When does the rapture occur?

[valiant]

God and the Lamb being the temple I view as post Millennium, eternal state, based on Rev 21:



[SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

We see that the judgment has occurred and the books have been opened.

There will be no millennium. It is not taught in Scripture. But it is certainly in the new heaven and the new earth.

Paul discusses "the temple of God" and the Man of Sin sitting there and people see it.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

But which 'temple of God'? And which God? note the reference to 'all that is called God'. this was probably fulfilled in the days of Caligula who exalted himself in many temples of God.

The Great Multitude are also said to be in the Temple serving God.

Revelation 7:15
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.

Yes the temple in heaven.

Then in Rev 11 John was instructed to actually measure the temple which would seem to be a physical structure
Revelation 11:1
Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

he had to measure all who worshiped there. Would he do height or waist? It is clearly NOT a physical temple. He is measuring the Temple which is His people

But of course John was told not to measure the court because it was given to the Gentiles. The unsaved Gentiles are not in heaven. Further, the last temple was destroyed in AD 70 which was after John was told to measure it, so it could not have been the temple destroyed by Titus.

Revelation 11:2
But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Do you really think that the Gentiles could be encamped in the temple court treading it underfoot whilst the believers were allowed to use it unmolested and stayed within the sanctuary? It is figurative.

But then we have several passages that are discussing the "temple in heaven."

Revelation 11:19

Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Revelation 14:17
Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Revelation 15:5
After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Revelation 15:6
And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.

Revelation 15:8
The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Revelation 16:17
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

Precisely, the temple of God was in heaven not on earth.

Is it the temple in heaven that the Man of Sin is seen in declaring himself to be God? Is this why war finally breaks out in heaven and Satan is cast to earth? Is this why Satan is able to deceive so many because he is seen in heaven first?

I think this is fantasy

I have a theory that heaven approaches earth in the last days and is visible to us on the ground. There is much scriptural support for this view.

Hold on to it for I doubt if it is true. Heaven is not a physical place.

 

[john832]

No Millennium?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And they live and reign with Christ on the earth...

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[john832]

Do you really think that the Gentiles could be encamped in the temple court treading it underfoot whilst the believers were allowed to use it unmolested and stayed within the sanctuary? It is figurative.

Uh, yes I think they can...

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Absolutely fulfilled in type by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168-167BC.

It will happen again in an anti-typical fulfillment.

Now the believers cannot use it unmolested, that also is revealed in Dan 11.

 

[PlainWord]

Matthew 24:

[SUP]34[/SUP] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Strong's definition for the word 'fulfilled':

G1096

a prol. and mid. form of a prim. verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflex.) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (lit., fig.,intens., etc.):-arise, be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.


[TABLE="width: 250"]
[TR]
[TD]prol.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]prolongation; prolonged[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]mid.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]middle (voice)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]prim.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]primary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]reflex.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]reflexive (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]lit.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]literal (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]fig.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]figurative (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]intens.[/TD]
[TD]=[/TD]
[TD]intensive (-ly)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Notice the italicized phrases at the beginning of the definition:

~ to cause to be ("gen"-erate)
~ to become (come into being)

This is the essential - "main" - "sense and tense" - of the definition of the word.

The 'effect' of this on the verse is:

This generation shall not pass, till all these things begin to come to pass.


I believe that the generation referred to is the generation that was present at the time Jesus made this statement -- and that - the prophesy that Jesus spoke of began to come to pass before that generation died out. ( i.e. - circa 70 A.D. )

I understand that is your position and I get your case for making it. However, this idea fails on several fronts, IMO.

1) John did not write the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ until 95-96 AD long after the Temple was destroyed.
2) The Gospel had not been preached to all the nations until recently.
3) There was no Abomination of Desolation in the Temple of AD 70. The Temple was destroyed and nobody claimed to be God standing there prior to its destruction but after Jesus uttered those words.
4) "the end of the age" would have to have been the AD 70 event for Mat 24:3 & 14 to be complete
5) Christ has not returned

Note the order of the question.

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The disciples saw the Return of Christ happening before (or at best part of) the end of the age, thus the end of the age could not have been AD 70. Rather, the end of the age happens after the return of Christ. Similarly, there has been no end time resurrection, judgment or reward, all of which happen after Christ returns or in conjunction with it.

