Hebrews 6:1-6

[MarcR]

The view of apostleship wont matter, but believing in eternal salvation as opposed to you can lose it will matter.......to bad for those who trust in their own abilities, works and self over the work of Christ.....

I certainly agree; but if Ken is not persuadable then there needs to be a point at which I am willing to accept the fact

 

[dcontroversal]

I certainly agree; but if Ken is not persuadable then there needs to be a point at which I am willing to accept the fact

I fully agree for sure.....!

 

[Zmouth]

[SUP]1[/SUP] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2[/SUP] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And this will we do, if God permit.

( Now, why would the writer of Hebrews tell us to leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ, and repentance of our sins and of Faith toward God, and of baptisms, and the resurrection from the dead, etc.? After all, isn't that what Christianity is all about, the doctrine of Christ, Faith toward God,etc.? At first glance it looks like he's telling us to leave or move away from the doctrine of Christ. Maybe, the answer can be found in the next 3 verses.)

Maybe the writer of Hebrews was saying that the believers in Jesus would not have to leave behind the principles of the new covenant as they did the old covenant as they where moved to perfection in Christ by the immutable truth of God.

Speaking of which, who exactly was the writer of Hebrews? Some say it was written by the hand of God himself who had appeared in the flesh that if might be fulfilled that which was written in 1 Tim 3:16-4:1And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How many of the OSAS here are baptist or once were? please I would rally like to Know. Also If any one culd help with some answers . I thought that the canonization of the bible was made at the counsel of Nicene or something. Is that true and if it is who was in authority then? I thought Constantine maybe. Please respond if you know. thank you.

former baptist here

As for canonization. Peter mentions pauls writings as scripture. The letters were copied and sent to all the churches, we can see this/ So when it was done, The bible was put together.

All Nicine did was determine what THEY considered scripture. But scripture was completed LONG before they decided what was or not to be included.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The view of apostleship wont matter, but believing in eternal salvation as opposed to you can lose it will matter.......to bad for those who trust in their own abilities, works and self over the work of Christ.....

Once again I do not trust in myself or my works, so for the 100th time please stop making that false accusation toward me. Second the bible clearly says more then once some will fall away, wander away, depart from the faith in Jesus Christ, and those that do will not have eternal life unless they repent and come back to the Lord. James shows this clearly, as well does Paul in his constant warning to believers that they have to continue and stay firm in the faith to received eternal life. Falling back to unbelief by disobedience in willfully sinning again is one of those main ways discussed.

I certainly agree; but if Ken is not persuadable then there needs to be a point at which I am willing to accept the fact

I will not be persuaded to something that speaks differently then what the bible shows, as nowhere does it show to different types of Apostles and nowhere does it say if a person falls away they still will receive eternal life even if they don't come back in repentance. It shows they have to repent and come back to the Lord....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry it took so long to respond. Your statement regarding the use of "if" in connection with an aorist tense verb made me somewhat curious so I have had to do a little reviewing in the use of the aorist tense to see if it was grammatically legitimate to preface this aorist verb with "if". I could find nothing in the rules of Greek grammar that would permit this. From what I see regarding the use of the aorist is that it almost always represents a statement of fact that is connected with a past action. Grammatically speaking, the addition of "if" in Heb. 6:6 is an introduction of a foreign element into the grammar so it must then be recognized as a statement of fact rather than a hypothetical supposition.

I think you need to study some more. I already gave an example of where the same type of aorist verb was used in a hypothetical situation "if your brother sins against you"

so there must be something missing in your studies

I really no not think 1 Corinthians 3:12 addresses this example of Heb 6. The Hebrew is not talking about the works of those who had fallen away being burned up. He is addressing their spiritual condition both prior to their fallen state and after having fallen away. Their fate is portrayed as one of judgement and destruction. This is the same thing he addresses in 10:29. He speaks of those who had "trampled underfoot the Son of God." These were not pagan unbelievers, these were Christians who had abandoned the faith. These are those whom he affirms had once been sanctified but now are under judgment awaiting the vengeance of God. All they have left to look forward to is fearful retribution. Peter describes these in 2Pet 2 as those who had abandoned the right way, and had gone astray. He calls them cursed or doomed children.

