Hebrews 6:1-6

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Mar 12, 2014
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The records speaks for itself. . .
The record is showing how it is not possible for one to ever be a servant of righteousness when he has not done any righteousness at all.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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I have thought it through.

When are you going to think it through?

You have never shown me how you can agape love someone who never cheats on you, Never steels from you. Always gives you what you need, andnever judges you, and that love fall away.

Are you ever going to? Because thats what your claiming one can do.
There two parts to it. There is God's love for us and there is our RESPONSE to His love. One can continue to respond to His love or one can CHOOSE NOT TO.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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I think it says ,
κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ οἵτινες ἐν νόμῳ δικαιοῦσθε, τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε.
Your are cut off from Christ whoever in (the)law are being justified from grace you have fallen.

Tell me if it says something different.
the verb does not mean 'cut off' but 'made of no effect'. It is important to see the whole context :
Gal 5,3-5
Behold, I Paul say to you, that if you are circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man who is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Paul is declaring that by being circumcised they have bound themselves to the need to observe the whole Law. Thus the grace of God and of Christ have become irrelevant to them because they are depending on something else. In their doctrinal position they have fallen away from the doctrine of grace.

He was not of course saying that there was no way back. But whilst they are trusting in Judaistic practises their whole outlook has become to reject the grace of God. Therefore they need to return to the Gospel that Paul preached.

It is doubtful if a temporary aberration would result in their being lost (God's grace had not yet become of no effect to them). What will determine whether they were ever truly saved will be that they come back to the doctrine of grace.

 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
There two parts to it. There is God's love for us and there is our RESPONSE to His love. One can continue to respond to His love or one can CHOOSE NOT TO.
So you can't show me how somoene would ever stop loving someone who has NEVER let them down.

Thanks. That's all I needed to hear.

of course I know why you can't show me, Because you know deep down in your heart I am right.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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the verb does not mean 'cut off' but 'made of no effect'. It is important to see the whole context :
It means both.

Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
 
Mar 12, 2014
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your right, no one will be saved, because the law condemns everyone.

only the righteousness of God in you can make you righteous.
why do you think Jesus came to die. because he wanted to? no reason whatsoever?

why do you mock the cross of Christ?


I posted if no one was RIGHTEOUS then no one would be saved. Since there are people that will be saved then there are those that are righteous.

Righteousness is not a work God does for man but an obedient work man does in doing what God has said to do.

Christ died for every man, Heb 2:9 then why isn't every man saved? For every man will not work work righteousness the death of Christ requires for man's sins to be cleansed away. Christ did not die for every man so that every man can continue to live in unrighteousness and be saved in that unrighteous state, that would be a mockery of the cross of Christ. If man can be saved in his unrighteous state, then no need to shed blood to wash away sins that did not need to be washed away.....he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God, 1 Jn 3:10.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
thats why we need to go to the rest of scripture. and interpret scripture with scripture.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I posted if no one was RIGHTEOUS then no one would be saved. Since there are people that will be saved then there are those that are righteous.
Thats not what the law says, the law says to be righteous you must be perfect. Break even one command and your guilty of the whole law.

Righteousness is not a work God does for man but an obedient work man does in doing what God has said to do.
No, Righteousness is a work empowered By Gods love through man. See there you go puffing yourself up again and rejecting the righteousness of Christ on all who believe in him.

Christ died for every man, Heb 2:9 then why isn't every man saved? For every man will not work work righteousness the death of Christ requires for man's sins to be cleansed away. Christ did not die for every man so that every man can continue to live in unrighteousness and be saved in that unrighteous state, that would be a mockery of the cross of Christ. If man can be saved in his unrighteous state, then no need to shed blood to wash away sins that did not need to be washed away.....he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God, 1 Jn 3:10.
So why do you think your saved? You continue to sin, and deny it. And you puff yourself up and deny it. And you reject the cross and deny it.

There is no hope in your gospel. non whatsoever
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Thats not what the law says, the law says to be righteous you must be perfect. Break even one command and your guilty of the whole law.


No, Righteousness is a work empowered By Gods love through man. See there you go puffing yourself up again and rejecting the righteousness of Christ on all who believe in him.



So why do you think your saved? You continue to sin, and deny it. And you puff yourself up and deny it. And you reject the cross and deny it.

