When does the rapture occur?

[JesusIsAll]

So you think I'm not born again because I refuse to believe your Traditions of Man that make void the very Word of God??? What arrogance!!!! As for the rest of your post, you have showed and proved absolutely NOTHING!!

Now, such posts do prove something, that it doesn't take much to make you blow a gasket, while awaiting your cursed hopelessness, the appearance of Antichrist you must be looking forward to, instead of the appearance of Jesus Christ most of us are looking for. Scripture aside, you should try chilling a bit more, because (let the reader understand...),

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." - Hamlet by William Shakespeare.


​

Titus 2:13-15 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

​

 

[PlainWord]

Now, such posts do prove something, that it doesn't take much to make you blow a gasket, while awaiting your cursed hopelessness, the appearance of Antichrist you must be looking forward to, instead of the appearance of Jesus Christ most of us are looking for. Scripture aside, you should try chilling a bit more, because (let the reader understand...),

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." - Hamlet by William Shakespeare.


​

Titus 2:13-15 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

​

Perhaps if you were accused of not being born again you might take offense also. His remarks were arrogant and I called him on it. As for your remarks, I am very much looking forward to the return of the Lord but unlike you, I am heeding His warnings and know that much evil will be unleashed first.

 

[popeye]

So you think I'm not born again because I refuse to believe your Traditions of Man that make void the very Word of God??? What arrogance!!!! As for the rest of your post, you have showed and proved absolutely NOTHING!!

Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

Can you not see that the Saints are on earth being persecuted by Satan's forces (Islamic jihadists) and that has started already in Iraq and Syria with Christians being slaughtered there, in Egypt, in Kenya, in Libya and other places where we are told it will happen? Nothing tells us that any saint is raptured off to heaven. The only saints in heaven are those who died.

Christians are dying and being beheaded all over the Sea region of Rev 13 now. These are the same people who you cite from Rev 20:4-6. They are not left behind after some rapture, are they???? But you don't see this because you are still here, therefore the Tribulation can't possibly start in your arrogant self-centered mind. Go tell that to those ISIS is beheading.

Yes it does;
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jn 14;2 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Mat 26; 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Luke 21; (no3 this one is a clincher)36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 3;3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

mat 25 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

mark 2;20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
Acts 1;9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Now why in the world do postribs never initiate these ( a few of many) pretrib verses??????

 

[popeye]

Things fit quite well. Just not the way youd like it. You just showed how God delivered
folks while they stayed on earth then you took the position He cant in the future.

Uh,show us the postflood rapture/deliverance or anything paralleling your postrib theory.
Hint;you need a postflood catching away.
You DO have a preflood event,with the righteous RISING into the heavens via the flood waters,then returning AFTER the flood.
Kinda like a pretrib scenario wwe keep telling you guys about.
IOW,under your scenario,noah would have to be delivered post flood. Like God shows up after the flood,and tells noah to build an ark.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Now why in the world do postribs never initiate these ( a few of many) pretrib verses??????

Must one point out this guy is a career, anti-rapture troll, that all these things are simply repeating, ad infinitum, week after week, month after month, year after year? He'd have to commit suicide if the rapture occurred, as he'd have nothing left to do with his life. When was the last time a new scripture was added to the many dealing with the pre-tribulation rapture? You say yes five hundred times, he says no five hundred times, the real mystery as to when anybody will finally get bored with repeating themselves?

 

[tourist]

Uh,show us the postflood rapture/deliverance or anything paralleling your postrib theory.
Hint;you need a postflood catching away.
You DO have a preflood event,with the righteous RISING into the heavens via the flood waters,then returning AFTER the flood.
Kinda like a pretrib scenario wwe keep telling you guys about.
IOW,under your scenario,noah would have to be delivered post flood. Like God shows up after the flood,and tells noah to build an ark.

The person you are talking to is deceased. It does not appear that he was raptured.

 

[valiant]

☝t<><
You are using a very short Yard Stick to measure what Jesus KNEW, considering HE is GOD in the Flesh, and considering ONLY a very small FRACTION of His earthly Ministry is recorded in our BIBLES.