Why not. they both were talking about what a persons work produces.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

so just like in 1 cor. you have works which receives reward (blessing) and works which are burned.

and then you take the rest of heb 6 into account. and the thought of the author saying salvation can be lost just does not fit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again I do not trust in myself or my works, so for the 100th time please stop making that false accusation toward me.

so you have changed you mind, and you now believe in eternal security? that salvation cannot be lost based on what you do or do not do?

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe you are convicted about your belief...I never named you and or said anything about you in my post....so.....! And for the record...if you say you can lose it, or you have to maintain it, or have to get it back if it can be lost then by default YOU are doing something=works no matter how many times you deny this base truth......

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

The view of apostleship wont matter, but believing in eternal salvation as opposed to you can lose it will matter.......to bad for those who trust in their own abilities, works and self over the work of Christ.....<----where do you see your NAME listed.......?

Once again I do not trust in myself or my works, so for the 100th time please stop making that false accusation toward me. Second the bible clearly says more then once some will fall away, wander away, depart from the faith in Jesus Christ, and those that do will not have eternal life unless they repent and come back to the Lord. James shows this clearly, as well does Paul in his constant warning to believers that they have to continue and stay firm in the faith to received eternal life. Falling back to unbelief by disobedience in willfully sinning again is one of those main ways discussed.







I will not be persuaded to something that speaks differently then what the bible shows, as nowhere does it show to different types of Apostles and nowhere does it say if a person falls away they still will receive eternal life even if they don't come back in repentance. It shows they have to repent and come back to the Lord....

 

[mailmandan]

And that is the meaning of counterfeit faith, no root of rebirth into eternal life, which faiith does not and did not save them, which is why they apostasize (Lk 8:13).

Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away certainly does not sound like saving belief to me. IN CONTRAST TO vs. 15 - But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Verse 18 says - Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

 

[forsha]

Problem once again with using this passage from Hebrews is that it is saying those who refuse to repent and come back to the Lord are putting Him to an open shame for themselves. Not that it is impossible to fall away and not end up with salvation. Read verse 6 real closely;

[SUP]6[/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

They are doing the shame to themselves by refusing to repent of their ways, as they believe one of two things; either they don't have to repent or that they love darkness more then light. You are right on the first half though that true believers do not have to worry about repenting again and the laying on of hands as they will be walking properly in the faith, and a one time baptism is all one needs.
But the bible makes it clear by Jesus, Holy Spirit, Paul, and James that many will fall away from the faith and they will not end up with eternal life unless they come back to the Lord.



Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Colossians 1:22-23
In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.



James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Kenneth, I can see where you are coming from, but without realizing it, you are going back to the old law of works to save yourself eternally. Jesus finished the work of redeeming those that God gave him, however, those that he died for do still commit sins that will not take away their eternal salvation, but the sins we commit will separate us from our fellowship with God, until we repent and are restored. This result of repenting is referred to in the scriptures as a salvation (deliverance) In the past I was a member of the church of Christ, also a deacon, and was ask to be an Elder, but refused, so I do understand your platform and it is not the correct one, in my opinion.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Maybe you are convicted about your belief...I never named you and or said anything about you in my post....so.....! And for the record...if you say you can lose it, or you have to maintain it, or have to get it back if it can be lost then by default YOU are doing something=works no matter how many times you deny this base truth......

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

The view of apostleship wont matter, but believing in eternal salvation as opposed to you can lose it will matter.......to bad for those who trust in their own abilities, works and self over the work of Christ.....<----where do you see your NAME listed.......?

