Hebrews 6:1-6

[eternally-gratefull]

If the sheep REFUSES to heed the shepherds voice and stop,the sheep CAN still keep running and running till it falls off the cliff,gets eaten by wolf or turned into lamb chops,if the sheep DOES NOT STOP and turns around.

Read scripture much?

John 1-: 3-16 - [SUP]3 [/SUP]To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All who ever came before Me[SUP][a][/SUP] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. [SUP]9[/SUP]I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.[SUP]12 [/SUP]But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. [SUP]14[/SUP]I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. [SUP]15 [/SUP]As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, What does Gal. 5:4 say???

In the light of other scripture.

Not what you think it says.

We do not make a doctrine out of 1 verse. Well maybe you do??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The point is they WEREN'T PLUCKED OUT of His hands,they WALKED AWAY FROM HIM. That is one huge difference. One that walks is a MATTER OF THE HEART.

So you claim to be strong than jesus that you can wrench yourself from his grip? Wow you must be strong and powerful. Should we bow down to you now that your stronger than God.?

A sheep does not want to leave his sheppard. You got part of the story, Nothing says how that sheppard treated the sheep. Maybe he treated them poorly, so they ran.

Again, Would God do ANYTHING which would cause you to lose faith?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is an interesting passage

Psalm 25:5 As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.

In the turning aside (unto their crooked ways here) the LORD himself shall lead them forth with those.

So it shows that He leading them forth with the workers of iniquity (not righteousness).

Even as Jesus said every branch in him that does not bear fruit He (the LORD) takes away as well

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit (( HE )) taketh away:

Whereas in the Psalms it shows how he does this,

... the LORD shall lead them forth with (these) the workers of iniquity

Just as here of those who do not abide in him he says,

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Because if they are not bearing fruit (by abiding) and he (not any man) taketh them away (in reality) and because they would be bearing thorns (not fruit) by a true abiding.

So it makes sense they (in turning to their crooked ways) would be led forth (even as by the LORD) with the use of these men (even workers of iniquity) and cast forth branches be gathered by such men to be burned, just as it says here.

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing;
whose end is to be burned.

would nigh unto cursing be condemned, or would it mean they are near to being condemned?

huge difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rev 22:11; 1 Jn 3:7; 1 Pet 4:18; 1 Pet 3;12 -- there are those reckoned righteous by God. If no one on earth is righteous then no one will be saved for the unrighteous are all lost,

your right, no one will be saved, because the law condemns everyone.

only the righteousness of God in you can make you righteous. why do you think Jesus came to die. because he wanted to? no reason whatsoever?

why do you mock the cross of Christ?

 

[oldhermit]

In the light of other scripture.

Not what you think it says.

I think it says ,
κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ οἵτινες ἐν νόμῳ δικαιοῦσθε, τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε.
Your are cut off from Christ whoever in (the)law are being justified from grace you have fallen.

Tell me if it says something different.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it says ,
κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ οἵτινες ἐν νόμῳ δικαιοῦσθε, τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε.
Your are cut off from Christ whoever in (the)law are being justified from grace you have fallen.

Tell me if it says something different.

and?

Were the children of Isreal with the God of Israel (pre-incarnat Christ) WHen they were led by moses out of egypt?

Then, were they ever saved? Because they had FAITH IN GOD?

did they not fall from grace? (unable to enter the promised land) even though they NEVER had faith in God.

Falling from grace does not always mean one had salvation.

again, In light of the rest of scripture, it does not mean what you think. Your greek does not help you in this situation.

The people in galation who left (fell) always had faith in the law. why do you think they went back?

Again, as scripture says, a dog returns to his vomit, why? Because he was always a dog.

 

[SarahM777]

So you claim to be strong than jesus that you can wrench yourself from his grip? Wow you must be strong and powerful. Should we bow down to you now that your stronger than God.?

A sheep does not want to leave his sheppard. You got part of the story, Nothing says how that sheppard treated the sheep. Maybe he treated them poorly, so they ran.

Again, Would God do ANYTHING which would cause you to lose faith?

You do NOT understand where I am coming from and that's why you WILL not get what I am saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do NOT understand where I am coming from and that's why you WILL not get what I am saying.

I understand exactly where your coming from.

You want to take credit for saving yourself (not walking away or whatever you claim one can do)

I think the point is, you do not understand what your saying, because you deny you say it.

 

[oldhermit]

and?

Were the children of Isreal with the God of Israel (pre-incarnat Christ) WHen they were led by moses out of egypt?

Then, were they ever saved? Because they had FAITH IN GOD?

did they not fall from grace? (unable to enter the promised land) even though they NEVER had faith in God.

Falling from grace does not always mean one had salvation.

again, In light of the rest of scripture, it does not mean what you think. Your greek does not help you in this situation.

The people in galation who left (fell) always had faith in the law. why do you think they went back?

Again, as scripture says, a dog returns to his vomit, why? Because he was always a dog.

The result of having fallen from grace is that they had been cut off from Christ. This necessitates a change of status. Paul is talking to Jewish Christians, not Jewish non-Christians.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The result of having fallen from grace is that they had been cut off from Christ. This necessitates a change of status. Paul is talking to Jewish Christians, not Jewish non-Christians.

he is talking to a whole church. You assume they were all saved, thats a huge assumption.