John 21:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

What would you say if I said that in His unrecorded teaching Jesus taught about fairies, and elves, and gnomes and witches? You would rightly condemn it. In the same way if you are trying to suggest that Jesus taught the millennium but not even John mentioned it (even though he wrote his Gospel after he wrote Revelation) I will equally condemn it. If John had believed in a millennium and thought it was important he would certainly have mentioned any teaching concerning it. I am not impressed by your argument which suggests that God was inefficient.

HIS earthly reign from the Throne of David, is the Millennium that is mentioned in Rev. 20:6.

No it is His present reign in Heaven that is described in Rev 20.4-6.

In the Eternal Kingdom there is NO sun rising and setting, to constitute measured time. I am sure you know that. Therefore when you have a measured time limited Kingdom it has to be a reference to a Kingdom here on earth,

It is a reference to the present age, when we live and reign with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2.5-6) along with the saints in heaven.

and I am convinced it is linked to the Fulfilling of the 70th Week of Daniel, GOD's promise to ISRAEL, that comes at the end of the Church-age

the seventieth seven follows immediately after the sixty ninth seven. There is no genuine reason for making any division.

and then the 144,000 get to live with their KING for a 1000 years.

Another of Christ's teachings that John never recorded? LOL

We will be in be in our resurrected or changed glorified bodies Reigning as Priests

But it was the SOULS of the saints which were priests. They had not been resurrected.

I believe it will be the children born in that 1000 year Kingdom, who will be living in a perfect world, that probably will be like the Garden of Eden.

All the time arousing rebellion in the hearts of huge numbers which breaks out at the end? Doesn't sound like the Garden of Eden to me. Sounds like gross incompetence.

Those born in that perfect environment will need much Teaching. Primarily they will have to be taught to appreciate what CHRIST HAS DONE, and not to take it all for granted. Still sounds far fetched to you, and you still want to believe we go directly to the Eternal State of the Heavenly Kingdom?

Yes it does sound far fetched to me

 

[VCO]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do agree that "tribulation" has been going on since John the Baptist (who was the first martyr) and especially since Christ. Those who followed Christ in His day faced constant "tribulation." The Jewish people and Christians have been facing tribulation since then and it continues to this day. It does appear to be getting worse on a global basis.

The word "Tribulation" or "Tribulations" as it appears 32 times in the Bible almost always (31 times) refers to the persecution and death of "God's People" at the hands of the wicked. Therefore Mat 24:15-28, and its related passages, are DIRE WARNINGS to those Christ loves. The warning is of the "GREAT TRIBULATION" which is an unparallelled period of violence and slaughter of those Christ loves. You have correctly identified that the target of the Great Tribulation, which puts you in rare air (unlike so many Christians who mistakenly think the Tribulation is divine wrath against the wicked), but you fail to see that the Great Tribulation has not yet started.

The trigger for the start of the Great Tribulation is the appearance of the Abomination of Desolation. This A of D event, whatever it is and wherever it appears, is of unspeakable evil. I believe it will be the greatest offense to God that the world has ever seen. It was foretold some 2,500 years ago and reaffirmed by Christ. I further believe that when it happens, the slaughter begins and that's why those in Judea are told to immediately flee. The GT is so bad that God must intervene and put a stop to it or Satan will kill everybody. I believe that when it ends, we see the signs in heaven. It may be that those signs are the reason the killing stops. Those doing the killing see the signs and have an "oh crap, what have I been doing?" moment.

I have a suspicion of what it MIGHT be:

Daniel 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

 

[VCO]

What would you say if I said that in His unrecorded teaching Jesus taught about fairies, and elves, and gnomes and witches? You would rightly condemn it. In the same way if you are trying to suggest that Jesus taught the millennium but not even John mentioned it (even though he wrote his Gospel after he wrote Revelation) I will equally condemn it. If John had believed in a millennium and thought it was important he would certainly have mentioned any teaching concerning it. I am not impressed by your argument which suggests that God was inefficient.



