Hebrews 6:1-6

[dcontroversal]

A son may still be son,but a DEAD SON IS STILL A DEAD SON. And a DEAD SON HAS NO LIFE.

Sorry you don't believe God and the numerous times he uses the word ETERNAL and EVERLASTING....

I suppose your definition of eternal and everlasting is TEMPORARY.....

You guys are so deceived and blind.....you say and teach one can lose ETERNAL LIFE by sin yet John said ONE born from above DOES not SIN...WHY...BECAUSE it is the SPIRIT that has been born again, eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified positionally IN CHRIST..it is bound in a BODY OF SIN THAT IS DEAD BECAUSE of SIN and my life is HID within CHRIST......too bad for you when you stand in the group that brags about all of the wonderful things you have done for Christ which you perceive is your TICKET and right to enter the kingdom.......Good luck with your CAINOLOGY as he offered his WORKS and was rejected.....ABEL offered FAITH in the BLOOD as was deemed righteous and received!

 

[forsha]

There you go again. the first sentence of your post: "it is impossible for those who have fallen away to repent". But that's not what I said nor what the scripture says. It doesn't say it is impossible to repent. It says it is impossible to renew them to repentance. The reason it is impossible to renew them to repentance is because in order for somebody to need to be forgiven again for their sins another blood sacrifice would have to be made for them. It means that Jesus would have to come back in the flesh and suffer and die for them a second time. That's why it says they would be crucifying the Son of God afresh and putting Him to an open shame. You do have to repent of your sins, but you only have to do it once and then your sins are forgiven forever. It's not something you have to keep repeating or else Jesus would have to keep repeating His suffering and dieing for you.

I am in agreement with most of what you say in your posts. The one time that Jesus erased the sins of those that he died for, he secured their eternal salvation, and nothing, NOTHING, can separate us from that security, however, we still commit sins as we live our lives here in this world, and they will separate us from our fellowship with God, until we repent of them. When we have been restored our fellowship, is referred to in the scriptures as a salvation, not eternally, but here in this world, being delivered (saved) from the consequence of that sin.

 

[dcontroversal]

I did not judge nothing as you have a misconception of what it means to judge.
I stated a fact that your response was to MarcR who was addressing me, and you have in the past multiple times made this same statement toward me and as well to others. So stating a fact of what one has done is not judging them, as judging would be making a final outcome on another on rather they are saved or not and where they are going. Not pointing out their faulty debate toward others, and not even pointing out how they are still sinning by His word so that they can work on changing that area of their life. Using God's word to show your sin is not judging, as judging would be just making a final stance on where you believe a person is going to end up without edifying them with His word.

Next you can not have fellowship if you don't have sonship, and I don't even know what scripture you are even talking about as I have never heard such a thing if separating of the two until I got on this site. You can not be a believer in Christ (sonship) if you have no fellowship with Him.

We are grafted in as sons by our belief, but once again the bible makes it very clear that if you go back to unbelief as it clearly says some will then they will not have eternal life. So even using your stance of sonship and fellowship, falling away from the faith (depart from) still holds firm. What you confuse between the two is that any sin we commit after coming to the Lord will not cost salvation if that sin is repented/confessed of. However if a person continues, or returns to a life of deliberate willful sinning everyday in their life with no repentance/confession, those will not receive eternal life.

Apostle Paul makes this very clear that us being grafted in is only by our belief in Christ, but if we do not continue in that belief that places under God's grace we to will be cut off. <-----Paul said this....

More blindness on your part and your are still judging me and my motive for what I said, and calling me a liar....I know exactly what I was thinking when I wrote what I wrote so keep believing whatever you want to believe....I will be more than willing to wait till we stand before God and you get rebuked for wrongly attributing something to me that I did not do....

Based upon what you are saying if I was thinking of you I would have had no problem in naming you in the posts....so speak to the hand bro....as you accusation is false and tells me exactly who is leading you!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Who do you suppose the following are....

1. The vessels not so honorable STILL FOUND IN THE HOUSE
2. The ones who have works of wood, hay and stubble WHO ARE STILL SAVED YET SO AS BY FIRE
3. THE ONES cut LOOSE for the destruction of the FLESH so that the spirit may be saved in the day of judgment

Sorry, but you have no clue.....a son is a son by birth and that can never change period. But fellowship can be broken by many things, yet the SON still remains a SON.......

So, let me get this straight......to KEEP salvation, or regain salvation if it could be lost what must you do....key words are.....

WHAT MUST YOU DO<-----Seems like works or self preservation to me.

Those are on how obedient in the faith one is, the more obedient the better the rewards.

This has nothing to do with one who falls away, wanders away, or departs from the faith. These are speaking rewards that are given, and of obedience in the faith.

