The bible teaches predestination but not Calvinistic predestination which puts moral culpability upon God. God did not predestine unconditionally certain INDIVIDUALS to be saved leaving the rest to be lost. God predestinated a GROUP called "Christian" and each person chooses to be in this predestinated group or not. If one desires to be saved then he must conditionally be in this predestined group. It's not the individual predestined, it's the group Christian for no individual outside this predestined group can be saved.
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D
Sorry, I don't entirely agree with this view.
I believe in both, that God predestinates and leads who He will, so while there is free will and some "conditions", there is also no changing who is predestined to eternal life.
And I don't agree entirely with the saving of Christians as a group, because anyone can call them self a Christian, it does not necessarily make them one.
If you want to play on words, you can say that Christians are only those who receive the Holy Spirit.. And show plenty of scriptures about Christians.. It would only be arguing whether there are true Christians or not, which I believe there are.
And not to critically analyse your words but, a group is made of individuals.. Each individual must have an experience with God and must have the Holy Spirit in their lives. You cannot get into this group by someone else's experience. Therefore, you, as an individual, must be thought of before the foundation of the world, and predestinated to be a part of this group. And this "group" is actually the Bride.
I believe in both, that God predestinates and leads who He will, so while there is free will and some "conditions", there is also no changing who is predestined to eternal life.
And I don't agree entirely with the saving of Christians as a group, because anyone can call them self a Christian, it does not necessarily make them one.
If you want to play on words, you can say that Christians are only those who receive the Holy Spirit.. And show plenty of scriptures about Christians.. It would only be arguing whether there are true Christians or not, which I believe there are.
And not to critically analyse your words but, a group is made of individuals.. Each individual must have an experience with God and must have the Holy Spirit in their lives. You cannot get into this group by someone else's experience. Therefore, you, as an individual, must be thought of before the foundation of the world, and predestinated to be a part of this group. And this "group" is actually the Bride.
There would be no freewill with Calvinistic predestination for God has forced His choice of who is saved and not saved upon men thereby leaving men with no choice in the matter. This idea makes God morally culpable for the lost.
The group is made up of individuals yet it was not the individual predestined but the group. Can an individual be saved OUTSIDE the group? No, for again, it is the group that is predestined and not the individual making salvation outside the group impossible for the individual meaning the individual was not predestined to salvation. Rom 8:1 Paul said there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. No individual was unconditionally predestined to salvation OUTSIDE Christ Jesus. So the individual must conditionally choose to be in Christ, and no verse says God has chosen for each person which ones will be in or outside of Christ. Those that use their freewill and choose to be baptized are then in Christ, Gal 3:27 making them part of the group.
Some claim they were an individual that God, before the world began, unconditionally predetermined they would be saved but they cannot prove that claim from the bible.
The group is made up of individuals yet it was not the individual predestined but the group. Can an individual be saved OUTSIDE the group? No, for again, it is the group that is predestined and not the individual making salvation outside the group impossible for the individual meaning the individual was not predestined to salvation. Rom 8:1 Paul said there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. No individual was unconditionally predestined to salvation OUTSIDE Christ Jesus. So the individual must conditionally choose to be in Christ, and no verse says God has chosen for each person which ones will be in or outside of Christ. Those that use their freewill and choose to be baptized are then in Christ, Gal 3:27 making them part of the group.
Some claim they were an individual that God, before the world began, unconditionally predetermined they would be saved but they cannot prove that claim from the bible.
D
I am not a Calvinist. The concept of predestination doesn't belong solely to Calvinists, regardless of whether they are the major group sharing this particular view. I dislike the tag.
God does not "force" His choice on anyone. In my first post, I said people are wooed, called, lead etc by God. This is a love story, a very personal and real one for people. There is no 'being forced' into making a choice.
This "making God morally culpable for the lost"... Some vessels are made for dishonour. This is what the original post is about. Some are saved, some are not. Who can say what God should be moral about or how He should or shouldn't be? Forgive me but this is a very 'human' way to look at the scriptures and reason. God doesn't have to be any way that we think is reasonable or moral.
And we we shall have to agree to disagree about the group/individual thing as I don't believe you can get into the group without being predestined to be in it, and you believe anyone can get into it. That's a whole debate there as it is.
And there are many verses about predestination, none saying anything about a 'group' thing.
I believe in a personal, individual experience with God and I believe each of these verses about being called and predestinated is about an individual calling and experience. Ex:
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (He predestines the individual, called each individual, He justifies each individual, He glorifies each individual and they are a part of Him - as brothers. He doesn't say "group", that is an added idea. We aren't saved by group experience; we must have our own relationship with God.)
We could get into a debate about the book of life and whether names can be blotted out etc but I'm not here to "force" or debate my views.
God does not "force" His choice on anyone. In my first post, I said people are wooed, called, lead etc by God. This is a love story, a very personal and real one for people. There is no 'being forced' into making a choice.
This "making God morally culpable for the lost"... Some vessels are made for dishonour. This is what the original post is about. Some are saved, some are not. Who can say what God should be moral about or how He should or shouldn't be? Forgive me but this is a very 'human' way to look at the scriptures and reason. God doesn't have to be any way that we think is reasonable or moral.
And we we shall have to agree to disagree about the group/individual thing as I don't believe you can get into the group without being predestined to be in it, and you believe anyone can get into it. That's a whole debate there as it is.
And there are many verses about predestination, none saying anything about a 'group' thing.
I believe in a personal, individual experience with God and I believe each of these verses about being called and predestinated is about an individual calling and experience. Ex:
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (He predestines the individual, called each individual, He justifies each individual, He glorifies each individual and they are a part of Him - as brothers. He doesn't say "group", that is an added idea. We aren't saved by group experience; we must have our own relationship with God.)
We could get into a debate about the book of life and whether names can be blotted out etc but I'm not here to "force" or debate my views.
H
God does not hate anyone per se......He loves all and gave his only begotten Son for all....having said that.....he knows who will believe and who will not believe...The ones who deny are the vessels of wrath and will face the condemnation and judgment of God because they rejected his only begotten Son and proof of his love for humanity....
God has dealt to every man a measure of faith....the ability to believe
Jesus has died unto sin once, was sinless and yet took our sin upon him
The invisible things testify
All of creation testifies
God has done all of the work and seeks for us to believe and acknowledge the truth
God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth
The people who end up in hell/lake of fire will end up there because they reject the offer of mercy and eternal life dia His Son Jesus Christ......!
STOP your heresy!!! God does NOT love EVERYONE. Eternal life was never "offered" (like free samples at COSTCO).
If "God has done all of the work" then why is eternal life still conditional by needing man to accept
or not accept an "offer"???
Can God fail? According to what you just posted, YES.
I HATE your fake "Jesus".
God has dealt to every man a measure of faith....the ability to believe
Jesus has died unto sin once, was sinless and yet took our sin upon him
The invisible things testify
All of creation testifies
God has done all of the work and seeks for us to believe and acknowledge the truth
God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth
The people who end up in hell/lake of fire will end up there because they reject the offer of mercy and eternal life dia His Son Jesus Christ......!
STOP your heresy!!! God does NOT love EVERYONE. Eternal life was never "offered" (like free samples at COSTCO).
If "God has done all of the work" then why is eternal life still conditional by needing man to accept
or not accept an "offer"???
Can God fail? According to what you just posted, YES.
I HATE your fake "Jesus".