The American Rapture Cult

[pem]

History of the the the premil dispensationalists The Rapture Cult

 

[Willie-T]

We probably do agree on this subject. But there are much better books about it that approach the subject with more rationality and reason.

 

[pem]

We probably do agree on this subject. But there are much better books about it that approach the subject with more rationality and reason.

When made aware of my bondage to the Rapture cult 20 odd years ago i read this : Prophecy and the Church book by Oswald T. Allis online Download for Free PDF, ePub | Richard

The most recent books i read were O.Palmer Robertson ; The Israel of God ;yesterday today and tomorrow , and Amillenial Alternative by Sam Storms - a former Hogwarts ( Dallas Theo. Sem.) graduate

 

[maxwel]

I guess it would be entirely too much to ask that we view eschatological differences as a polite in-house debate among believers based primarily on differences in hermeneutics?

I guess not.

Never mind.

Please, go back to the whole "cult" thing.
A day without insults on CC is like a day without sunshine.
: )

 

[pem]

I guess it would be entirely too much to ask that we view eschatological differences as a polite in-house debate among believers based primarily on differences in hermeneutics?

I guess not.

Never mind.

Please, go back to the whole "cult" thing.
A day without insults on CC is like a day without sunshine.
: )

Dispensational vs Reformed Hermeneutic

 

[Ugly]

Dispensational vs Reformed Hermeneutic

Uhh... yeah, too late.

 

[PlainWord]

I can't remotely even understand how there can be any disagreement here. Christ clearly spoke (as he always does) regarding when He returns. He didn't stutter and He didn't forget, neither did He leave it out, He comes "immediately after the Tribulation of those days."

The Tribulation isn't the wrath of God, it's Satan's wrath. God's wrath comes after the Tribulation and it comes in conjunction with the Return of the Lord.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The Tribulation isn't the wrath of God, it's Satan's wrath.

Who opens the Seven Seals, Satan, or Christ?

Who brings the Seven Trumpet Judgments, Satan, or Christ?

Who brings the Seven Bowl Judgments, Satan, or Christ?

 

[PlainWord]

[/QUOTE]

Who opens the Seven Seals, Satan, or Christ?

Who brings the Seven Trumpet Judgments, Satan, or Christ?

Who brings the Seven Bowl Judgments, Satan, or Christ?

What gives you the idea that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all part of the Tribulation?

Clearly it is Christ who removes the seals revealing what is written inside and on the back of the scroll. We can't read the scroll without the seals coming off first.

And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

In case you don't know, only the 4th and 5th seals contains the Great Tribulation period. The 6th Seal discusses the post trib, pre Return of Christ era.

The trumpets are mostly of Satan regardless of who is blowing them. The blowing of the trumpet sounds the warning. It isn't the trumpet blowing that causes the action, rather the trumpet is merely announcing the event(s) which follow. The first 5 trumpets are of Satan. The 5th trumpet is pretty clearly of Satan.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

The Bowls are the wrath of God and they happen after the Tribulation is over. The bowls are poured out in response to Satan's Great Tribulation against specifically the "Beast" and those who serve the "Beast." Once you understand that it is the Beast of the Sea Alliance that is responsible for the Great Tribulation then you can see that God's wrath is in response to it. This shouldn't be hard to understand since we are specifically told this in Rev 18:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

God is repaying Babylon in double strength the harm Babylon has been doing. The "Beast of the Sea" is made up of the Lion, Leopard, Bear Nations of Daniel 7 which we know as Iran, Iraq, Syria and perhaps all of Turkey. These Islamic Jihadists are just getting started. Fortunately, they do a good job of killing and fighting amongst themselves but they will kill millions of Christians along the way before God shortens those days and puts a stop to it.

 

[GaryA]

I can't remotely even understand how there can be any disagreement here. Christ clearly spoke (as he always does) regarding when He returns. He didn't stutter and He didn't forget, neither did He leave it out, He comes "immediately after the Tribulation of those days."

The Tribulation isn't the wrath of God, it's Satan's wrath. God's wrath comes after the Tribulation and it comes in conjunction with the Return of the Lord.

"Are you really, really, really, really, really, absolutely sure about this?"

Or - perhaps - does it actually say:

Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What if --- that which is described in the part that is red --- occurs over a period of 3.5 years...???