The rise of the Muslim world and Mother Babylon (Islam) did not begin until Muhammad, circa 630 AD.

The Roman Empire was not totally defeated and replaced until 1299 AD.

The rise and fall of the 7th Beast (that John saw) happened between 1299 and 1922.

Was Christ speaking of those events in the Olivet? Perhaps not but John did. John also spoke of the Great Tribulation which Christ also discussed in the Olivet so those passages in Revelation further define the Olivet. There were not enough dead people circa AD 70 to be considered a Great Multitude, too big to number.

 

[PlainWord]

According to the contemporary historian Josephus, there were 97,000 prisoners and 1,100,000 who perished. He also cites a widespread slaughter by the local populations elsewhere where the Jews were disliked including Damascus 18,000 plus their families and Egypt 60,000 plus families.

Not enough dead in the AD 70 event to be considered the Great Tribulation. 6,000,000 Jews died during Nazi Germany.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Greatest Tribulation EVER in AD 70? I think not. The world has never seen a war or mass global death event over 5% of population except for the Great Flood. Thus the Great Tribulation could not be in the past and must be future.

 

[MarcR]

Isa 66:8
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
KJV


The nation is modern Israel. The day was 5/15/1948.

The fig tree is a figure of the nation of Israel, not only in Scripture but throughout ancient Jewish literature and commentary.


Mt 24:2-17

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
KJV



what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? This sets the context for what follows.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

While there have alwaysbeen wars,there have been more wars and more loss of life from wars in the last 100 years than in all of previous history.

there shall be famines there are famines now in nations that have never before experienced them.

and pestilences new killer diseases are running rampant worldwide.

and earthquakes, in divers places. There have been more and stronger earthquakes worldwide in the last 50 years than in the 500 years previous to them.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: More believers are being killed, tortured, and persecuted in the world today than at any prior time in history.

And then shall many be offended, There is more apostasy from the faith in the last 50 years than in all prior history.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, The construction of the altar, which will permit the resumption of animal sacrifice was finished this past week.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

 

[PlainWord]

There will be no millennium. It is not taught in Scripture. But it is certainly in the new heaven and the new earth.

Wrong on both statements. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, as written by the Apostle John, reveals much more about Christ than what the rest of the scriptures teach. Revelation adds to the rest of the Bible. It cannot be discounted as a crazy spiritual book as some suggest. Rev 20:4-6 teaches a 1,000 year period.

Wrong about the Temple too. There is no temple in the eternal state. This fact is clearly taught.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

But there is a temple in heaven now as many other passages in Revelation discuss it.

But which 'temple of God'? And which God? note the reference to 'all that is called God'. this was probably fulfilled in the days of Caligula who exalted himself in many temples of God.

Gaius Caesar, known as Caligula, succeeded Tiberius and served as Roman emperor from 37 to 41 A.D. Cassius Chaerea murdered him in 41 A.D. at the Palatine Games.

Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians in AD 51 or 52. So, nice try. Paul was speaking of a future event.

Yes the temple in heaven.

Agreed.

he had to measure all who worshiped there. Would he do height or waist? It is clearly NOT a physical temple. He is measuring the Temple which is His people

The Greek word for "Measure" is: 3354 metreo; from 3358 to measure, ascertain in size by a fixed standard.

There is nothing to suggest he was counting people. The next verses say this:

And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The Gentiles are "treading the holy city for forty-two months. You have a physical place being discussed as you don't tread in thin air and you aren't clothed in sackcloth which is an attire for mourning. Further, the Gentiles tread the city for 42 months, a specific period of time. Under your thinking, these people are outside the body of Christ for only 42 months, then what? Are they accepted into the temple - the body of Christ?

Do you really think that the Gentiles could be encamped in the temple court treading it underfoot whilst the believers were allowed to use it unmolested and stayed within the sanctuary? It is figurative.

Sure, why not? The reverse is happening today. The Muslims are worshiping inside the Dome of the Rock while surrounded by Jews who are in direct opposition to them. This has been going on for centuries but especially since 1948. So why can't the Jews have their temple and be left alone for 42 months? Just saying it's not impossible.