I am not convicted at all by what I believe, and to try and back out of what you said by saying you never named me has a flaw to it. That flaw is that your response was to MarcR who was addressing me in his response, so therefore your false premise of saying trust in their self and their own works can be traced back to who is being addressed. Not to mention it is the same false accusation you have constantly made on me and others who do not agree with your stance.
Second once again how many times does the bible have to say a person who falls away, wanders away, or depart from the faith will not have eternal life before you start believing those scriptures in His word. A person who has no faith in Christ, or returns to unbelief does not have eternal life abiding in them !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

I am not convicted at all by what I believe, and to try and back out of what you said by saying you never named me has a flaw to it. That flaw is that your response was to MarcR who was addressing me in his response, so therefore your false premise of saying trust in their self and their own works can be traced back to who is being addressed. Not to mention it is the same false accusation you have constantly made on me and others who do not agree with your stance.
Second once again how many times does the bible have to say a person who falls away, wanders away, or depart from the faith will not have eternal life before you start believing those scriptures in His word. A person who has no faith in Christ, or returns to unbelief does not have eternal life abiding in them !!!

Well your problem is three fold....

1. You judged my motive and assume I had you in mind
2. When I posted my general statement I was honestly thinking of all who trust into their works
3. The bible teaches SONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP......SONSHIP by birth is ETERNAL and cannot be changed, lost or taken away.....FELLOWSHIP can be broken by sin and a contrary walk....

 

[oldhermit]

I think you need to study some more. I already gave an example of where the same type of aorist verb was used in a hypothetical situation "if your brother sins against you" so there must be something missing in your studies

I would be the first to admit that my education in Greek is lacking in some areas, but this is not one of them. Neither of the two example you gave me in Luke support your contention because in both cases the 'if' is already supplied in the Greek and does not have to be added to convey the conditional aorist. You should have seen that for yourself. All you had to do is read the text in the Greek. I looked at quite a number of examples in the NT where verbs are translated as conditionals but in every example it is always either a verb that is a present participle or εἴ is already supplied in the text. There is only one example I have found where an aorist verb is translated as a conditional where the εἴ is not already supplied in the text and that is Luke 9:25. Here, the if is added by most translators because even without the εἴ the text still remains conditional. This is nowhere near the same construction we find in Heb 6:4-6. Not one of the aorist tense verb in these verses are translated as a conditional verb yet, suddenly you want to disrupt the continuity of the structure by supplying "if" only in the clause "if they fall away". Not only is this unwarranted is also inconsistent with the flow of the other aorist verbs.

Why not. they both were talking about what a persons work produces.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

so just like in 1 cor. you have works which receives reward (blessing) and works which are burned.

and then you take the rest of heb 6 into account. and the thought of the author saying salvation can be lost just does not fit.

The 'why not' is answered in the fact that it is the individual that is being spoken of as under condemnation. Can you not see this from 10:29? "How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." It is the one who has fallen away who is falling into the hands of the living God and what awaits him is the vengeance of the Almighty and he will be repaid for his works. Like it or not behavior/works have consequences for the individual. I do not know how much clearer the writer can say this.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth, I can see where you are coming from, but without realizing it, you are going back to the old law of works to save yourself eternally. Jesus finished the work of redeeming those that God gave him, however, those that he died for do still commit sins that will not take away their eternal salvation, but the sins we commit will separate us from our fellowship with God, until we repent and are restored. This result of repenting is referred to in the scriptures as a salvation (deliverance) In the past I was a member of the church of Christ, also a deacon, and was ask to be an Elder, but refused, so I do understand your platform and it is not the correct one, in my opinion.