There is no hope in your gospel. non whatsoever
I still cannot believe how blind some are.....the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD void of the law is IMPUTED unto every true believer.....yet he still teaches it is something that WE HAVE TO WORK FOR........bdee bdee bdee bdee........!
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Thats not what the law says, the law says to be righteous you must be perfect. Break even one command and your guilty of the whole law.
The Christian is one who is "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14. And the only way the Christian can be holy and without blame is by doing righteousness, right doing in a continued walking in the light so that Christ's blood continues to cleanse away all sins (1 Jn 1:7) thereby leaving the Christian blameless and spotless. Working God's righteousness does not require perfect, flawless sinlessness but a faithful obedience in doing God's righteousness whereby Christ's blood cleanse away ALL sin.

Eternally-Gratfull said:
No, Righteousness is a work empowered By Gods love through man. See there you go puffing yourself up again and rejecting the righteousness of Christ on all who believe in him.
Then God would be morally culpable for all the unrighteous for failing to "empower" all men to work righteousness. Doing God's righteousness is a choice man must make not an arbitrary choice God makes for men. Even when one does God's righteousness he still is an unprofitable servant in need of grace..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10. What does an unprofitable servant in need of grace have to be "puffed up" about?

Eteranlly Gratfull said:
So why do you think your saved? You continue to sin, and deny it. And you puff yourself up and deny it. And you reject the cross and deny it.

There is no hope in your gospel. non whatsoever
You did not answer the question...if Christ died for every man and that is all there is to salvation then why isn't every man saved?

The cross of Christ was Christ's role in man's salvation and what some refuse to acknowledge in THEIR own role in their salvation. Most men will not fulfill their role in salvation being the reason why every man will not be saved even though Christ died for every man. Those men that refuse to fulfill their role in salvation are the one's rejecting the cross/salvation being derelict in doing their duty in doing what was commanded them per Lk 17:10. There is no hope in doing nothing.
 
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I still cannot believe how blind some are.....the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD void of the law is IMPUTED unto every true believer.....yet he still teaches it is something that WE HAVE TO WORK FOR........bdee bdee bdee bdee........!

There is no verse that says the righteousness of Christ is imputed - transferred to some random sinner while that sinner sits and does nothing, so there is a valid reason to being blind to something the bible does not teach.

What the bible DOES teach is that through obediently doing God's righteousness in submitting to water baptism one is then placed in Christ, Gal 3:27 being thereby clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The Christian is one who is "holy and without blame" Eph 1:4; 2 Pet 3:14. And the only way the Christian can be holy and without blame is by doing righteousness, right doing in a continued walking in the light so that Christ's blood continues to cleanse away all sins (1 Jn 1:7) thereby leaving the Christian blameless and spotless. Working God's righteousness does not require perfect, flawless sinlessness but a faithful obedience in doing God's righteousness whereby Christ's blood cleanse away ALL sin.
The christian can only be holy and without blame if they have fulfilled the law. How well have you done that?


Then God would be morally culpable for all the unrighteous for failing to "empower" all men to work righteousness. Doing God's righteousness is a choice man must make not an arbitrary choice God makes for men. Even when one does God's righteousness he still is an unprofitable servant in need of grace..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10. What does an unprofitable servant in need of grace have to be "puffed up" about?


Make up you rmind, you claimed it was not God who did it but you. Which is it? your backpeddling


You did not answer the question...if Christ died for every man and that is all there is to salvation then why isn't every man saved?
Because we are saved by trusting God completely. God will not just force you to take his gift.

When are you going to do this?


The cross of Christ was Christ's role in man's salvation and what some refuse to acknowledge in THEIR own role in their salvation. Most men will not fulfill their role in salvation being the reason why every man will not be saved even though Christ died for every man. Those men that refuse to fulfill their role in salvation are the one's rejecting the cross/salvation being derelict in doing their duty in doing what was commanded them per Lk 17:10. There is no hope in doing nothing.
Jesus said it was finished (literally paid in full)

He did not say, I did my part. now you do yours.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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There is no verse that says the righteousness of Christ is imputed - transferred to some random sinner while that sinner sits and does nothing, so there is a valid reason to being blind to something the bible does not teach.

What the bible DOES teach is that through obediently doing God's righteousness in submitting to water baptism one is then placed in Christ, Gal 3:27 being thereby clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness.
Look SEA...your COC doctrine hath no power over a believer...the bible is clear...the righteousness of God is imputed by FAITH.....one day soon you will realize this...albeit too late to do you any good! Romans 3:22, 4:3
 