I think this is fantasy

Maybe. I agree, it's wild stuff but we should at least consider it. We know there will be incredible signs in the heavens. Just what are those signs? They are obvious to people on earth and that the Lamb is coming. People have time to run and hide from the face of His who sits on the throne. How do they know God's there on the throne if they can't see Him? What makes the heavenly lights darken? How are the proclaiming angels flying around heaven seen and heard and understood on earth if they aren't seen?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[SUP][g][/SUP] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Again, how do they know God is here and on the throne.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— [SUP]7 [/SUP]saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”


We have an angel where? Doing what? What good is a warning if nobody can see or hear it?

Hold on to it for I doubt if it is true. Heaven is not a physical place.

Of course Heaven is a physical place. Souls go there and come back all the time. Ever hear of people who have near death experiences? Even Stephen could see into heaven and Paul claims to have gone there. Heaven is real alright and if it is real, it can come here.

[SUP]55 [/SUP]But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, [SUP]56 [/SUP]and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

 

[GaryA]

I understand that is your position and I get your case for making it. However, this idea fails on several fronts, IMO.

1) John did not write the Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ until 95-96 AD long after the Temple was destroyed. { So? }
2) The Gospel had not been preached to all the nations until recently. { So? }
3) There was no Abomination of Desolation in the Temple of AD 70. The Temple was destroyed and nobody claimed to be God standing there prior to its destruction but after Jesus uttered those words. { How are you so absolutely sure? }
4) "the end of the age" would have to have been the AD 70 event for Mat 24:3 & 14 to be complete { Why? }
5) Christ has not returned { So? }

Note the order of the question.

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

The disciples saw the Return of Christ happening before (or at best part of) the end of the age, thus the end of the age could not have been AD 70. Rather, the end of the age happens after the return of Christ. Similarly, there has been no end time resurrection, judgment or reward, all of which happen after Christ returns or in conjunction with it.

The rise of the Muslim world and Mother Babylon (Islam) did not begin until Muhammad, circa 630 AD.

The Roman Empire was not totally defeated and replaced until 1299 AD.

The rise and fall of the 7th Beast (that John saw) happened between 1299 and 1922.

Was Christ speaking of those events in the Olivet? Perhaps not but John did. John also spoke of the Great Tribulation which Christ also discussed in the Olivet so those passages in Revelation further define the Olivet. There were not enough dead people circa AD 70 to be considered a Great Multitude, too big to number.

You seem to think that I think that the 'End' has already come...???

I believe that Revelation prophesy has been "unfolding" over the past ~2000 years; rather than, all-at-once in a very short period of time at the 'End'... ( in the future )

I believe that we are already IN the Tribulation Period - since circa 70 A.D. - a long period of time, not a short one. It will end in the future...

The dark ages --- the world wars --- the other "modern" wars --- many other "modern" things --- the past ~2000 years is and has been that time that is "worse" than any before or after it --- and, the worst of it is yet to come...

 

[Blain]

ok I know the answer I know when the rapture occurs so we can put this thread to rest. it happens when it happens- not the answer you expected eh? were you looking for more like 3/12 2016 or something? ha! no no no no.....

 

[PlainWord]

You seem to think that I think that the 'End' has already come...???

No I don't. What gives you that idea? I think virtually everything Christ was discussing didn't start to happen until recently. It seems to me you want to make everything as fulfilled in ancient history. I believe the destruction of the temple discussion wasn't even part of the Olivet Discourse as that part of the chapter took place as they were leaving the temple.

When the disciples asked their infamous question...

“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

...they weren't referring back to their earlier temple destruction topic, they were referring back to Christ's earlier chat about the resurrection to the pharisees. The temple chat was over...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives...

This is when the disciples asked the above. You see, the disciplines knew that there would be a resurrection of the dead at the end of the age. Jesus taught this in John 6. So in Mark 12 (below) when the topic came up, Christ was asked and answered about this topic in the temple before leaving and going to the Olivet. So here is the back drop...

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? [SUP]25 [/SUP]For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[SUP][/SUP] [SUP]27 [/SUP]He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

The disciplines wanted to know when the dead will rise and what signs would there be before it happened and before Christ returns. They saw both events, the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, as linked events and that they happen at the "end of the age" not the end of time.