The actual point I want to make here is that - people often make assumptions about what the Bible is saying...

Does the Bible actually say that Jesus will appear "immediately after the tribulation of those days"...?

No. It does not.

People most often seem to think that the events of this short description take place over a [ very ] short period of time [ just before ? ] Jesus returns...?

"Not necessarily so."






"Food for thought..."

 

[PlainWord]

"Are you really, really, really, really, really, absolutely sure about this?"

Or - perhaps - does it actually say:

Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What if --- that which is described in the part that is red --- occurs over a period of 3.5 years...???

The actual point I want to make here is that - people often make assumptions about what the Bible is saying...

Does the Bible actually say that Jesus will appear "immediately after the tribulation of those days"...?

No. It does not.

People most often seem to think that the events of this short description take place over a [ very ] short period of time [ just before ? ] Jesus returns...?

"Not necessarily so."






"Food for thought..."

I'd agree with that as a distinct possibility. I was trying to make the point that He comes after the Tribulation. The signs of His coming are immediately after the Trib. Those "signs" I have a theory about.

 

[GaryA]

I'd agree with that as a distinct possibility. I was trying to make the point that He comes after the Tribulation. The signs of His coming are immediately after the Trib. Those "signs" I have a theory about.

I believe that the "trumpet events" are "brought about" by the prophecy and testimony of the two witnesses.

 

[PlainWord]

I believe that the "trumpet events" are "brought about" by the prophecy and testimony of the two witnesses.

I know you do. Just who are those two witnesses? Who are they witnessing to? When and where are they witnessing? Understanding Hebrew prophesy (which we all struggle to do) involves recognizing and correctly interpreting imagery and parallelism. Often times the best way to figure a complex story out is to compare similar passages. Here's my take:

"Sackcloth" is often referred to mourning or lamenting for those to whom you are witnessing. Jews also wore sackcloth as a symbol of repentance for when they did wrong and lost favor with the Lord. Wearing sackcloth as a sign of repentance was a way to get back in good graces with God (Dan 9:3, Ezek 7:18, 27:31, Isa 15:3) Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes.

"Witnesses" are often used to confirm the identity of the one and only true God. (Isa 43:12, 44:8, Acts 1:8, 1 Thes 2:10)

"Fire from Mouth" represents divine anger and convicting words from the Lord (2 Sam 22:9, Psa 18:8) and Jer 5:14: ...“Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them."

"Power over" represents control of or dominance over (Dan 11:5, 43, Mark 6:7) and especially Luke 10:19: Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

"Olive Trees" are symbols of Israel. (Zech 4:3, 11, Hos 14:6, Rom 11:17, 24)

"Lampstands" are also symbols for Israel and are often used together with Olive Tree as they are here. Lampstand can also be a symbol for the church, see Rev 1:20

"Spiritually Sodom and Egypt" this is not a literal place, rather they are spiritual symbols. Sodom represents moral depravity and Egypt represents big time pagan worship and captivity.

"Two Witnesses": the minimum number required to convict someone for a capital punishment under the Law (Deut 17:6, 19:15, Mat 18:16) and 2 Cor 13:1...“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”

If we look at the beginning of Rev 11 we see the period being discussed is the period where the Gentiles have taken over the Courtyard of the Temple Mount. The 42 months exactly coincide with the 1,260 days. Prophetic days are years. This simply means that there would be 1,260 years where a foreign pagan faith dominates the Temple Mount. The Dome of the Rock was built in 688 AD. 1,260 years later in 1948 the Jewish Nation was re-established ending Muslim control.

During those 1,260 years the Jewish "two witnesses" were spread among the Gentile nations and their faith was all but removed from its place. They were being punished but protected. During this period many tried to harm them such as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and of course Nazi Germany, but all who tried to wipe them out failed. When the 1,260 years were up, they were restored to their land.

When Israel finishes her testimony we see that the BEAST from the Bottomless Pit makes war against her and the nations of the world will turn against her as we are seeing now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman...

As for the Trumpets, they are blown for a call to action, for assembly, for war and for warnings. I believe Trumpet 1-4 are describing the future Middle East war. Each trumpet discusses the affect of this war first on the Land, then on the Sea, then on the Fresh Water/Drinking Water then on the Heavenly Lights. Much symbolism is in use but with literal affects.