No it is His present reign in Heaven that is described in Rev 20.4-6.



It is a reference to the present age, when we live and reign with Christ in the heavenlies (Eph 2.5-6) along with the saints in heaven.



the seventieth seven follows immediately after the sixty ninth seven. There is no genuine reason for making any division.




Another of Christ's teachings that John never recorded? LOL



But it was the SOULS of the saints which were priests. They had not been resurrected.



All the time arousing rebellion in the hearts of huge numbers which breaks out at the end? Doesn't sound like the Garden of Eden to me. Sounds like gross incompetence.



Yes it does sound far fetched to me

Now that was a quick Stalemate. Believe what you want, I will stick with what the Holy Spirit convicts me to believe in my heart, and the sound teachings of men of GOD like Dr. John MacArthur, Dr. Gil Rugh, and Dr. Zola Levitt, etc.

Here is an appropriate sermon from Dr. Gil Rugh:

[video]https://youtu.be/iuZMhYTuXIw[/video]

And here is an appropriate series of videos by Dr. Zola Levitt, called the Seven Feasts of Israel:

ZLM Video Series: “The Seven Feasts of Israel”

 

[MarcR]

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.



Is this verse talking about tribulation?

You in this verse is Christian, so Christian go to tribulation?


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand



When Ye see= when you see= when Christian see

Christian able to see because still on the world, is that mean rapture happen after abomination of desolation?

Look at The areas under control of ISIS and the Taliban and look at Nigeria, Ethiopia, Somolia, Burma, Pakistan, China, North Korea, and many other parts of the world; and you will see this already happening.

I believe that the first five seals are already opened; and that the rapture will occur at the opening of the sixth seal.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Look at The areas under control of ISIS and the Taliban and look at Nigeria, Ethiopia, Somolia, Burma, Pakistan, China, North Korea, and many other parts of the world; and you will see this already happening.

I believe that the first five seals are already opened; and that the rapture will occur at the opening of the sixth seal.

I agree with you here that the first 5 seals have been opened, but to keep in line with the discussion about pre-trib rapture or not. Look at what the Lord says to those that have already been killed for His name under that 5th seal as it says be killed not raptured........

Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[VCO]

Look at The areas under control of ISIS and the Taliban and look at Nigeria, Ethiopia, Somolia, Burma, Pakistan, China, North Korea, and many other parts of the world; and you will see this already happening.

I believe that the first five seals are already opened; and that the rapture will occur at the opening of the sixth seal.

Yes the stage for the final Act is set. It should give us a great sense of urgency to witness the Gospel Message to all who will listen.

 

[VCO]

I agree with you here that the first 5 seals have been opened, but to keep in line with the discussion about pre-trib rapture or not. Look at what the Lord says to those that have already been killed for His name under that 5th seal as it says be killed not raptured........

Revelation 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Yes the Tribulation Saints also receive white robes, the traditional Wedding garment. All the Saints are given the white robes; O.T. Saints, N.T. Saints, and the Tribulation Saints:

The White Robes are Symbolism for being clothed in the Salvation and Righteousness from GOD.

Isaiah 61:10 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] I will greatly rejoice in Jehovah, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with a garland, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

 

[popeye]

The person you are talking to is deceased. It does not appear that he was raptured.

Yes,and yep

 

[VCO]

So you think I'm not born again because I refuse to believe your Traditions of Man that make void the very Word of God??? What arrogance!!!! As for the rest of your post, you have showed and proved absolutely NOTHING!!

Dan 7: [SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came...

Can you not see that the Saints are on earth being persecuted by Satan's forces (Islamic jihadists) and that has started already in Iraq and Syria with Christians being slaughtered there, in Egypt, in Kenya, in Libya and other places where we are told it will happen? Nothing tells us that any saint is raptured off to heaven. The only saints in heaven are those who died.

