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Again, I hear what you're saying, but please understand that what I believe is not replacement theology - at all. No one replaces anyone - God creates in Christ one NEW man.
Number 3 above says, "in those promises and that chosenness we are united with but have not replaced Israel"
No, we are not united with Israel, but with those who have put their faith in Christ, whether Israel or Gentiles - the Body of Christ. What you're saying is that Israel doesn't have to believe on their Messiah. After the Cross, all mankind becomes partakers in the promise ONLY through faith in Christ and His Work.
The writer to the Hebrews calls it the 'new and living way'. And even Israel is subject to it.
-JGIG
Number 3 above says, "in those promises and that chosenness we are united with but have not replaced Israel"
No, we are not united with Israel, but with those who have put their faith in Christ, whether Israel or Gentiles - the Body of Christ. What you're saying is that Israel doesn't have to believe on their Messiah. After the Cross, all mankind becomes partakers in the promise ONLY through faith in Christ and His Work.
The writer to the Hebrews calls it the 'new and living way'. And even Israel is subject to it.
-JGIG
E
How?
How can it be less stressful and easier by obvsering the torah, when you have to dmit, you continue to fail to live up to the torahs standard and requirement?
If anything, this ADDS stress, and makes it hard, or else you have to water down the torah to a way you can observe it, and make it something other that what God gave us. A watered down torah is no torah at all.
How can it be less stressful and easier by obvsering the torah, when you have to dmit, you continue to fail to live up to the torahs standard and requirement?
If anything, this ADDS stress, and makes it hard, or else you have to water down the torah to a way you can observe it, and make it something other that what God gave us. A watered down torah is no torah at all.
B
Read what I said in my testirmony carefully. I decided to walk away from the Torah walk. There were things I wanted and desired that were fleshly. I didn't go into detail on it. I basically started hanging out with the wrong group of people, they weren't really even observant in any type of religion. 2 of the people I was hanging out with at that time were athiests. I was also lusting and chasing after girls. So yes I fell, but got back on track and things got better. Since then it life didn't get all stressful, and the change mainly happenned because I started hanging out with and uplifting group of people. I didn't stop because I thought following Torah was hard. Again I stopped because I desired things of the fleshly desires. Lust was a big one of them.
So I know you're not twisting it, but I didn't really think it'd be necessary to go into that detail. I apologize that I didn't go into that explaination. And what you're doing is basically picking 1 small sections of my whole testimony and changing the testimony into something it's not. Now I know that is not your intention, but that is how it came across to me.
Remember when God made us, He gave us free will to do what we please. So as far as that free will, I decided to walk away from Torah. I didn't say it was hard to walk in Torah. It's very simple. If you look at what Torah states, and offers, you're not walking in worldly things, which we are told not to walk in worldly things. Torah is not just a covenant, it's instructions on a holy and set apart life style. I would concider holy and set apart to be not worldly. As followers of Christ we should not desire fleshly things, but desire holy things.
There are multiple times in the Torah that state the Torah is holy, and then a few times in the NT where it is called holy (even by Paul himself).
But that in a way wasn't my point. My point was when walking in Torah, there are so many blessings in it.
Now some people have to have a fall at some point in their time. I had one, and it just so happenned to be at that time in my life.
My personal lesson (that I personally learned) really wasn't the really following Torah or not following Torah, it was the choices of choosing fleshly desire or non fleshly desire. Along with make sure the people you hang out with are supportive in your walk. I think that 2nd part is what influenced the fleshly desires. And I admit that was a major mistake on my part.
So I know you're not twisting it, but I didn't really think it'd be necessary to go into that detail. I apologize that I didn't go into that explaination. And what you're doing is basically picking 1 small sections of my whole testimony and changing the testimony into something it's not. Now I know that is not your intention, but that is how it came across to me.
Remember when God made us, He gave us free will to do what we please. So as far as that free will, I decided to walk away from Torah. I didn't say it was hard to walk in Torah. It's very simple. If you look at what Torah states, and offers, you're not walking in worldly things, which we are told not to walk in worldly things. Torah is not just a covenant, it's instructions on a holy and set apart life style. I would concider holy and set apart to be not worldly. As followers of Christ we should not desire fleshly things, but desire holy things.
There are multiple times in the Torah that state the Torah is holy, and then a few times in the NT where it is called holy (even by Paul himself).
But that in a way wasn't my point. My point was when walking in Torah, there are so many blessings in it.
