown me anything, but your pride.

You were called out for calling ciaphis a roman priest. and tried to blow it off and sayy you did not. and even though it has been proven you did. You still ignore it.

Thus your reputation is tainted, and you are not seen as a person who has truth, but a person who hides from the truth
Click to expand...
Good way of keeping from explaining the scriptures that I gave to you. Come on! lets discuss the scriptures.
 
F

forsha

Guest
#59
#59
dcontroversal said:
Without a doubt they do harmonize..........we have been over this before....it all harmonizes with the fact that Christ paid the entire human sin debt and his blood sacrifice is only applied unto those who believe......

1. If he did not pay the entire human sin debt he would have to be re-crucified EVERYTIME someone came to him through faith.
2. The word KOSMOS-->means the whole order of things....
3. ALL of creation GROANS and travails waiting for the adoption....
4. Christ not only bought back humanity, but also bought back the title to the earth and all of creation that had been surrendered and ceded unto the Serpent in the garden by ADAM

Kosmos in the N.T.

Jesus uses HEAVEN and EARTH for KOSMOS.....
Kosmos used to describe the world, the Universe, the Sum of all created being
Kosmos used to describe the totality of all created things
Kosmos used to describe the totality of humanity, the theater of human life, the inhabited world
Kosmos used to describe the fallen creation, History and the setting of salvation

over and over again we see Kosmos applied unto the entire human experience, world and totality of all things created.....

Jesus is the savior of ALL men, especially those who believe.....this simply means it is open to ALL, but only applied unto those who believe....

Jesus died for and paid the sin debt of every man, woman and child on the planet, but will only be applied unto those who believe from ADAM to the LAST MAN/WOMAN born.........

OT looks forward to the-->cross <----NT looks back at the cross

ALL of creation testifies and even the invisible things of God testifies and the Lord has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe) the debt has been paid in full, but will only be applied unto those who believe!
Click to expand...
As long as you believe that a man's believing is the result of his eternal salvation, it will never harmonize with our eternal salvation is by God's grace alone without the help of man.
 
E

ELECT

Guest
#60
#60
Kaycie said:
The payment for sin is payable only to God. However God had to pick a payment that was just, otherwise He would lose His throne. God has to be holy and righteous.
Click to expand...
lose throne :confused:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.