Hebrews 6:1-6

[valiant]

The point is they WEREN'T PLUCKED OUT of His hands,they WALKED AWAY FROM HIM. That is one huge difference. One that walks is a MATTER OF THE HEART.

But Jesus also said THEY WILL NEVER PERISH . That means He won't let them walk away from Him permanently. He is a God of His word.

this is the will of Him Who sent me that of all Whom He has given Me (whether walkers or talkers or stalkers) I should LOSE NOTHING but raise them up at the last day. (John 6.39)

Couldn't be clearer if you trust Him

 

[Elin]

But isn't faith the gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) which accompanies rebirth?

And rebirth is the transformation (metamorphoo) from spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life) to eternal life (Jn 5:24, 6:54) by grace through the gift of faith (Eph 2:8-9),
transformation from an enemy of God (Ro 5:10) to an adopted child of God (Ro 8:16; Eph 1:5),
as the transformation (metamorphosis) from a caterpillar to a butterfly.

And, as in the natural order, one can't be unborn after they are born,
or cease being an adopted child, for they have the same legal status as a natural child, neither being changeable,
nor can a butterfly return to being a caterpillar.

The gift of faith, which is true faith, does not return to unbelief, anymore than a butterfly returns to being a caterpillar.
What "dies" is counterfeit faith, which had no root of rebirth and falls away in the time of testing (Lk 8:13).
Apostasy from one's profession of faith shows one's faith was counterfeit (1Jn 2:19).

God's saving gifts of rebirth, faith, repentance (2Tim 2:25 Ac 11:18, 5:31), justification/righteousness (Ro 4:17) are irrevocable.
And it is God who uses many ways, including exhortations and warnings, chastisements and trials, to see to it that they are nourished and do grow.
But God's irrevocable gifts cannot "die" and return to unbelief, as the butterfly cannot return to its former state.

Sorry Elin,

But singles verses taken out of context can change the meaning of the verses.

Your assertion is without merit if you do not demonstrate its truth.

It would be helpful if you demonstrated your assertion by showing how the meanings of the verses given above are changed by their context, being true to the words of the texts.

God DOES NOT CHANGE.

Agreed. . .just as parents do not change when they go from milk, to soft food, to solid food in feeding their baby.

It was the plan from the beginning.

 

[Elin]

If anyone can show from scripture that a RIGHTEOUS PERSON is ever an UNBELIEVER please show it.

Your premise is wrong. . .Ro 3:9-12, 19-20; Ps 14:1-3, 53:1-3, Ecc 7:20.

 

[Elin]

God justifies the unrighteous (Ro 4:5) with his gift of righteousness/justification (Ro 4:17), which causes them to discontinue their unrighteousness.

Those who habitually practice unrighteousness show that they have never been justified (declared "not guilty," by grace through the gifts of faith--Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3 and repentance--2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31), sin forgiven, which is salvation (Lk 1:77).

Explain the meaning of these Scriptures, being true to their words and context.

1 Cor 6:9 says the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. This verse is a statement of fact, not a straw man.

Non-responsive. . .

Your erroneous doctrine cannot explain them.

HINT: Ge 15:6

 

[Elin]

But isn't faith the gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) which accompanies rebirth?

And rebirth is the transformation (metamorphoo) from spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life) to eternal life (Jn 5:24, 6:54) by grace through the gift of faith,
transformation from an enemy of God to an adopted child of God,
as the transformation (metamorphosis) from a caterpillar to a butterfly.

And, as in the natural order, one can't be unborn after they are born,
or cease being an adopted child, for they have the same legal status as a natural child, neither being changeable,
nor can a butterfly return to being a caterpillar.

The gift of faith, which is true faith, does not return to unbelief, anymore than a butterfly returns to being a caterpillar.
What "dies" is counterfeit faith, which had no root of rebirth and falls away in the time of testing (Lk 8:13).
Apostasy from one's profession of faith shows one's faith was counterfeit (1Jn 2:19).

God's saving gifts of rebirth, faith, repentance, justification/righteousness are irrevocable.
And it is God who uses many ways, including exhortations and warnings, chastisements and trials, to see to it that they are nourished and do grow.
But God's irrevocable gifts cannot "die" and return to unbelief, as the butterfly cannot return to its former state.