Now some people have to have a fall at some point in their time. I had one, and it just so happenned to be at that time in my life.
My personal lesson (that I personally learned) really wasn't the really following Torah or not following Torah, it was the choices of choosing fleshly desire or non fleshly desire. Along with make sure the people you hang out with are supportive in your walk. I think that 2nd part is what influenced the fleshly desires. And I admit that was a major mistake on my part.
what is the Jewish courthouse?
I said, "mostly, they're the people we call 'jews'". I wasn't refering to a strict court setting...
I think most Jewish people today are physically decended from the man Judah... I've heard there are no genealogical records, they were burned with the temple...
I think of myself as mostly german... not because I have complete records... but because I have to be something, and it seems reasonable the there's mostly truth to the family stories... the great great great grandparents had to come from somewhere...
so, Jewish people have to have two parents, who each had two parents, and so on... since people rarely convert to Judaism, it seems reasonable that they are mostly from Judah...
I said, "mostly, they're the people we call 'jews'". I wasn't refering to a strict court setting...
I think most Jewish people today are physically decended from the man Judah... I've heard there are no genealogical records, they were burned with the temple...
I think of myself as mostly german... not because I have complete records... but because I have to be something, and it seems reasonable the there's mostly truth to the family stories... the great great great grandparents had to come from somewhere...
so, Jewish people have to have two parents, who each had two parents, and so on... since people rarely convert to Judaism, it seems reasonable that they are mostly from Judah...
B
Correct. It had nothing to do with the observance of Torah, when at that point in time when I was Torah observant I was actually very outgoing as far as showing love to others, I just hit a bump in the road that caused me to slip, and as you said, started chasing after selfish desires. And again that's most likely due to the crowd of people I surrounded myself with.
But again yes that is very good way to put it.
B
You are correct.
For me, my dad has Jewish heritage from when the Jews were kicked out of Russia. Also based on DNA testing my dad had done, they actually traced my family to the tribe of Benjamin, which was a part of the southern kingdom of Judah which is where the term Jew came from.
The term Jew didn't even come around until the kingdom of Israel split. Before that, they were concidered Israelites.
For me, my dad has Jewish heritage from when the Jews were kicked out of Russia. Also based on DNA testing my dad had done, they actually traced my family to the tribe of Benjamin, which was a part of the southern kingdom of Judah which is where the term Jew came from.
The term Jew didn't even come around until the kingdom of Israel split. Before that, they were concidered Israelites.
B
If you want to get technical yes you are correct. They were called Judah by the prophets. Every time you see Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, etc. say Judah they're refferring to the southern kingdom. When you say Judah, what is the first sylabol? Ju-dah, pronounced Jew-duh. Put that in short you get Jew. TA DA!!! When someone says Jew that's what I think of, a decendant of the southern kingdom of Judah. Because if you also look at it in the terms of the prophets, when the kingdom of Israel split, Judah kept the Torah. So the kingdom of Judah is where the pharisees and what not came from.
so I'm thinking about this... if you're of Jewish heritage, then that might be different from gentile christians keeping Torah...
in the days of the apostles, there were areas with lots of Jewish people who believed that Jesus was the Christ... James tells Paul about this when Paul comes to Jerusalem... James doesn't seem interested in trying to get these Jewish believers to stop keeping Torah, rather he gives Paul advice on how to 'fit in'...
very different from Paul's talk with Peter in Galatians, which deals with gentile christians...
in the days of the apostles, there were areas with lots of Jewish people who believed that Jesus was the Christ... James tells Paul about this when Paul comes to Jerusalem... James doesn't seem interested in trying to get these Jewish believers to stop keeping Torah, rather he gives Paul advice on how to 'fit in'...
very different from Paul's talk with Peter in Galatians, which deals with gentile christians...
yes, I said we call them 'Jews'... what word do you use for the folks that regularly attend a synagogue, buy at a kosher grocery, wear yarmulkes, and self-identify as 'Jewish'?
I'm not sure of the biblical standard, but I bet it's based on genealogical records... by that standard, there are no Jews today... so, what do we call the folks above?
I'm not sure of the biblical standard, but I bet it's based on genealogical records... by that standard, there are no Jews today... so, what do we call the folks above?
There are three types of legalism.
1) one is when a Christian gets tied up with observing the minutiae of the Law' and this means more to him than daily following Christ and walking with Him. It is unwise but it is acceptable.