Then you bring up again the destruction of the flesh from 1 Corinthians 5, and if you read that chapter it has nothing to do with physical death in the flesh. The context of that chapter is Paul carrying over from what the Lord said about handling a sinning brother or sister in Christ. And what Paul is saying here is if the person refuses to give up their sinful ways they are to cast out of the church into the sinful world (handed over to satan). In this process by being shunned by the church would hopefully have the person see the error of their ways and come to repentance.


If you stop believing in Christ, which going back to walking in the flesh is one way, you do not have eternal life, from there to have it again one must repent. The Lord clearly shows this in scripture!!!

 

[forsha]

now, if people could just get to salvation first, before trying to post everything concerning those who are saved.....


claiming promises that they don't have yet,

.....

i.e. there's no worry about laying again a foundation, nor of proceeding from the principles

as long as salvation is still a future if ever accomplishment......



one of the biggest tricks/deceptions of the enemy is getting people to think they are saved, ...... and they get patted on the back by others likewise tricked.....

and they rebel against those who yahweh sends to tell them the truth!

The fact that eternal salvation for those that God gave to Jesus was accomplished on the cross will stand secure, even though they have no knowledge of it until it is revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. When they do understand what Jesus did for them is a salvation, not eternally, but by being revealed of that truth. Salvation is a deliverance, either eternally or timely.

 

[oldhermit]

what does this have to do with the rest of Chapter 6?
You do not think a person who comes in to your church, hears grace, says he accepts it (even though he did not) and then tried to insert works into the equation is not going to suffer a worse fate than the one who rejected it outright?

What I think is quite irrelevant. What these texts reveal is what is important.

Heb 10 is talking about those who claim to receive grace and continue in willful sin, Your going to tell me they were ever saved? Lets get real now.

Now be honest EG. What do you think 10:29 means when the writer says that they had once been sanctified? He does not say they had made any type of claims to this effect but states it as a simple matter of record. They had at some point in the past been made holy, set apart. This does not happen apart from being saved.

heb 6 is talking about going back to law (which claims salvation can be lost) Heb 10 is talking about continuing to live in sin after you supposedly recieved the covenant which sanctifies us.

either way, you still have not responded to the rest of chapter 6.

You are right and in both cased the end result for those is the judgment of God.
Yes I did respond to the rest of chapter six. This parabolic illustration is directed to these who had fallen away and their fate is decreed. As for the rest of the chapter, the writer redirects his attention in verse nine from those who had fallen away to those who had not. The fate of these is also decreed in verse fourteen, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.”

What hope does one have if they can lose, or throw away salvation? there is no hope. all hope would be based on self not God.

Hebrews chapters three and four answer this.

 

[SarahM777]

Sorry you don't believe God and the numerous times he uses the word ETERNAL and EVERLASTING....

I suppose your definition of eternal and everlasting is TEMPORARY.....

You guys are so deceived and blind.....you say and teach one can lose ETERNAL LIFE by sin yet John said ONE born from above DOES not SIN...WHY...BECAUSE it is the SPIRIT that has been born again, eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified positionally IN CHRIST..it is bound in a BODY OF SIN THAT IS DEAD BECAUSE of SIN and my life is HID within CHRIST......too bad for you when you stand in the group that brags about all of the wonderful things you have done for Christ which you perceive is your TICKET and right to enter the kingdom.......Good luck with your CAINOLOGY as he offered his WORKS and was rejected.....ABEL offered FAITH in the BLOOD as was deemed righteous and received!

You're using a WRONG PREMISE to begin with. Can any one be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS WITHOUT FAITH? It a matter of WHETHER REMAINS in the faith or LEAVES the faith. You have changed the parameters of the QUESTION. When one LOSES,TRASHES,or LEAVES the faith then one goes into unbelief and that unbelief CAN NOT SAVE THEM. No ONE WILL BE SAVED IN UNBELIEF. One can REJECT ETERNAL LIFE by rejecting the God that saved them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The problem is that those promote OSAS,in that if one believes that a believer CAN NOT walk away from the faith,can NOT remove themselves from grace,etc etc etc. Their response to God can only then be a FORCED response which CAN NOT be out of love. If it is FORCED then HOW can it be out of LOVE? It is not possible for one to become a robot and for it to be out of TRUE LOVE. There is no scripture that evens indicates that at all in any way,shape or form that that is what happens.

Yes we are not forced to love God.
He wants us to come to Him willingly, and this whole teaching that seems to take a person's freewill away when they become born again is just ridiculous. Their debate if a fruitless one because they will continue to deny the multiple scriptures in the bible that says people can fall away, wander away, depart from the faith and the many more from Paul that says we have to continue in, stand firm in, and hold fast to the faith to receive eternal life.
I posted over 25 scriptures in the NT that say these exact things and they were still denied or twisted to say something they do not. I have even heard the flawed debate of changing a scripture that clearly is speaking on eternal life, being changed by them to say physical life.