I believe that Revelation prophesy has been "unfolding" over the past ~2000 years; rather than, all-at-once in a very short period of time at the 'End'... ( in the future )

Some has, most hasn't started until now, IMO. . My basis for this view is that Babylon is Islam which began around 600 AD. The 7th Beast that John saw as part of the world history of beasts was the Ottoman Empire 1299-1922 AD. Daniel's 4 beasts are part of John's 7 beasts. Then we have an 8th beast that must continue for a short time. This beast is the "Beast of the Sea" from Rev 13. The Beast comes from the region of Syria, Iraq and Iran. At first I thought ISIS was going to develop into this Beast but now I think it will be Iran with its nukes. All of Rev 13 is future but starting now.

I believe that we are already IN the Tribulation Period - since circa 70 A.D. - a long period of time, not a short one. It will end in the future...

With respect, I believe this view is impossible. Jesus tells us that the Tribulation begins immediately after the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Holy Place. You cannot point to where this happened in AD 70. The Temple was destroyed, it was not defamed then. Also, that period of time was not the worst period the Jews ever faced. Nazi Germany was 6 times more lethal to Jews than Titus was. The whole flavor of Christ's remarks were that when this A of D event happens everyone is to immediately get out of Dodge because something bad was going to start immediately. The AD 70 event was a sign of things to come.

So, is the Great Tribulation a period of Jewish (and Christian) persecution that began in AD 70 and continues to this day or is it a future event that lasts a short period of time where Jews and Christians are slaughtered in huge numbers??

The debate continues. But consider this:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Under your theory we have had 1,945 years of Great Tribulation and counting. That notion doesn't seem to jive with the above concept of God needing to shorten the days or everyone would be killed. Therefore I think it more likely that there will be an A of D event and everyone in Judea flees from it out of terror because they know whatever it is, is coming to kill them.

The dark ages --- the world wars --- the other "modern" wars --- many other "modern" things --- the past ~2000 years is and has been that time that is "worse" than any before or after it --- and, the worst of it is yet to come...

Those are the "Beginnings of Sorrows" IMO. We agree that the worst is yet to come. This "worst" that is yet to come, starts with the A of D and it is aimed right at and only at Israel.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee...

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

or as Mark puts it:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

Or as Luke puts it:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

or as Daniel puts it:

And there shall be a time of trouble,Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.

We have not seen this because this happens right before the Day of the Lord. We have dozens of passages that tell us this.

 

[PlainWord]

ok I know the answer I know when the rapture occurs so we can put this thread to rest. it happens when it happens- not the answer you expected eh? were you looking for more like 3/12 2016 or something? ha! no no no no.....

Who cares about the Rapture? We have to endure the Greatest Tribulation in the history of the world first. Satan is coming to unleash all his wrath upon mankind. The vast majority of us will be killed before there is any rapture. The rapture spares the remnant only. The church is utterly wiped out as will be most of Israel.

 

[VCO]

There will be no millennium. It is not taught in Scripture. But it is certainly in the new heaven and the new earth.
.
.
.

Precisely, the temple of God was in heaven not on earth.




I think this is fantasy



Hold on to it for I doubt if it is true. Heaven is not a physical place.

☝t<><

I think that your theories are all based on your opinions and not supported by any Scripture, and if you accept Scripture as proof, it will be proven. If not, you are on your own, outside Mainline Christianity's Teachings, but you certainly are mentioned in the Bible:

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

The New Heaven (Atmosphere) and the New Earth is a reference the Eternal State, that comes after JUDGEMENT DAY.

The Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ is immediately PRIOR to JUDGEMENT DAY, and begins with HIS setting foot on earth again, on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half. The 144,000 are all Jews who were sealed by GOD, and left alive in their mortal bodies to repopulate ISRAEL, as JESUS CHRIST takes HIS rightful place, on the THRONE of DAVID. That is being KING of ISRAEL, and not a reference to the THRONE in Heaven. The length of that Earthly Kingdom 1000 years, while HIS REIGN from the THRONE OF GOD in HEAVEN IS AN ETERNAL KINGDOM. Here are the Scripture to prove those statements, but I really do not think your BELIEVE THE BIBLE WAS ALL INSPIRED BY GOD.