2) one is when someone is so intent on keeping the minutiae of the Law that they begin to judge others who see things differently and accuse them of not being proper Christians. This is unacceptable.
3). one is when observing the Law becomes seen as necessary for salvation, and the accusation is made that those who do not see it that way are not Christians. This does raise the question as to whether those who follow this form of legalism are themselves Christians (Gal 5.2-4)
1) one is when a Christian gets tied up with observing the minutiae of the Law' and this means more to him than daily following Christ and walking with Him. It is unwise but it is acceptable.
2) one is when someone is so intent on keeping the minutiae of the Law that they begin to judge others who see things differently and accuse them of not being proper Christians. This is unacceptable.
3). one is when observing the Law becomes seen as necessary for salvation, and the accusation is made that those who do not see it that way are not Christians. This does raise the question as to whether those who follow this form of legalism are themselves Christians (Gal 5.2-4)
B
Well the instructions on following Torah are the same, but my personal opinion on what they were teaching was not to just jump and splash into Torah. My belief on it is they were teaching
First and foremost, come to salvation through Yeshua. Because you cannot follow Torah without Yeshua in it.
Second go to synagogue (church, however you want to put it) on sabbath (the 7th day sabbath), and they taught Torah their.
Third part 1 (for gentiles coming to salvation) not to just jump into Torah observance or opposite (don't be scared of it), take baby steps. For example start with just sabbath observance, and then when you're comfortable take another step.
Third part 2 (for Jews coming to salvation) Not to judge the gentiles coming into salvation, do not ridicule them, or chastise them for not immediately picking up Torah. Also not to use Torah as a means of salvation. Which I do believe that may have been happenning at the time, because there was some confusion on how to do this walk from both Jewish and Gentile perspective.
There are people who may agree with this theology, there are people who disagree. I honestly believe everyone who comes to Christ should be walking in Torah, and that just because of the basics, that Torah is holy, and we are called to be holy, also again it's what was being taught in the in the synagogues at that time, they were teaching Moses and the prophets.
Now I do also believe some of the leaders were corrected by Paul becuase some of the leaders were teaching salvation is in the Torah, and Paul basically slapping his head at that (which I would too if I heard someone preach that salvation is in Torah). I also believe some of the leaders were pressing really hard on the gentiles to basically get everything together on Torah observance, and were trying to give too much information at once. So I believe Paul was teach alot against this, because the way it was being taught can be lead to confusion and could be misleading.
That's also why there is a lot of confusion when reading Paul, when you see stuff for example it looks like he's against the Torah and then turns around and is for it. If taught improperly the Torah can be legalistic, if taught right it's not legalistic. If it's taught with the knowing that it's a life style of holiness and being obedient to God, it's not legalistic. And I apologize for the redundency, but again if Torah is taught as a means for salvation, that is what legalism is.
I'm not sure if that explains it or not. Again this is my view on it, and I want to be sure and clear that you know I'm not pushing you or anyone else on it.
First and foremost, come to salvation through Yeshua. Because you cannot follow Torah without Yeshua in it.
Second go to synagogue (church, however you want to put it) on sabbath (the 7th day sabbath), and they taught Torah their.
Third part 1 (for gentiles coming to salvation) not to just jump into Torah observance or opposite (don't be scared of it), take baby steps. For example start with just sabbath observance, and then when you're comfortable take another step.
Third part 2 (for Jews coming to salvation) Not to judge the gentiles coming into salvation, do not ridicule them, or chastise them for not immediately picking up Torah. Also not to use Torah as a means of salvation. Which I do believe that may have been happenning at the time, because there was some confusion on how to do this walk from both Jewish and Gentile perspective.
There are people who may agree with this theology, there are people who disagree. I honestly believe everyone who comes to Christ should be walking in Torah, and that just because of the basics, that Torah is holy, and we are called to be holy, also again it's what was being taught in the in the synagogues at that time, they were teaching Moses and the prophets.
Now I do also believe some of the leaders were corrected by Paul becuase some of the leaders were teaching salvation is in the Torah, and Paul basically slapping his head at that (which I would too if I heard someone preach that salvation is in Torah). I also believe some of the leaders were pressing really hard on the gentiles to basically get everything together on Torah observance, and were trying to give too much information at once. So I believe Paul was teach alot against this, because the way it was being taught can be lead to confusion and could be misleading.
