Vessels of Mercy/Vessels of Wrath

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Fubario

Guest
#1
I read in the Bible that God is sovereign and that he can send people to Hell, and I read about predestination and realize that we are in a position where basically we have to be predestined to God otherwise we are going the wrong way. But I also read that there are vessels of wrath and people God hates for no particular reason other than it is God's good will to hate that person. I am struggling with this because I have experienced in my life condemnation from the Spirit of God, literally I felt condemned and I felt like God hated me, and it felt terrible. Next I read about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath in Romans 9, and I see that there is double predestination, for every person saved someone goes to Hell. I want to ask what are your theological positions on this, do you agree with me or what do you think. Also could God condemn some believers to Hell if he wanted to do so?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
God does not hate anyone per se......He loves all and gave his only begotten Son for all....having said that.....he knows who will believe and who will not believe...The ones who deny are the vessels of wrath and will face the condemnation and judgment of God because they rejected his only begotten Son and proof of his love for humanity....

God has dealt to every man a measure of faith....the ability to believe
Jesus has died unto sin once, was sinless and yet took our sin upon him
The invisible things testify
All of creation testifies
God has done all of the work and seeks for us to believe and acknowledge the truth
God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

The people who end up in hell/lake of fire will end up there because they reject the offer of mercy and eternal life dia His Son Jesus Christ......!
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,570
9,088
113
#3
I read in the Bible that God is sovereign and that he can send people to Hell, and I read about predestination and realize that we are in a position where basically we have to be predestined to God otherwise we are going the wrong way. But I also read that there are vessels of wrath and people God hates for no particular reason other than it is God's good will to hate that person. I am struggling with this because I have experienced in my life condemnation from the Spirit of God, literally I felt condemned and I felt like God hated me, and it felt terrible. Next I read about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath in Romans 9, and I see that there is double predestination, for every person saved someone goes to Hell. I want to ask what are your theological positions on this, do you agree with me or what do you think. Also could God condemn some believers to Hell if he wanted to do so?
2Peter 3:99 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If the God who created ALL is NOT willing that ANY should perish, it's hard for me to reckon that God hates you. SATAN hates you and will try ANYTHING to destroy you.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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#4
Romans 9-11 is speaking of God's purposes with the nation Israel...not individuals.
Both predestination AND man's responsibility are taught in Scripture and I hold them both in an unexplainable 'tension'.
If it were only predestination without man's choice how can an individual be judged fairly?
 
L

Least

Guest
#5
2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#6
God does not hate you, He loves you!!!

What you felt was not condemnation but His chastising you out of love for walking in the wrong manner, as He will do to all of his children. We are told to count it as joy when we feel that chastising by His Holy Spirit, because that shows how much He loves us to correct how we are walking. For we are called to walk in love and in proper conduct, as the Holy Spirit will not have us walk contrary to His word. He loves you and wants you to walk in the love that He showed for us, and therefore will guide you to walk that way and away from uncleanness........

We are predestined to believe in the Lord in all stages of our life leading to salvation through Him....
 

Ella85

Senior Member
May 9, 2014
1,414
106
63
#7
God does not hate anyone per se......He loves all and gave his only begotten Son for all....having said that.....he knows who will believe and who will not believe...The ones who deny are the vessels of wrath and will face the condemnation and judgment of God because they rejected his only begotten Son and proof of his love for humanity....

God has dealt to every man a measure of faith....the ability to believe
Jesus has died unto sin once, was sinless and yet took our sin upon him
The invisible things testify
All of creation testifies
God has done all of the work and seeks for us to believe and acknowledge the truth
God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

The people who end up in hell/lake of fire will end up there because they reject the offer of mercy and eternal life dia His Son Jesus Christ......!
Amen, I agree with this for sure!
 
F

forsha

Guest
#8
God does not hate anyone per se......He loves all and gave his only begotten Son for all....having said that.....he knows who will believe and who will not believe...The ones who deny are the vessels of wrath and will face the condemnation and judgment of God because they rejected his only begotten Son and proof of his love for humanity....

God has dealt to every man a measure of faith....the ability to believe
Jesus has died unto sin once, was sinless and yet took our sin upon him
The invisible things testify
All of creation testifies
God has done all of the work and seeks for us to believe and acknowledge the truth
God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth

The people who end up in hell/lake of fire will end up there because they reject the offer of mercy and eternal life dia His Son Jesus Christ......!
How do you harmonize 1 Cor 2:14 with your statement that "God dealt to every man the ability to believe spiritual things"? Your statement that God does not hate anyone, but loves everybody. Romans 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. That the purpose of God according to election might stand. Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. If there is a scripture that says God does not chasten a certain person, that would mean that God does not love that person, right. Ps 73:3, David said, For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death; but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued(chastened) like other men.
 