 

[forsha]

Yes Dcon it is called faith !!!

If one continues to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ then they have assurance of eternal life.

However if one stops believing in Jesus, hince wanders/falls away from the faith as the bible says in a number of places, then they do not have eternal life unless like James says they come back to Him by repenting.

I have never said a person has to work to earn salvation, nor have I ever said one has to do enough works to get salvation. Two lies told about me in the past.

But the bible does make it clear that fruits(works) of the Spirit are proof of a true faith, and Jesus says every branch that does not produce fruit will be gathered and cast into the pit to be burned (lake of fire).

I have never attacked you personally or made condemning remarks directly toward you, so no I have not gang attacked you as you say.
Apostle Paul clearly says multiple times that we have to continue, stand firm, keep ourselves in the faith to receive eternal life. A person who falls away from the faith if they do not return to the Lord in repentance will not end up with eternal life. The bible is very clear about that, and it has nothing to do with our personal works, but our faith in the Lord. Do you fully trust Him to follow all of His teachings, or do you not trust Him as your Lord? That is the question we must all ask ourselves in the faith, as Apostle John shows in chapters 2-4 of his first epistle. When he shows how one knows they are saved unto salvation if our walk matches those 3 chapters.

Any action on man's part is called works, such as, being baptized, repenting, confessing, accepting, etc. That is called eternal salvation by works.

 

[dcontroversal]

Those are on how obedient in the faith one is, the more obedient the better the rewards.

This has nothing to do with one who falls away, wanders away, or departs from the faith. These are speaking rewards that are given, and of obedience in the faith.

Then you bring up again the destruction of the flesh from 1 Corinthians 5, and if you read that chapter it has nothing to do with physical death in the flesh. The context of that chapter is Paul carrying over from what the Lord said about handling a sinning brother or sister in Christ. And what Paul is saying here is if the person refuses to give up their sinful ways they are to cast out of the church into the sinful world (handed over to satan). In this process by being shunned by the church would hopefully have the person see the error of their ways and come to repentance.


If you stop believing in Christ, which going back to walking in the flesh is one way, you do not have eternal life, from there to have it again one must repent. The Lord clearly shows this in scripture!!!

Now for sure I know you will not acknowledge truth that contradicts your view....... TURN such a one over to Satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH SO that the SPIRIT may be SAVED......<----I suggest you translate this and be honest with what it states......your inability to accept truth that contradicts your view is blinding you to the truth KENNETH!

 

[SarahM777]

Any action on man's part is called works, such as, being baptized, repenting, confessing, accepting, etc. That is called eternal salvation by works.

So none of things ever come out of loving heart that's been change by the Father's love? None of those are responses to His love for us? Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[kennethcadwell]

More blindness on your part and your are still judging me and my motive for what I said, and calling me a liar....I know exactly what I was thinking when I wrote what I wrote so keep believing whatever you want to believe....I will be more than willing to wait till we stand before God and you get rebuked for wrongly attributing something to me that I did not do....

Based upon what you are saying if I was thinking of you I would have had no problem in naming you in the posts....so speak to the hand bro....as you accusation is false and tells me exactly who is leading you!

Well once again your premise is wrong again as we will not be rebuked for each time we sin when we stand before Christ.
What we will get judged on is our works of obedience in the faith, as we will have to give account as believers why we were or were not obedient at points in our life.

The bible says that our sins when repented/confessed of and given remission will never be used against us again, so to say I will be rebuked for my sins as you say is false as that will not happen at judgment. And it is only a sin if I told a lie, which I did not do as you have made those statements toward me multiple times and your response was to MarcR who was responding to me...............

 

[kennethcadwell]

Now for sure I know you will not acknowledge truth that contradicts your view....... TURN such a one over to Satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH SO that the SPIRIT may be SAVED......<----I suggest you translate this and be honest with what it states......your inability to accept truth that contradicts your view is blinding you to the truth KENNETH!

I do know the truth and it is you who are interjecting what is not there.
That scripture has nothing to do with putting a unrepented sinner to death so their spirit can be saved. You must take the context of the whole chapter, and it is speaking of those who are in the church named a brother or sister in Christ who does not want to give up their sinful ways.

Apostle Paul says to cast them out of the church so that their ways does not corrupt others in the body of Christ, and by them being shunned by the church would hopefully lead them to repent of their ways. No repentance = no salvation !!!