Christians are dying and being beheaded all over the Sea region of Rev 13 now. These are the same people who you cite from Rev 20:4-6. They are not left behind after some rapture, are they???? But you don't see this because you are still here, therefore the Tribulation can't possibly start in your arrogant self-centered mind. Go tell that to those ISIS is beheading.

So tell us then PlainWord, how can you tell you are Born Again?

The O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints will be Called Out by the Archangel to meet out Bridegroom in the Air, (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:51-55) following perfectly the Jewish Wedding Tradition. We will Journey with our Bridegroom to the New Dwelling Place that HE has built for us in His Father's House, (John 14:2-3), and again that comes right out of the old wedding traditions that are still being kept by Jews today. That final Week of Year's is the required Week Long Wedding Ceremony, it is Week of Years that is the Peace Treaty that Antichrist makes with Israel and her enemies, (Dan. 9:27). And the later Half of the Antichrist's Peace Treaty, he personally breaks it and becomes the most blood thirsty Dictator that has ever lived, (Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 20:4-6). There the spirits of the Tribulation Saints will be arriving Arriving Under the Altar at the Wedding of the Lamb, as they are Martyred. So all three groups of Saints are part of the Bride of Christ, HIS ASSEMBLY that HE has been building.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


Just so you know, what ISIS has been doing is only a tiny glimpse of how BAD the Antichrist is going to treat Believes in the Great Tribulation. He may very well kill every last remaining believer, except the 144,000, the way I understand it.

 

[PlainWord]

So tell us then PlainWord, how can you tell you are Born Again?

The O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints will be Called Out by the Archangel to meet out Bridegroom in the Air, (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:51-55) following perfectly the Jewish Wedding Tradition. We will Journey with our Bridegroom to the New Dwelling Place that HE has built for us in His Father's House, (John 14:2-3), and again that comes right out of the old wedding traditions that are still being kept by Jews today. That final Week of Year's is the required Week Long Wedding Ceremony, it is Week of Years that is the Peace Treaty that Antichrist makes with Israel and her enemies, (Dan. 9:27). And the later Half of the Antichrist's Peace Treaty, he personally breaks it and becomes the most blood thirsty Dictator that has ever lived, (Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 20:4-6). There the spirits of the Tribulation Saints will be arriving Arriving Under the Altar at the Wedding of the Lamb, as they are Martyred. So all three groups of Saints are part of the Bride of Christ, HIS ASSEMBLY that HE has been building.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;


Just so you know, what ISIS has been doing is only a tiny glimpse of how BAD the Antichrist is going to treat Believes in the Great Tribulation. He may very well kill every last remaining believer, except the 144,000, the way I understand it.

You owe me an apology. Even though you believe in an unBiblical Pre-Trib Rapture, I never once questioned your salvation as you are doing with me. I find no passage that tells us one must believe in an unsupported Biblical doctrine of an additional earlier return of Christ (not found) or one cannot be saved. Show me the passage which teaches salvation is based on when you think Christ returns.

As for your belief, you base it on two passages from Paul which you cite (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:51-55). Do either of these passages locate the Return of Christ BEFORE the Tribulation??????? Maybe, just maybe, you misunderstood Paul??? First you misunderstand the Tribulation as the Wrath of God then think since we are not to face the Wrath of God therefore we must be raptured pre-trib. But what if the Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan (as I teach) and God's wrath follows it?? What then? That would change things wouldn't it?

Christ NEVER taught that He returns twice (once before, once after the Tribulation). Christ only taught His Post Tribulation return. However, Christ teaches that He taught His disciples everything.

John 15:15 ...but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Mark 13: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

So are you calling Christ a liar?? Where does Christ teach of a return before the Tribulation where He gathers all Believers, changes them into spiritual beings and returns them to heaven? He doesn't. You won't find Christ breath a word about it. In fact, Christ makes clear that when He returns, He questions if He will find any faith left on earth.

Luke 18:8...Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Now why would Christ makes such as a statement if He took hundreds of millions of Christians off the planet in a Rapture?