They have been cut off from christ, because they thing which COULD have saved the, is now useless to them.

You have never seen anyone play church, only to go back to what they were before? Playing church wll not save you. you may thin your saved, you may think you have faith. but it does not mean you ever have, you will always return to what your true faith is in. ALWAYS.

 

[oldhermit]

he is talking to a whole church. You assume they were all saved, thats a huge assumption.

They have been cut off from christ, because they thing which COULD have saved the, is now useless to them.

You have never seen anyone play church, only to go back to what they were before? Playing church wll not save you. you may thin your saved, you may think you have faith. but it does not mean you ever have, you will always return to what your true faith is in. ALWAYS.

Explain to us how one can be cut off from something to which one has never been joined. You know the scriptures well enough to know that only those who are in Christ are the recipients of grace. These had fallen from grace and as a result had been cut off from Christ. Really EG, you are never going to see this so there is no since in me beating my head against a wall.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did paul claim they ALL were saved?

Gal 3: [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Notice that Paul says clearly, If you are christs (he questions if everyone is even saved)
then he seperates the YOU's, from the WE's. They are not one group. but two separate groups.

You have fallen, We eagerly wait (why? Our faith is in gods, theirs was not)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Explain to us how one can be cut off from something to which one has never been joined. You know the scriptures well enough to know that only those who are in Christ are the recipients of grace. These had fallen from grace and as a result had been cut off from Christ. Really EG, you are never going to see this so there is no since in me beating my head against a wall.

No, You know quite well you are ignoring the facts.

You telling me the children of Israel did not experience Gods grace by being freed from Egypt. crossing the red sea, being fed by manna, and drink from the rock?

These people who never had faith in God, but just believed in him.

You keep ignoring the facts and examples of people who experienced Gods grace, but were never saved my friend. that is not helping you at all.

 

[oldhermit]

Did paul claim they ALL were saved?

Gal 3: [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed,and heirs according to the promise.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Notice that Paul says clearly, If you are christs (he questions if everyone is even saved)
then he seperates the YOU's, from the WE's. They are not one group. but two separate groups.

You have fallen, We eagerly wait (why? Our faith is in gods, theirs was not)

Enough EG. The more you argue this the sillier your arguments get. Paul is not questioning if "anyone was even saved" he is stating a simple fact that if they belong to Christ they are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Why don't you simply listen to the grammatical structure of the text and read a text for what it says and stop trying to explain away what it says. I'm done here EG. There is no point in continuing this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Enough EG. The more you argue this the sillier your arguments get. Paul is not questioning if "anyone was even saved" he is stating a simple fact that if they belong to Christ they are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Why don't you simply listen to the grammatical structure of the text and read a text for what it says and stop trying to explain away what it says. I'm done here EG. There is no point in continuing this.

Why bother, Your never going to listen.

Why would paul ask. "if you are Christs" if he knew they were Christs?

Grammer is only part of the equation. Not all of it. If you will not listen to clear examples of people who experienced the grace of God, but never had faith in God (thus were never saved) Then you will not listen to anything, it is clear your mind is made up.

 

[SarahM777]

I understand exactly where your coming from.

You want to take credit for saving yourself (not walking away or whatever you claim one can do)

I think the point is, you do not understand what your saying, because you deny you say it.

No you don't,but I do understand what you are saying,you believe that you are under compulsion and can do nothing else.
I believe that it is a CHOICE that comes OUT OF LOVE. God has not and never will FORCE someone to LOVE Him. It can ONLY be a WILLING response out of the heart,if it is NOT a WILLING RESPONSE it CAN NOT be out of LOVE.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No you don't,but I do understand what you are saying,you believe that you are under compulsion and can do nothing else.

No, I do not believe this at all. I believe I have true Faith in God. God will never let me down, and no one can give me what God can give me.

You know.. true faith? Not just mere belief.

I believe that it is a CHOICE that comes OUT OF LOVE. God has not and never will FORCE someone to LOVE Him. It can ONLY be a WILLING response out of the heart,if it is NOT a WILLING RESPONSE it CAN NOT be out of LOVE.

I agree with you.

We love only BECAUSE God loves us first. God does not force anyone to love him, he empowers those he loves to love him, because he loved them first.

Forcing, and returning is two different things. Only a person who never experienced the true love of God would need to be forced. for those of us who have experienced his true love, No forcing is needed.

 

[SarahM777]

[/COLOR]No, I do not believe this at all. I believe I have true Faith in God. God will never let me down, and no one can give me what God can give me.

You know.. true faith? Not just mere belief.


I agree with you.

We love only BECAUSE God loves us first. God does not force anyone to love him, he empowers those he loves to love him, because he loved them first.

Forcing, and returning is two different things. Only a person who never experienced the true love of God would need to be forced. for those of us who have experienced his true love, No forcing is needed.

Like it or not boiled down THAT is what you are saying. Think it through.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like it or not boiled down THAT is what you are saying. Think it through.

I have thought it through.

When are you going to think it through?

You have never shown me how you can agape love someone who never cheats on you, Never steels from you. Always gives you what you need, andnever judges you, and that love fall away.

Are you ever going to? Because thats what your claiming one can do.