When a husband and wife after 20 years of marriage,the husband no longer loves the wife and chooses to leave,does that mean the love that the husband had at the beginning was NEVER real? Did the husband have a fake love for his wife the whole they were married? Or
did the husband have a REAL LOVE that grew cold and DIED?

Your premise is wrong again. . .

True love is more than feeling, or we would not be commanded to love our enemies.

True love is a commitment to another's well being, it's not just a feeling.

Any love that stops is not true love, it is only feeling.

Any faith that stops is not true faith, it is only counterfeit.

 

[SarahM777]

Your premise is wrong again. . .

True love is more than feeling, or we would not be commanded to love our enemies.

True love is a commitment to another's well being, it's not just a feeling.

Any love that stops is not true love, it is only feeling.

Any faith that stops is not true faith, it is only counterfeit.

Elin,

I am beginning to wonder if the how it happens really changes anything,if the faith dies or if it is fake BOTH end up in the same spot. Are we are arguing about semantics and neither can really change anything in the end result?

 

[SeaBass]

They fell from the doctrine of grace as many new Christians do once they have been converted. They begin to convince themselves that they must be good enough to keep it up, rather than trusting in the grace of God.

But the Galatians did not fall out of grace. They were still under the grace of God and still Christians. They fell INTO grace. They just needed Paul to put their doctrines right.
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From Gal 1:6 they were removed from the gospel of Christ to a false gospel; they quit obeying the truth, Gal 3;1; they were fallen from grace, Gal 5:4. They had gone from a saved position 1) in the gospel, obeying the truth, in grace to a lost position being removed from the gospel, not obeying the truth, not in grace.

Paul clearly says those Galatians had fallen FROM grace not fallen INTO grace.

 

[SeaBass]

Fortunately God found a way. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and was freely accounted as righteous through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. (Rom 3.24)

James 2;21,24,25 Abraham and Rahab were both justified by obedient works.

 

[SeaBass]

here is your problem.

1. FOr all have sinned and fall short of the glory (perfection) of God.
2. If we break even the least of the law. we are guilty as if we broke the whole law.

There are no righteous people on earth. No one will get to heaven because THEY were righteous people. for that demands the perfect adherance to the law (Gods demand) this we are all sinners.

Only those who have been GIVEN the righteousness of CHrist will get in.

Your not righteous sea bass, stop puffing yourself up. the law condemns yuo were you stand, until you realize this, you will never find grace.

Rev 22:11; 1 Jn 3:7; 1 Pet 4:18; 1 Pet 3;12 -- there are those reckoned righteous by God. If no one on earth is righteous then no one will be saved for the unrighteous are all lost,

 

[SeaBass]

Do you understand what James is saying? What he is saying is that we become accepted as righteous by God when we believe (2.23), but that true faith will RESULT in practical righteousness which convinces men that we are justified. For when we believe and are saved we are 'created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them'.(Eph 2.10). As a consequence we are seen to some extent to be righteous, and are justified before men as believers ('I by my works will show you my faith') but of course not as wholly righteous (2.10). We never cease to need the effectiveness of Christ's righteousness which is the only righteousness which makes us acceptable before God..

Why did Rahab receive the messengers and send them out another way? Because she had believed God and it was counted to her for righteousness. She was seen as righteous before God (as you say). God needs no other evidence. But she was seen to be righteous by men when she saved the messengers. So we must distinguish being righteous in the sight of God from being righteous in the eyes of men.,,

James did NOT say Rahab was justified "when she believed" but "Rahab the harlot justified by works"
James did NOT say Rahab was justified by faith only then did works.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes that is true BUT how do you deal with those unknown sins that we all do that we have not been confronted with or convicted of? How does one repent of them if one does NOT KNOW they are doing them?

Hi,

When a sinner hears the gospel, believes the gospel, repents and is water baptized for remission of sins God cuts away the body of sins, forgives all sins and as long as that new Christian continues to walk in the light, the blood of Christ continues to cleanse away ALL sin, not some sin, but ALL sin. I am not familiar with an "unknown sin" one can continue in and not know it.

 

[SeaBass]

Again, What does Gal. 5:4 say???

Amazingly in post #441 someone says it means they fell INTO grace.

 

[Elin]

Your premise is wrong again. . .

True love is more than feeling, or we would not be commanded to love our enemies.

True love is a commitment to another's well being, it's not just a feeling.

Any love that stops is not true love, it is only feeling.