That's also why there is a lot of confusion when reading Paul, when you see stuff for example it looks like he's against the Torah and then turns around and is for it. If taught improperly the Torah can be legalistic, if taught right it's not legalistic. If it's taught with the knowing that it's a life style of holiness and being obedient to God, it's not legalistic. And I apologize for the redundency, but again if Torah is taught as a means for salvation, that is what legalism is.
I'm not sure if that explains it or not. Again this is my view on it, and I want to be sure and clear that you know I'm not pushing you or anyone else on it.
not forgetting that yahshua said and taught the apostles and his followers /disciples that a Jew is not one who is a Jew outwardly but inwardly,
there is still overwhelming genealogical records / ((proof?)) hahahahaha more than enough//
for many JEWS TODAY.....
YHWH knows us(not many online; few anywhere) ; we JEWS know who we are. we EKKLESIA know who we are(and we know who is not of HIM). we follow the SHEPHERD, we know HIS VOICE. we guard HIS WORD in our HEARTS, as HE GUARDS US IN HIMSELF/ as HIS FLOCK.
there is still overwhelming genealogical records / ((proof?)) hahahahaha more than enough//
for many JEWS TODAY.....
YHWH knows us(not many online; few anywhere) ; we JEWS know who we are. we EKKLESIA know who we are(and we know who is not of HIM). we follow the SHEPHERD, we know HIS VOICE. we guard HIS WORD in our HEARTS, as HE GUARDS US IN HIMSELF/ as HIS FLOCK.
B
To add to what asked, for example, for me.
I follow Torah in obedience to God, I follow Torah because of the lifestyle it is. From personal experience I have seen many positive things come from Torah observance. On one of the threads I posted my testimony as far as Torah observance in my life versus non-Torah observance in my life. It also goes over how it effected my parents marriage.
In my life I have seen only positive things come from Torah observance to believe it is wrong in anyway at all. I have not ran into 1 negative thing, except the occasional arguement that soem people believe it should not be observed at all. I extremely dislike arguing on the topic, but I also get highly offeneded when someone tells me that I'm wrong in my observance (I'm not saying you've done this, because you have not, and I respect you for not telling me I'm wrong on that). I do apologize if any of my comments towards you have come across as me being judgemental, that was not my intent.
I follow Torah in obedience to God, I follow Torah because of the lifestyle it is. From personal experience I have seen many positive things come from Torah observance. On one of the threads I posted my testimony as far as Torah observance in my life versus non-Torah observance in my life. It also goes over how it effected my parents marriage.
In my life I have seen only positive things come from Torah observance to believe it is wrong in anyway at all. I have not ran into 1 negative thing, except the occasional arguement that soem people believe it should not be observed at all. I extremely dislike arguing on the topic, but I also get highly offeneded when someone tells me that I'm wrong in my observance (I'm not saying you've done this, because you have not, and I respect you for not telling me I'm wrong on that). I do apologize if any of my comments towards you have come across as me being judgemental, that was not my intent.
W
Here is my problem with the opinion that Acts 15 gives Christians commandments on food only to avoid offending Jews.
Acts 15
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Ok, so here we are given commandments to abide by while we are first turning to God. They are commandments which deal with how to keep clean food from becoming unclean. What do you think would offend the Jewish population more?
Eating a clean animal which hasn't been properly prepared or eating something which God has said is an abomination to eat? Do you really think this passage is saying it is ok to eat swine as long as it is drained of all blood? The only way this makes sense is if it was well known that unclean foods were still not meant to be eaten.
People knew long before Moses, which animals were considered clean and acceptable by God for sacrifice and consumption.
People in this thread keep saying that at the moment of Christ's resurrection, everything changed... Can you create that argument without misunderstanding Paul? Or do you only have one witness to support that theory?
Acts 15
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Ok, so here we are given commandments to abide by while we are first turning to God. They are commandments which deal with how to keep clean food from becoming unclean. What do you think would offend the Jewish population more?
Eating a clean animal which hasn't been properly prepared or eating something which God has said is an abomination to eat? Do you really think this passage is saying it is ok to eat swine as long as it is drained of all blood? The only way this makes sense is if it was well known that unclean foods were still not meant to be eaten.
People knew long before Moses, which animals were considered clean and acceptable by God for sacrifice and consumption.
People in this thread keep saying that at the moment of Christ's resurrection, everything changed... Can you create that argument without misunderstanding Paul? Or do you only have one witness to support that theory?