That is false teaching as the bible clearly says a person can not continue to live a lifestyle of deliberate willful sinning and still have eternal life. The bible is very clear on this matter, and the Apostle Paul says continuing in willful sinning is living a carnal lifestyle. Paul says walking carnally leads to spiritual death and not eternal life.
Yes believers do still sin here and there, but we can not continue to constantly sin deliberately everyday of our lives. Those who say you can and still have eternal life are walking in a manner of serving two masters in which the bible says we can not do to receive eternal life. You either serve sin that will lead to spiritual death, or you serve righteousness of Christ leading to eternal life. You can not serve both !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would be the first to admit that my education in Greek is lacking in some areas, but this is not one of them. Neither of the two example you gave me in Luke support your contention because in both cases the 'if' is already supplied in the Greek and does not have to be added to convey the conditional aorist. You should have seen that for yourself. All you had to do is read the text in the Greek. I looked at quite a number of examples in the NT where verbs are translated as conditionals but in every example it is always either a verb that is a present participle or εἴ is already supplied in the text. There is only one example I have found where an aorist verb is translated as a conditional where the εἴ is not already supplied in the text and that is Luke 9:25. Here, the if is added by most translators because even without the εἴ the text still remains conditional. This is nowhere near the same construction we find in Heb 6:4-6. Not one of the aorist tense verb in these verses are translated as a conditional verb yet, suddenly you want to disrupt the continuity of the structure by supplying "if" only in the clause of "if they fall away". Not only is this unwarranted is also inconsistent with the flow of the of the other aorist verbs.

well then I will have to look when I get home. Because the logos text in my phone does not show the if in the text. I could not even click on the word if in either case to bring up the word study. Which usually indicates the word is NOT in the greek.

The 'why not' is answered in the fact that it is the individual that is being spoken of as under condemnation. Can you not see this from 10:29? "How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." It is the one who has fallen away who is falling into the hands of the living God and what awaits him is the vengeance of the Almighty and he will be repaid for his works. Like it or not behavior/works have consequences for the individual. I do not know how much clearer the writer can say this.

what does this have to do with the rest of Chapter 6?

You do not think a person who comes in to your church, hears grace, says he accepts it (even though he did not) and then tried to insert works into the equation is not going to suffer a worse fate than the one who rejected it outright?

Heb 10 is talking about those who claim to receive grace and continue in willful sin, Your going to tell me they were ever saved? Lets get real now.

heb 6 is talking about going back to law (which claims salvation can be lost) Heb 10 is talking about continuing to live in sin after you supposedly recieved the covenant which sanctifies us.

either way, you still have not responded to the rest of chapter 6.

What hope does one have if they can lose, or throw away salvation? there is no hope. all hope would be based on self not God.

 

[forsha]

This passage in Hebrews is not saying that those who refuse to repent and come back to the Lord are the ones crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting Him to an open shame. For you to say that just shows how people can so twist and pervert what the scripture actually says because they don't want to have to accept it. The biblical teaching goes against their personal theology. This is what the verse say:

[SUP]4[/SUP] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5[/SUP] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6[/SUP] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It says, it is impossible to renew people to repentance who have fallen away. Hello! Don't try to twist the scriptures just because the scriptures, go against your personal dogma.

My belief of verse 6 is that it is saying, if a person has been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, to understand the doctrine and is a member of the physical church that Christ set up when he was on the earth, if they should turn away from the church and practice another doctrine, usually for personal gain, can never be restored to being a member of the church. I believe that all of God's elect are members of the invisible church, but only those that have been revealed the doctrine of Christ by the revelation of the Holy Spirit are members of the physical church. Not even one of those that Jesus died for will ever lose their eternal salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is false teaching as the bible clearly says a person can not continue to live a lifestyle of deliberate willful sinning and still have eternal life. The bible is very clear on this matter, and the Apostle Paul says continuing in willful sinning is living a carnal lifestyle. Paul says walking carnally leads to spiritual death and not eternal life.
Yes believers do still sin here and there, but we can not continue to constantly sin deliberately everyday of our lives. Those who say you can and still have eternal life are walking in a manner of serving two masters in which the bible says we can not do to receive eternal life. You either serve sin that will lead to spiritual death, or you serve righteousness of Christ leading to eternal life. You can not serve both !!!

Who do you suppose the following are....

1. The vessels not so honorable STILL FOUND IN THE HOUSE
2. The ones who have works of wood, hay and stubble WHO ARE STILL SAVED YET SO AS BY FIRE
3. THE ONES cut LOOSE for the destruction of the FLESH so that the spirit may be saved in the day of judgment

Sorry, but you have no clue.....a son is a son by birth and that can never change period. But fellowship can be broken by many things, yet the SON still remains a SON.......