Destruction of the flesh is about sinning against the body, as Paul is expounding on what he said in 1 Corinthians 6.
And what he said in we are the temple and if anybody defiles the temple they will be destroyed by God, not given eternal life. You can not be part of His temple if you are not part of the body of believers........

 

[kennethcadwell]

Any action on man's part is called works, such as, being baptized, repenting, confessing, accepting, etc. That is called eternal salvation by works.

By doing those things is called by faith doing them out of love for the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation............

You can not receive eternal life by no other way but through Jesus Christ and obeying His teachings, as His teachings are the milk of the word on how to receive remission of sins and receive salvation. No remission of sins = No salvation !!!

 

[dcontroversal]

You're using a WRONG PREMISE to begin with. Can any one be DECLARED RIGHTEOUS WITHOUT FAITH? It a matter of WHETHER REMAINS in the faith or LEAVES the faith. You have changed the parameters of the QUESTION. When one LOSES,TRASHES,or LEAVES the faith then one goes into unbelief and that unbelief CAN NOT SAVE THEM. No ONE WILL BE SAVED IN UNBELIEF. One can REJECT ETERNAL LIFE by rejecting the God that saved them.

I suggest you read, study and incorporate the following verse......2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not , yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny HIMSELF

 

[dcontroversal]

I do know the truth and it is you who are interjecting what is not there.
That scripture has nothing to do with putting a unrepented sinner to death so their spirit can be saved. You must take the context of the whole chapter, and it is speaking of those who are in the church named a brother or sister in Christ who does not want to give up their sinful ways.

Apostle Paul says to cast them out of the church so that their ways does not corrupt others in the body of Christ, and by them being shunned by the church would hopefully lead them to repent of their ways. No repentance = no salvation !!!

Destruction of the flesh is about sinning against the body, as Paul is expounding on what he said in 1 Corinthians 6.
And what he said in we are the temple and if anybody defiles the temple they will be destroyed by God, not given eternal life. You can not be part of His temple if you are not part of the body of believers........

No the truth is you don't know much bro......the destruction of the flesh = physical death......as long as you fail to acknowledge truth you will remain blind for sure Kenneth...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem is that those promote OSAS,in that if one believes that a believer CAN NOT walk away from the faith,can NOT remove themselves from grace,etc etc etc. Their response to God can only then be a FORCED response which CAN NOT be out of love. If it is FORCED then HOW can it be out of LOVE? It is not possible for one to become a robot and for it to be out of TRUE LOVE. There is no scripture that evens indicates that at all in any way,shape or form that that is what happens.

Thats not true.

Again, How can a person HAVE TRUE FAITH in someone who will NEVER let them down, and walk away from that faith.

To think someone can is to say God is not trustworthy. And that God is not all knowing (because it also says Gods give ETERNAL life to someone HE KNOWS WILL WALK AWAY.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A son may still be son,but a DEAD SON IS STILL A DEAD SON. And a DEAD SON HAS NO LIFE. The question NOT whether the son is a son or not,the REAL question is the son DEAD or ALIVE.

A son is still a son.

Only those who are NOT sons will go to hell. Jesus is not going to cast his ADOPTED son into hell. He adopted them.

I pray you do not adopt any kids. If you do to them what you want God to do to his children, you would not make a very good mother.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes we are not forced to love God.
He wants us to come to Him willingly, and this whole teaching that seems to take a person's freewill away when they become born again is just ridiculous. Their debate if a fruitless one because they will continue to deny the multiple scriptures in the bible that says people can fall away, wander away, depart from the faith and the many more from Paul that says we have to continue in, stand firm in, and hold fast to the faith to receive eternal life.
I posted over 25 scriptures in the NT that say these exact things and they were still denied or twisted to say something they do not. I have even heard the flawed debate of changing a scripture that clearly is speaking on eternal life, being changed by them to say physical life.

More proof that you trust in your own abilities and that your salvation is based upon what YOU do as opposed to what CHRIST HAS DONE......Dude, your gospel is a gospel of self reliance and works......EG is right.....you consistently preach your own abilities to KEEP yourself SAVED....

Key words...WE HAVE TO.........

The bible teaches the following....

WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL.....to say he SAVES us BY FAITH and then we can LOSE it disregards the very words in the statement WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL......your gospel is false period....so keep trusting in your abilities and the WE HAVE TO......while rejecting the abilities of JESUS to do what he said he would do.

 

[SarahM777]

I suggest you read, study and incorporate the following verse......2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not , yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny HIMSELF

Pulling verses OUT OF CONTEXT and leaving OUT ALL the teaching on the subject PROVES nothing. One MUST put everything that scripture teaches about the subject WITHIN the context that is in written. False teachers DON IT ALL THE TIME and it's why we have so much FALSE DOCTRINE.