Trees and Grass: They are a blessing from the Lord. But they are also a casualty of war.

Joel 1:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]O Lord, to You I cry out;
For fire has devoured the open pastures,
And a flame has burned all the trees of the field.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The beasts of the field also cry out to You,
For the water brooks are dried up,
And fire has devoured the open pastures.

We see that Israel's Land, it's green places are scorched by war.

Trumpet 2 deals with the Muslim people of the Sea Region (See Rev 13). The spiritual term for "Mountain" is religion or faith, good or bad, right or pagan. In this case it is pagan and it is Islam. This "Mountain thrown into the Sea of People" means that over religious grounds they kill 1/3 of their populaion until everyone in the Lion, Leopard, Bear Nations are of one accord under Radical Islam.

Trumpet 3 likely involves the use of chemical weapons or biological warfare polluting the drinking water.

Trumpet 4 has to be some type of smoke generated by war, most likely burning oil fields as we saw during the first Gulf War because there is nothing above earth that can block both the sun and moon's light by 1/3.

That's my take anyway for what its worth.

 

[Lynx]

I'd agree with that as a distinct possibility. I was trying to make the point that He comes after the Tribulation. The signs of His coming are immediately after the Trib. Those "signs" I have a theory about.

YAY! That's all I needed to know.

If anyone needs me I'm gonna be out getting drunk. When the signs start coming I'll clean up.

Oh wait... He'll come like a thief in the night. I'd better stay ready. Ah well.

 

[DawgSoldier]

I was a member and true believer in this cult ,having read Late Graeat Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey in my teenage years. I was in a martial Arts school in Waco Texas with Robert Sloan , the President of Baylor University, and I asked him about it. He explained to me in language I could understand how the doctrine was only a 100 years old etc. Opened my eyes. Thank you Jesus,and thank you Robert Sloan.I believe it is a Death Cult.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I was a member and true believer in this cult ,having read Late Graeat Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey in my teenage years. I was in a martial Arts school in Waco Texas with Robert Sloan , the President of Baylor University, and I asked him about it. He explained to me in language I could understand how the doctrine was only a 100 years old etc. Opened my eyes. Thank you Jesus,and thank you Robert Sloan.I believe it is a Death Cult.

Anybody who tells you that the rapture teaching is only a 100 years old and started by Darby has not done their background in studying what the early church believes. Here is some writings on what early church leads thought;

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD) was a bishop of the church in Lyons, France. He was an eyewitness to the Apostle John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) and a disciple of Polycarp, the first of the Apostle John’s disciples. Irenaeus is most-known for his five-volume treatise, Against Heresies in which he exposed the false religions and cults of his day along with advice for how to share the Gospel with those were a part of them.

In his writings on Bible prophecy, he acknowledged the phrase “a time, times and dividing of times” in Daniel 7 to signify the 3 ½ year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal Millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and the resurrection of the just.
On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
​

Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. Note his use of the term “caught up” which is Rapture terminology as that is the meaning of harpazo, the term for “caught up” in the King James Bible describing the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4. He then quotes Matthew 24:21 where The Lord Jesus Christ says: “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” And it is during this time that those who convert to Christianity during the final years will receive the incorruptible crown mentioned by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:25. In Irenaeus’ belief, the Rapture took place prior to the end times Great Tribulation.

Cyprian
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD) – Cyprian was Bishop of the church in Carthage. During his short stint as leader of the church, he guided the flock through intense persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire. In 258 AD after spending seven months of confinement to his home by order of Roman authorities, he was beheaded for his faith. Several of his works still exist today.
In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:

“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
​

Again we see use of language commonly found in reference to the Rapture as Cyprian describes the judgments of the end times as “imminent.” And he makes his belief on the timing of the Rapture when he wrote that Christians will have an “early departure” and be “delivered” from the devastating global judgments that come during the Day of The Lord.
In line with the Apostle Paul who wrote that “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation..” Cyprian expressed joy and encourages the believing reader to rejoice that the Church will be “taken away” before the disastrous Great Tribulation. Just as The Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 used the same language of one “taken away” and the other “left.”Additionally Cyprian references the mansions which The Lord Jesus Christ promises to come back and take His believers to in John 14.