You use the Jewish wedding parable as evidence of a Pre-Trib Rapture. You state:

We will Journey with our Bridegroom to the New Dwelling Place that HE has built for us in His Father's House

No argument here that the above is correct. The argument is over "WHEN" this happens. Do you not realize that Christ does not and will not marry an un-pure bride? Of course you do.

2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

His bride MUST be made pure. This is why 144K "virgins" are selected. The rest must be made pure and we are told how this happens.

Zech 13:9 I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

Dan 12:9...“Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, made white, and refined...

There is a reason why those "pure" believers who are living in flesh bodies are acceptable to be brides - they are purified through tribulation their faith having been tested. This is the reason that those who endure to the end are saved.

Mat 10:22 ...And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Mat 24:13...But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13...And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
2 Tim 2:12...If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

The vast majority are purified by death having received their white robes in heaven.

Rev 6: ...[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,

Rev 7: ...“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:...[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Of course all of the above is talking about Spiritually Pure as in we did not worship idols or false gods, not physically virgin or most of us could not be brides. Abraham's faith was tested. Christ's own faith was tested by Satan in the wilderness. Ever wonder why? WE MUST ALL BE TESTED, our FAITH MUST BE TESTED. Satan is coming to deceive, not the unbeliever as he has them already. Satan is coming to deceive the believer. We must be tempted and pass the test.

James 1:12...Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

 

[PlainWord]

I have a suspicion of what it MIGHT be:

Daniel 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Now you are getting warm. ISLAM is all over Revelation. ISLAM is the Mother of all Harlots and the Abomination of the EARTH whom the (Arab) Kings of the Earth have been fornicating with and been made rich...

 

[PlainWord]

Look at The areas under control of ISIS and the Taliban and look at Nigeria, Ethiopia, Somolia, Burma, Pakistan, China, North Korea, and many other parts of the world; and you will see this already happening.

I believe that the first five seals are already opened; and that the rapture will occur at the opening of the sixth seal.

Close. The 4th seal is being opened now. The seals, Seal the scroll. The details are in the scroll. The Tribulation is the wrath of Satan and corresponds to the 4-5th Seal. Trumpet 6 ends the Tribulation.

Trumpet 6 is when God's army comes and kills the Muslim world which by then will be 1/3 of the population. Trumpet 6, Seal 6 and Bowl 6 all describe the same event. Here's the proof:

Joel 2:2...A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them...

Rev 9:16...[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them....

Joel 2:4...Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run....

Rev 9:17...And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. ...

Joel 2:3...A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness...

Rev 9:18...By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths... [SUP]19 [/SUP]For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm

Joel 2:5...With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array.

The victims are terrified. This army cannot be stopped. This is God's army.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before them the people writhe in pain;All faces are drained of color.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like men of war; Every one marches in formation, And they do not break ranks.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They do not push one another; Every one marches in his own column. Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They run to and fro in the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter at the windows like a thief.

Now we see the 6th Seal Open. Satan's Great Tribulation is Over. God's Army has stopped it:

Mat 24: [SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.

Rev 6: [SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

 

[MarcR]

Close. The 4th seal is being opened now. The seals, Seal the scroll. The details are in the scroll. The Tribulation is the wrath of Satan and corresponds to the 4-5th Seal. Trumpet 6 ends the Tribulation.

Trumpet 6 is when God's army comes and kills the Muslim world which by then will be 1/3 of the population. Trumpet 6, Seal 6 and Bowl 6 all describe the same event. Here's the proof:

Joel 2:2...A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them...

Rev 9:16...[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them....

Joel 2:4...Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run....

Rev 9:17...And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. ...

Joel 2:3...A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness...

Rev 9:18...By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths... [SUP]19 [/SUP]For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm

Joel 2:5...With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array.

The victims are terrified. This army cannot be stopped. This is God's army.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Before them the people writhe in pain;All faces are drained of color.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like men of war; Every one marches in formation, And they do not break ranks.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They do not push one another; Every one marches in his own column. Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They run to and fro in the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter at the windows like a thief.

Now we see the 6th Seal Open. Satan's Great Tribulation is Over. God's Army has stopped it:

Mat 24: [SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Joel 2:10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.