Any faith that stops is not true faith, it is only counterfeit.

Elin,

I am beginning to wonder if the how it happens really changes anything,
if the faith dies or if it is fake BOTH end up in the same spot. Are we are arguing about semantics and neither can really change anything in the end result?

Well actually, that assumes your premise, which I am contesting, is true; i.e., saving faith can die.

However, true faith makes one a son of God.
Counterfeit faith does not.

Once a son of God, that cannot be changed, nor does the faith of a son of God die.
In addition, God disciplines and chastises his own sons if necessary, showing that even then they remain his sons.

Any faith that dies is not true faith, it is counterfeit.

 

[SeaBass]

Non-responsive. . .

Your erroneous doctrine cannot explain them.

HINT: Ge 15:6

You response was non-responsive.

FACT: 1 Cor 6:9 the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. So the unrighteous cannot be saved while continuing to live in their unrighteousness (not doing righteousness).

Your still left with the problem of how to get the unrighteous to being servants of righteousness without doing any righteousness at all.

 

[Elin]

God justifies the unrighteous (Ro 4:5) with his gift of righteousness/justification (Ro 4:17), which causes them to discontinue their unrighteousness.

Those who habitually practice unrighteousness show that they have never been justified (declared "not guilty," by grace through the gifts of faith--Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3 and repentance--2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31), sin forgiven, which is salvation (Lk 1:77).

Explain the meaning of these Scriptures, being true to their words and context.

1 Cor 6:9 says the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. This verse is a statement of fact, not a straw man.

Non-responsive. . .

Your erroneous doctrine cannot explain them.

HINT: Ge 15:6

You response was non-responsive.

The records speaks for itself. . .

 

[oldhermit]

Amazingly in post #441 someone says it means they fell INTO grace.

That does not surprise me. The word is ἐκ not εἰς or ὅτι. Just as εἰς never represents any motion but forward motion, ἐκ expresses only backward motion. These are not falling into grace but out of or away from grace.

 

[Nico07]

I think Luke 15:3-7 sums it up nicely.

 

[Nico07]

I think Luke 15:3-7 sums it up nicely.

Also John 10

 

[mailmandan]

Fortunately God found a way. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Amen! In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works" (James 2:21), but works salvationists misinterpret this to mean "saved by works." James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In regards to Rahab, she genuinely had faith in the Lord God (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She proved her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers prove theirs. First: SAVED THROUGH FAITH, NOT WORKS next: WORKS OF FAITH FOLLOW (Ephesians 2:8-10) as the demonstrative evidence of our faith, but not as the means of our salvation.

I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Saviour and was freely accounted as righteous through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. (Rom 3.24)

Amen! I put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Savior as well and was justified freely (accounted as righteous) by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24) but works salvationists "put their trust in works" and NOT exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation so they are not accounted as righteous.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So the husband can show agape love to his for the first 15 years of the marriage,they start going through a really,really bad time in their marriage for what ever reason,and for what reason they can't seem to get through it,and then Satan throws in his curve ball,he sends a woman that understands him at this time,it's perfectly innocent at first,but slowly over time they find they have MORE in common then he has WITH HIS WIFE and slowly but surely they are started to be attracted to each other and one lonely night they end up in bed. Then because they did his love for his lover becomes GREATER then his love his wife. His love for his wife WAS UNDERMINED by what he did. It never happens that way?

Or is that the husband started seeing someone at work who he thought was better then what HE HAD? Could he have BEEN PULLED AWAY INTO LUST? The husband is NEVER pulled away from the wife for his love for his job? The husband is NEVER pulled away because his wife has needs that he finds are hard for him deal with? It never occurs to you that the husband could have ALLOWED things to get IN BETWEEN him and the love he had for his wife? That NEVER happens? It ONLY happens because the husbands love was NEVER REAL IN the first? Really?

The problem is NOT GOD. The problem is NEVER GOD. The problem is and will be is FICKLE human beings. Human beings WILL ALLOW things to get in BETWEEN THEM and their love for Lord.

Agape love is unconditional. it never stops loving. As scripture says. Love never fails.

what you just wrote is an example of someone who does not have agape love for his wife.

and your right, humans will let something get in the way of their love. But you forgot that Gos will never let anything get in the way of his love, He loves the ones he adopts. and nothing will or can change that love or God is not a God of love