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” – John 14:1-3.
​

As Beginning and End detailed in our article “The Red Moon Rapture – The Biblical Timing of The Rapture”, in both the Matthew 24 passages (“one taken, the other left”) and in John 14 (“..receive you unto myself..”) the Greek work paralambanō is used for taken and receive. The meaning of that word is “join to one’s self” indicating that Jesus is coming to fully unify with His church – which takes place at the Rapture. Clearly Cyprian believed and taught that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation.
Ephraim The Syrian
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD) was made a deacon in the church in Syria in 338 and later became the bishop of Nisibis. Although he was made a “saint” in the Roman Catholic Church, he was not involved in Catholicism and did not even live in the Roman Empire until the final years of his life. The book Pseudo Ephraim was one of his still existing works. It was called “Pseudo” because of later dispute over authorship. However the book’s one reference to the rapture is very compelling:
In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:

“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminentor overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
​

With a sense of urgency and strong warning, Ephraim writes that the end times are upon this world and could start at any moment. This text very clearly states the saints and elect of God, all born again believers in The Lord Jesus Christ, will be “taken to the Lord” before the Great Tribulation. Ephraim also identifies the Old Testament “Day of The Lord” and the end times Great tribulation as the same event (in line with the teachings of theBeginning and End Rapture Series). Ephraim quotes Amos 5:18 which says: “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”
The point he makes is that a Christian should know the Day of The Lord is coming. In the first part of the passage Ephraim notes that:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated)” And not only that but that true Christians will be taken away before it starts.
Here he is describing the first 3 of the first 4 seals of Revelation 6 – wars, famines and plagues. These are the same end times signs Jesus Christ describes in Matthew 24:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. – Matthew 24:3-8.
​

Jesus describes these events as “the beginning of sorrows.” He also says that when these things come to pass “the end is not yet.” Ephraim’s writing agrees with this interpretation as he says those same events have been “fulfilled (consummated)” in his day, but it was still not the actual Great Tribulation. This also falls in line with Beginning and End’s Rapture series as explained in our article Who Are The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse? (The first four seals of Revelation 6 were opened at the time Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven. And the rapture itself does not occur until the opening of the 6th Seal.)
Ephraim in very strong language warns the reader not to be consumed with the cares of the world because the world in its current form, is coming to an end. As the Second Advent or Coming of The Lord Jesus Christ grows near, believers are to look to Heaven and set their hearts on pleasing God. It is clear that Ephraim distinguishes the Second Coming of Christ from the rapture, placing the Rapture before the Great Tribulation to come.

 

[PlainWord]

The timing of the Rapture is the same as the timing of the Resurrection. Both happen on the last day of this age. Both happen after the Tribulation. There will be a lot of Christians killed during the Tribulation and they need to be included in the resurrection. There are only 2 resurrections, 1) Christ who is the firstfruits (only Christ), then afterwards 2) those who are Christ's at His coming.

 

[PlainWord]

There is the "END OF THE AGE" then there is a new age. "Behold, all things will be made new." The end of the age CANNOT be before the Tribulation since the only thing that changes during the Tribulation is Satan's extreme influence on the world which leads to a lot of killing and death. The world itself is unchanged until AFTER the Tribulation.

Some people suggest that there are as many as 5 resurrections. One with Christ, one before the Tribulation, one after the Tribulation, one after the millennium for the just, one after for the wicked. This view is flatly wrong. There are two resurrections only as Paul teaches; first Christ, then everyone else. Daniel teaches this too and Daniel locates it after the Tribulation.

The below passages are all the same event:

Dan 12: ...And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Thes 4: ...And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

John 6: [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some try to separate these events to allow for an earlier return of Christ before the Tribulation but such a view is not supported. There aren't going to be planes flying without pilots and animals left abandoned to die at home without food and water. This type of scene is for the movies, not for reality. When Christ returns, a new age begins and the old age (world as we know it) ends PERIOD, end of story.

 

[PlainWord]

John 5: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Again, only one resurrection (other than Christ's) event. Those who are saved, those who are lost. Notice Christ says "the hour is coming, and not "hours that are coming?" He does not speak of two different events, a pre-trib and a post-trib.

 

[GaryA]

I'd agree with that as a distinct possibility. I was trying to make the point that He comes after the Tribulation. The signs of His coming are immediately after the Trib. Those "signs" I have a theory about.

What is your 'theory' about those "signs"...?