Revelation 20:2-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. {That is the end of the first Earth and it's heaven or atmosphere (Gen. 1:20, Jer. 16:4 ". . . birds of heaven . . ."); the Bibe calls the Atmosphere heaven, also the stars of the Universe are called heaven, as well as the eternal dwelling place of GOD is called HEAVEN. NOTICE, the New Heaven and the New Earth are after the Thousand Year Reign of Christ from the Throne of DAVID, and after the JUDGEMENT DAY.}
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

HERE is a better look at the DAY HE RETURNS TO EARTH, to set up HIS 1000 YEAR EARTHLY KINGDOM:

Zechariah 14:3-7 (GW)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as He does when He fights a battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, just east of Jerusalem. {It is NOT a Second Coming until HIS FEET TOUCH ground and:} The Mount of Olives will be split in two, forming a very large valley from east to west. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and the other half will move toward the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Then you will flee {THE 144,000} to the valley of my mountains, because this valley between the mountains will go as far as Azel. You will flee as you did from the earthquake at the time of King Uzziah of Judah. The LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones will be with him. {Those are Both O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints in their glorified resurrected bodies, who believed Messiah would come, or did come to forgive their sins in HIS First Coming. That is the Faith of Abraham.}
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be neither heat nor freezing cold.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] There will be one day—a day known to the LORD—with no difference between day and night. It will be light even in the evening.
Revelation 7:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Luke 1:31-32 (NKJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

The FIRST COMING, He came as Messiah the Prince; while in the SECOND COMING He is Coming as KING.

Daniel 9:25 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat, but in difficult times.

Revelation 19:15-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

☝t<><

1 Samuel 3:3-4 (ASV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and the lamp of God was not yet gone out, and Samuel was laid down to sleep, in the temple of Jehovah, where the ark of God was;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] that Jehovah called Samuel; and he said, Here am I.

1 Kings 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] So I plan to build a temple for the name of Yahweh my God, according to what the LORD promised my father David: ‘I will put your son on your throne in your place, and he will build the temple for My name.’

1 Kings 8:18-20 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But the LORD said to my father David, 'Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will come from your body, he shall build the temple for My name.'
[SUP]20 [/SUP] So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.


It helps when you get your theology from the WORD of GOD, instead from what you have been told.

THERE IS a Third Temple that is READY to be BUILT.

[video]https://youtu.be/vCsEMjpZZoo[/video]

 

[VCO]

For a Detailed Biblical Explanation of what many call "the Rapture", see my thread Entitled:

THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/95283-calling-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html


I dislike the term "Rapture" because is confusing, it is mis-used by False Prophets, and it is certainly mis-interpreted by Mid-Trib and Post-Trib enthusiasts, the majority of whom have never studied Jewish Wedding Traditions and WHY Christ called Himself the BRIDEGROOM.

Luke 5:34-35 (NKJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And He said to them, "Can you make the friends of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them?
[SUP]35 [/SUP] But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them; then they will fast in those days."

That event (The Calling Out of the Bride), is the fulfillment of the prophecy told in the Parable of Ten Virgins:

Matthew 25:1-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!'
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

[GaryA]

So, is the Great Tribulation a period of Jewish (and Christian) persecution that began in AD 70 and continues to this day or is it a future event that lasts a short period of time where Jews and Christians are slaughtered in huge numbers??

"BOTH - in a manner of speaking..."

The "short period of time" here is simply the end of the long period of time which is the Great Tribulation.

Understand?

 

[GaryA]

With respect, I believe this view is impossible. Jesus tells us that the Tribulation begins immediately after the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Holy Place. You cannot point to where this happened in AD 70. { No - I cannot. But I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that it MUST have happened "just before" the events of 70 A.D. -- largely because of Luke 21:24. } The Temple was destroyed, it was not defamed then. { How do you absolutely know this? } Also, that period of time was not the worst period the Jews ever faced. { To date - I believe that it probably is... } Nazi Germany was 6 times more lethal to Jews than Titus was. { Not in 'horrific' terms... } The whole flavor of Christ's remarks were that when this A of D event happens everyone is to immediately get out of Dodge because something bad was going to start immediately. { And they did! ( The Christians, that is... ) And, it did! } The AD 70 event was a sign of things to come.