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MsLimpet

Guest
6 If they shall fall away,(kai parapesontas) and having fallen away. On this expression, Dr. Macknight remarks as follows: "The verbs photisthentas, geusamenous, and genethentas, being all aorists, are rightly rendered by our translators in the past time; who were enlightened, have tasted, and were made partakers. Wherefore, parapesontas, being an aorist, ought likewise to have been translated in past time, have fallen away. Nevertheless, our translators following Beza, who without any authority from ancient manuscripts, inserted in his version the word si (if), have rendered this clause, 'if they shall fall away'; that this text might not appear to contradict the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. But as no translator should take upon him to add to or to alter the Scriptures for the sake of any favorite doctrine, I have translated parapesontas in the past time, have fallen away, according to the true import of the word as standing in connection with the other aorists in the preceding verses." It is therefore possible that a man may have been once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and that he may have experienced the blessed sanctifying influences of the good word of God, sustained and supported by the powerful demonstrations of the reign of Heaven, and nevertheless fall away beyond the reach of recovery. "Let him [then] that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall."
to renew them again to repentance:—To do this in the case of those who have apostatized from Christ is simply impossible. When the cord of life and love that binds the true believer to Christ, has been once completely severed, the parties so separated can never again be reunited. The case of the apostate is as hopeless as is that of Satan himself. Nothing remains for him but "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries." This is so clearly taught both here and in 10:26-29, that of the fact itself there can be no question. But why is it so? Is it owing simply to the fact that the heart of the apostate becomes so hardened by sin that no moral power can renew it? Or does God then also withdraw his converting and renewing power from every such abandoned sinner? That both are true seems very evident from such passages as the following: Gen. 6:3; Num. 15:30, 31; Prov. 1:24-32; Isa. 55:6; Hos. 4:17; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; 2 Thess. 2:11, 12.
seeing they crucify, etc.—We have given in this clause the characteristic spirit of that class of persons to whom the Apostle refers in our text. They would crucify, if they could, the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. The mere backslider, though fallen, has still faith in Christ. It may be very weak, and almost ready to perish. But with proper care it may be revived and strengthened, and the poor repenting sinner will then mourn over his sins and transgressions, as one that mourns for an only son, or as "one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." But not so with the hardened apostate. He has no longer any trust and confidence in Christ. Hatred has taken the place of love in his heart, and esteeming the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, he tramples it under his feet in contempt, and if it were possible he would even crucify again the Son of God, and expose him to public reproach.
On this whole subject, Dean Alford makes the following very just and critical remarks: "In later times the great combat over our passage has been between the Calvinistic and Armenian expositors. To favor their peculiar views of indefectibility, the former have endeavored to weaken the force of the participial clauses as implying any real participation in the spiritual life. So Calvin, Beza, Owen, Tait, etc. Owen says, The persons here intended are not true and sincere believers:—for (1) in their full and large description there is no mention of faith or believing, etc—But all this is clearly wrong, and contrary to the plainest sense of the terms here used. The writer even heaps clause upon clause to show that no such shallow tasting, no 'primonbus tan turn labris gustasse [no mere tasting with the top of the lips] is intended. And the whole contextual argument is against the view, for it is the very fact of these persons having veritably entered into the spiritual life, which makes it impossible to renew them afresh if they shall fall away. If they have never entered it, if they are unregenerate, what possible logic is it, or even common sense at all, to say that their shallow taste and partial apprehension, makes it impossible to renew them? And what again to say that it is impossible palin anakainizein [to renew again] persons in whose case no anakainismos [renewal] has ever taken place? If they never have believed, never have been regenerated, how can it be more difficult to renew them to repentance, than the heathen or any unregenerate person? Our landmark of exegesis must be to hold fast the plain simple sense of the passage, and recognize the fact that the persons are truly the partakers of the spiritual life—regenerate by the Holy Spirit."
These critical reasonings and observations are not to be gain-sayed; they are wholly unanswerable. But how painful it is after all this to hear from the same learned author such unauthorized remarks as the following: "Elect, of course, they are not, or they could not fall away, by the very force of the term. But this is one among many passages, wherein the Scripture, as ever from the teaching of the church, we learn that elect and regenerate are not convertible terms.

All elect are regenerate, but all regenerate are not elect. The regenerate may fall away, the elect never can." Here the learned author certainly attempts to make a groundless distinction. Where in the Scriptures is it taught that some of the regenerate are not elect?! Dean Alford was an able critic, but in his theological speculations he frequently errs.

Equally strange and absurd is the hypothesis of the good and venerable Albert Barnes. He says, "The passage proves that if true believers should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew and save them. If then it should be asked whether I believe that any true Christian ever did or ever will fall from grace, and wholly lose his religion, I would answer unhesitatingly no." Why, then, all this earnest warning about a matter which never did occur, and which from the very nature of the case never can occur?! Why spend our time in solemnly warning the people to beware lest the heavens fall, if by the decrees and ordinances of Jehovah it is made absolutely impossible that they ever can fall?!
Gospel Advocate Commentaries - New Testament Commentary – A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews.
 