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forsha

Guest
#9
2Peter 3:99 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If the God who created ALL is NOT willing that ANY should perish, it's hard for me to reckon that God hates you. SATAN hates you and will try ANYTHING to destroy you.
2 Pet 3:9, Peter is talking to "them that have obtained like precious faith",2 Pet 1:1., warning them, including himself by using the word "us-ward", that when they sin they are to repent so they do not parish(lose) their fellowship with God.
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#10
We all sin, from the top to the bottom and if you say you don't then you just sinned. Which is why we need the cross.
 
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forsha

Guest
#11
Romans 9-11 is speaking of God's purposes with the nation Israel...not individuals.
Both predestination AND man's responsibility are taught in Scripture and I hold them both in an unexplainable 'tension'.
If it were only predestination without man's choice how can an individual be judged fairly?
Yet, another, that believes that God will not over ride man's will. Dan 4:35, God has his way with the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand. It was Jonas will to go another direction when God told him to go and preach to Niniva, but God over rode Jonas will and caused him to go and preach to Niniva.
 
Feb 5, 2015
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#12
Yet, another, that believes that God will not over ride man's will. Dan 4:35, God has his way with the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand. It was Jonas will to go another direction when God told him to go and preach to Niniva, but God over rode Jonas will and caused him to go and preach to Niniva.

He didn't overide Pharoahs will now did He?
 

Jon4TheCross

Senior Member
Oct 19, 2012
1,864
7
38
#13
John 17 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

17*These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2*as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3*And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4*I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5*And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6*I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7*Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8*For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9*I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10*And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
 
U

UniverseWars

Guest
#14
Just because you possess that knowledge and considering if you accept Jesus you have nothing to worry about. That being said salvation is available to everyone. Why don't some people choose salvation? Several reasons. Why do some people choose salvation? Several reasons also. It is up to the person to accept the free gift. Why don't some accept it? Look at the account in Genesis. Eve thought she could do better outside the command of God; pride of life, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes. The whole theological idea of God and the whole makeup of the Old and New Testaments point to Christ and salvation found through faith in him. God loves all mankind yet hates evil. Why did you feel condemnation? Could this more accurately be described as conviction from the spirit of God? I recommend Theology for Today by Elmer L. Towns. This will answer your questions.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#15
Yet, another, that believes that God will not over ride man's will. Dan 4:35, God has his way with the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand. It was Jonas will to go another direction when God told him to go and preach to Niniva, but God over rode Jonas will and caused him to go and preach to Niniva.
Yet, another, that put words in my mouth. Let me try to be even clearer. God is 100% sovereign and man is 100% responsible for his wrong thoughts and actions.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#16
...But I also read that there are vessels of wrath and people God hates for no particular reason other than it is God's good will to hate that person.
While I am of the reformed tradition, I do not hold to literal unconditional reprobation. Look at Rom.1:

Rom.1

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
So we see here as to why they were given over to reprobation. Something in them caused God's wrath. It is not the same as for unconditional election of the Saints. Because nothing in them caused God to elect them.

I am struggling with this because I have experienced in my life condemnation from the Spirit of God, literally I felt condemned and I felt like God hated me, and it felt terrible. Next I read about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath in Romans 9, and I see that there is double predestination, for every person saved someone goes to Hell.
There is no text which says what I quoted from you in bold. It is not for us to speculate as to whom God has predestined to salvation and whom He has hardened.

I want to ask what are your theological positions on this, do you agree with me or what do you think. Also could God condemn some believers to Hell if he wanted to do so?
God will never ever condemn a genuine believer, someone that He sent His Son to redeem. The question of single/double predestination is something that all believers will struggle with at some point, some do it for a longer time, some maybe keep on struggling with it until they go to heaven and see clear eye to eye on all things. What should be stressed is that when scripture speaks of election/predestination it is primarily about the predestination of believers "to be conformed to the image of his Son".

Rom.8

[28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
[32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
[33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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TWAN

Guest
#17
The chosen ones are the ancesters of Abraham. Those who are of the other strain are fallen angels who possess bodies and love evil. Anyone who doesnt think like one of these will be saved from the great deception.
 
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TWAN

Guest
#19
Chosen for the promised land. Abraham is a direct decendant of Moses. If you love evil you descended from the seed of the accuser.
 
Mar 31, 2015
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#20
Chosen for the promised land. Abraham is a direct decendant of Moses. If you love evil you descended from the seed of the accuser.
Where is the promise land? Where you are chosen to be?