Rev 6: [SUP]12 [/SUP]I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

We agree that the end is near anyway.

 

[VCO]

You owe me an apology. Even though you believe in an unBiblical Pre-Trib Rapture, I never once questioned your salvation as you are doing with me. I find no passage that tells us one must believe in an unsupported Biblical doctrine of an additional earlier return of Christ (not found) or one cannot be saved. Show me the passage which teaches salvation is based on when you think Christ returns.

As for your belief, you base it on two passages from Paul which you cite (1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor. 15:51-55). Do either of these passages locate the Return of Christ BEFORE the Tribulation??????? Maybe, just maybe, you misunderstood Paul??? First you misunderstand the Tribulation as the Wrath of God then think since we are not to face the Wrath of God therefore we must be raptured pre-trib. But what if the Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan (as I teach) and God's wrath follows it?? What then? That would change things wouldn't it?

Christ NEVER taught that He returns twice (once before, once after the Tribulation). Christ only taught His Post Tribulation return. However, Christ teaches that He taught His disciples everything.

John 15:15 ...but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Mark 13: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

So are you calling Christ a liar?? Where does Christ teach of a return before the Tribulation where He gathers all Believers, changes them into spiritual beings and returns them to heaven? He doesn't. You won't find Christ breath a word about it. In fact, Christ makes clear that when He returns, He questions if He will find any faith left on earth.

Luke 18:8...Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

Now why would Christ makes such as a statement if He took hundreds of millions of Christians off the planet in a Rapture?

You use the Jewish wedding parable as evidence of a Pre-Trib Rapture. You state:



No argument here that the above is correct. The argument is over "WHEN" this happens. Do you not realize that Christ does not and will not marry an un-pure bride? Of course you do.

2 Corinthians 11:2

For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

His bride MUST be made pure. This is why 144K "virgins" are selected. The rest must be made pure and we are told how this happens.

Zech 13:9 I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

Dan 12:9...“Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, made white, and refined...

There is a reason why those "pure" believers who are living in flesh bodies are acceptable to be brides - they are purified through tribulation their faith having been tested. This is the reason that those who endure to the end are saved.

Mat 10:22 ...And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Mat 24:13...But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13...And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
2 Tim 2:12...If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

The vast majority are purified by death having received their white robes in heaven.

Rev 6: ...[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,

Rev 7: ...“These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 19:...[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Of course all of the above is talking about Spiritually Pure as in we did not worship idols or false gods, not physically virgin or most of us could not be brides. Abraham's faith was tested. Christ's own faith was tested by Satan in the wilderness. Ever wonder why? WE MUST ALL BE TESTED, our FAITH MUST BE TESTED. Satan is coming to deceive, not the unbeliever as he has them already. Satan is coming to deceive the believer. We must be tempted and pass the test.

James 1:12...Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

How is asking if you can explain how you know you are Born Again, offensive? I am sorry if you find that Offensive, but I find it to be pure JOY whenever someone asks me to share my testimony and explain Born Again. I ask, because I do not sense your spirit ministering to my spirit, and we are told to "test the spirits" whenever someone is teaching things that are contrary to what we believe.

No, one does not have to believe in the Pre-Trib position, to be saved. However I think that is a VERY DANGEROUS Theology to be teaching. Which brings us to another misunderstanding about my position, and that is: NO, the primary proof about the pre-trib position is not primarily based on what GOD inspired Paul to Write, but rather on the Teachings of Jesus HIMSELF.

Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.


They are told at the time of CHRIST to "Watch therefore" or "Therefore be alert" - THAT IS AS PRE-TRIB as you can GET.

I also notice that 50% of those who were SURE they were with the Bride, had not even established an inner personal Relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord, which means MASTER.

Revelation 3:10 (YLT)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from{NOT THROUGH}the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Yes I think a lot of those who miss the calling out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, do become the beheaded Tribulation Saints, because they will then understand why their relationship with the LORD was not an inner personally KNOWING HIM.