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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
Righteousness is not a work God does for man but an obedient work man does in doing what God has said to do.
Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that we must be perfect, that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.

What was the "righteousness of the Pharisees"? It is the exact same thing you try to pass off as the way to heaven -- outward conformity to the Law. What did Jesus say about that?

Matthew 22, NASB
35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Wonderful! All we have to do is love -- perfectly! No one does. We neither love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and spirit, nor our neighbors as ourselves. No one does. No one can. It's impossible, and if keeping the Law is necessary for us to enter heaven, then we are hellbound, each and everyone of us -- including you.

But Paul explained that it isn't the Law that saves, it isn't the Law that justifies. We have no righteousness of our own. We must be justified in Christ's own righteousness, which He graciously imputes to us.

Romans 3
21
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Note that phrase at the very beginning of v. 21, Sea. " ... apart from the Law ..." That means, not accounting for the Law, Jesus manifested righteousness. "Being witnessed by the Law ... " = Jesus lived the Law perfectly where no one else is able to do so, as the prophets said He would. Verse 22 clearly states that it that righteousness that comes to us through faith in Jesus Christ.

Whether you will admit it or not -- and we all know you won't -- these two simple verses utterly destroy you legalism. You need to realize that and embrace the grace of God through Christ.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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It means both.

Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).
Precisely so you must fit it to the context.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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The christian can only be holy and without blame if they have fulfilled the law. How well have you done that?
No verse says the Christian must flawlessly keep Christ's law to be holy and without blame. If that were the case, then Christ shed His blood for nothing. The Christian must have an obedient faith in doing what Christ said to be holy and without blame/all sins continually cleanse away by the blood of Christ, 1 Jn 1:7.

continued obedient faith+++++continued cleansing blood of Christ>>>>holy and without blame.

eternally gratefull said:
[/FONT][/COLOR]
Make up you rmind, you claimed it was not God who did it but you. Which is it? your backpeddling



I have said all along each man must choose to have an obedient faith/do righteousness and God does not choose for men which men will obey or not obey.


Eternally-Gratefull said:
Because we are saved by trusting God completely. God will not just force you to take his gift.

When are you going to do this?
If my obedience/doing righteousness is something you say I can be puffed up about, then is your "trusting God" something you can be puffed up about?

eternally gratefull said:
Jesus said it was finished (literally paid in full)

He did not say, I did my part. now you do yours.
Jesus finished HIS part in man's salvation, Jesus did not say man has no part in his own salvation but clearly, plainly unambiguously said to man "WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life" Jn 6:27
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
No verse says the Christian must flawlessly keep Christ's law to be holy and without blame. If that were the case, then Christ shed His blood for nothing. The Christian must have an obedient faith in doing what Christ said to be holy and without blame/all sins continually cleanse away by the blood of Christ, 1 Jn 1:7.

continued obedient faith+++++continued cleansing blood of Christ>>>>holy and without blame.

Ever read galations or hebrews? or james?

It says if your going to be justified by works, your indebted to keep the whole law. Thats exactly what it says.




I have said all along each man must choose to have an obedient faith/do righteousness and God does not choose for men which men will obey or not obey.
you do not think the pharisees obeyed God out of obedience? you do not know them very well they had a true heart for God they just like you did not see how sinful they were. so they could not recieve Christ as their messiah.


If my obedience/doing righteousness is something you say I can be puffed up about, then is your "trusting God" something you can be puffed up about?
Oh so I can be puffed up about Gods work?? lol. talk about a strawman.



Jesus finished HIS part in man's salvation, Jesus did not say man has no part in his own salvation but clearly, plainly unambiguously said to man "WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life" Jn 6:27
Jesus said IT is finished.

He did not say I am finished.

you need some reading glasses?
 
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Viligant_Warrior

Guest
continued obedient faith+++++continued cleansing blood of Christ>>>>holy and without blame.
THis isn't anywhere close to biblical belief. This is legalism at best, heresy at worst. You desperately need to rethink what you "believe" because it is sending you far off the path of Christ.
 
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THis isn't anywhere close to biblical belief. This is legalism at best, heresy at worst. You desperately need to rethink what you "believe" because it is sending off the path of Christ.
I agree.....I heard the same thing from my neighbor for years....he was COC as well.....he never could understand the fact that the completed work of Christ and the righteousness of Christ being applied by faith unto a believer equaled eternal life and a righteous standing before God even while being bound in a dead body of sin.....