So, let me get this straight......to KEEP salvation, or regain salvation if it could be lost what must you do....key words are.....

WHAT MUST YOU DO<-----Seems like works or self preservation to me.

 

[SarahM777]

That is false teaching as the bible clearly says a person can not continue to live a lifestyle of deliberate willful sinning and still have eternal life. The bible is very clear on this matter, and the Apostle Paul says continuing in willful sinning is living a carnal lifestyle. Paul says walking carnally leads to spiritual death and not eternal life.
Yes believers do still sin here and there, but we can not continue to constantly sin deliberately everyday of our lives. Those who say you can and still have eternal life are walking in a manner of serving two masters in which the bible says we can not do to receive eternal life. You either serve sin that will lead to spiritual death, or you serve righteousness of Christ leading to eternal life. You can not serve both !!!

The problem is that those promote OSAS,in that if one believes that a believer CAN NOT walk away from the faith,can NOT remove themselves from grace,etc etc etc. Their response to God can only then be a FORCED response which CAN NOT be out of love. If it is FORCED then HOW can it be out of LOVE? It is not possible for one to become a robot and for it to be out of TRUE LOVE. There is no scripture that evens indicates that at all in any way,shape or form that that is what happens.

 

[SarahM777]

Who do you suppose the following are....

1. The vessels not so honorable STILL FOUND IN THE HOUSE
2. The ones who have works of wood, hay and stubble WHO ARE STILL SAVED YET SO AS BY FIRE
3. THE ONES cut LOOSE for the destruction of the FLESH so that the spirit may be saved in the day of judgment

Sorry, but you have no clue.....a son is a son by birth and that can never change period. But fellowship can be broken by many things, yet the SON still remains a SON.......

So, let me get this straight......to KEEP salvation, or regain salvation if it could be lost what must you do....key words are.....

WHAT MUST YOU DO<-----Seems like works or self preservation to me.

A son may still be son,but a DEAD SON IS STILL A DEAD SON. And a DEAD SON HAS NO LIFE. The question NOT whether the son is a son or not,the REAL question is the son DEAD or ALIVE.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well your problem is three fold....

1. You judged my motive and assume I had you in mind
2. When I posted my general statement I was honestly thinking of all who trust into their works
3. The bible teaches SONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP......SONSHIP by birth is ETERNAL and cannot be changed, lost or taken away.....FELLOWSHIP can be broken by sin and a contrary walk....

I did not judge nothing as you have a misconception of what it means to judge.
I stated a fact that your response was to MarcR who was addressing me, and you have in the past multiple times made this same statement toward me and as well to others. So stating a fact of what one has done is not judging them, as judging would be making a final outcome on another on rather they are saved or not and where they are going. Not pointing out their faulty debate toward others, and not even pointing out how they are still sinning by His word so that they can work on changing that area of their life. Using God's word to show your sin is not judging, as judging would be just making a final stance on where you believe a person is going to end up without edifying them with His word.

Next you can not have fellowship if you don't have sonship, and I don't even know what scripture you are even talking about as I have never heard such a thing if separating of the two until I got on this site. You can not be a believer in Christ (sonship) if you have no fellowship with Him.

We are grafted in as sons by our belief, but once again the bible makes it very clear that if you go back to unbelief as it clearly says some will then they will not have eternal life. So even using your stance of sonship and fellowship, falling away from the faith (depart from) still holds firm. What you confuse between the two is that any sin we commit after coming to the Lord will not cost salvation if that sin is repented/confessed of. However if a person continues, or returns to a life of deliberate willful sinning everyday in their life with no repentance/confession, those will not receive eternal life.

Apostle Paul makes this very clear that us being grafted in is only by our belief in Christ, but if we do not continue in that belief that places under God's grace we to will be cut off. <-----Paul said this....