What you need to fully grasp is that the Great Tribulation period * is * not * over * yet --- and, the worst is yet to come...

What a lot of folks think is the entire Great Tribulation is simply the END OF IT.



If you look at the table below the chart on my Olivet Discourse page --- ( I believe ) we are currently at / in / on 'Chronological Order' step #6.

Keep in mind that each 'Chronological Order' step marks the beginning of [ something ] - and does not mark the end of the previous step...

 

[VCO]

Who cares about the Rapture? We have to endure the Greatest Tribulation in the history of the world first. Satan is coming to unleash all his wrath upon mankind. The vast majority of us will be killed before there is any rapture. The rapture spares the remnant only. The church is utterly wiped out as will be most of Israel.

2 Peter 3:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,

Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Daniel 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.” {That is a week of YEARS, ALSO known as the Great Tribulation, and that is future prophecy. It is when a powerful Dictator will orchestrate a Seven Year Peace Treaty with ISRAEL and Her many enemies. Only to BREAK THE PEACE TREATY himself at the mid-week point, and thus becoming to most blood-thirsty dictator that has ever lived.}

Revelation 6:9-11 (YLT) {Same week of Years.}
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed--even as they.

Revelation 20:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded {During that Same week of Years.} because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. {So it is the the Seven Years just prior to Christ's Second Coming.}

 

[popeye]

Who cares about the Rapture? We have to endure the Greatest Tribulation in the history of the world first. Satan is coming to unleash all his wrath upon mankind. The vast majority of us will be killed before there is any rapture. The rapture spares the remnant only. The church is utterly wiped out as will be most of Israel.

To clarify,you are telling the world ,basically ;"Jesus ain't coming,but satan is.Watch and wait for satan"

 

[popeye]

For a Detailed Biblical Explanation of what many call "the Rapture", see my thread Entitled:

THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/95283-calling-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html


I dislike the term "Rapture" because is confusing, it is mis-used by False Prophets, and it is certainly mis-interpreted by Mid-Trib and Post-Trib enthusiasts, the majority of whom have never studied Jewish Wedding Traditions and WHY Christ called Himself the BRIDEGROOM.

Luke 5:34-35 (NKJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And He said to them, "Can you make the friends of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them?
[SUP]35 [/SUP] But the days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them; then they will fast in those days."

That event (The Calling Out of the Bride), is the fulfillment of the prophecy told in the Parable of Ten Virgins:

Matthew 25:1-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!'
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!'
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Yes sir.
The bride/groom dimension absolutely blows the mid and post theories out of the water.
No wonder they NEVER initiate this ingrediant.
Postrib is DOA big time

 

[GaryA]

Under your theory we have had 1,945 years of Great Tribulation and counting. That notion doesn't seem to jive with the above concept of God needing to shorten the days or everyone would be killed.

The "shortening of the days" has everything to do with the end of it - and nothing to do with the length of it... It is what happens at the end of it that causes it to have to be shortened.

( And, we are not to the end of it, yet... )

Therefore I think it more likely that there will be an A of D event and everyone in Judea flees from it out of terror because they know whatever it is, is coming to kill them.

This happened in 70 A.D. ( The Christians fled to safety. The non-believing Jews did not. )

 

[popeye]

According to the contemporary historian Josephus, there were 97,000 prisoners and 1,100,000 who perished. He also cites a widespread slaughter by the local populations elsewhere where the Jews were disliked including Damascus 18,000 plus their families and Egypt 60,000 plus families.

Not enough dead in the AD 70 event to be considered the Great Tribulation. 6,000,000 Jews died during Nazi Germany.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Greatest Tribulation EVER in AD 70? I think not. The world has never seen a war or mass global death event over 5% of population except for the Great Flood. Thus the Great Tribulation could not be in the past and must be future.

Good stuff PW.
The misunderstanding in the preterist view is traced back to the "3 questions" Jesus was asked in mat 24 and the subsequent 3 part answer.