Major misconception: What is legalism and what's not legalism.

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Biblelogic01

Guest
And you just said to love God's ways. Well I just gave a list of God's ways.
 
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Biblelogic01

Guest
Are you saying Jesus didn't know that when he called it the Law of Moses?


That the law is a burden are the words of the apostles.

It is not my job to defend the apostles.
My job is to believe them.

So you're saying to do those things on that list are a burden?
That doesn't make sense because they're all examples of love.
Is being generous to others a burden?
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Are you saying Jesus didn't know that when he called it the Law of Moses?


That the law is a burden are the words of the apostles.

It is not my job to defend the apostles.
My job is to believe them.
So you're saying to do those things on that list are a burden?
That doesn't make sense because they're all examples of love.
Is being generous to others a burden?
Those are the words of the apostles.

You will have to take it up with them.
 
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Biblelogic01

Guest
I mean yes, if I'm a selfish person that desires fleshly things in the world, I can see how following Torah is a burden. Because following Torah is the oposite of selfishness. But I've been down that path of wanting worldly things, and that just runs life right into the ground. So I'm going to stick with the non-selfish path and observe what God said to observe.

And a lot of people need to re-read Matthew 22:37-40
They also need to read the question that was asked
And read the answer. Let us look at the scripture.


[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”


So let's start. The question. He was asked which was the great commandment in the law? (I would assume, that he is also implying that there is more than 1 or 2 commandments)
The answer
“‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the first and great commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Both of these are quoted from Torah, Yeshua is not making something new up, He is quoting commandments from the Torah.

Continuation of the answer

"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Yeshua is stating that these 2 commandments, sum up the rest of the Torah. If you live in loving God, and live in loving your neighbor, you'll be living in Torah.

It's like 1+1=2

It's that simple to read it like that. I don't know why people think there is some huge meaning behind what is stated here. It simply just means that. It's not hard to read. It doesn't take a 20 year scholar to point that out.

There was nothing new added in those verses. It's all quotation of the Torah.

Also with Yeshua stating that, if you're stating He was changing it, well then Yeshua would have been sinning if that's the case.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
Those are the words of the apostles.

You will have to take it up with them.
I mean yes, if I'm a selfish person that desires fleshly things in the world, I can see how
following Torah is a burden.
Your issue is with the apostles, not with me.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
You are failing to distinguish between Jesus old covenant instruction, under which he lived and conducted his ministry, and its meaning in the new covenant.

Yes, under the old covenant every commandment, even the least, had to be kept perfectly.

Under the new covenant, we learn that is impossible to do and, therefore, all are condemned because of its impossibility.
We learn that it is only through faith in Jesus Christ that we are made righteous, that it cannot ever be by law keeping.

Jesus taught us that all the law is fulfilled in two commandments only (Mt 22:37-40), not in all the myriad regulations.

God promised that in the new covenant he would write his law in our minds and on our hearts, by giving us to love.
One doesn't need a myriad of instructions on how to love when the Holy Spirit writes love on one's heart.
There isn't a difference between when Jesus was alive and after He died as far as God's law goes. Don't you think He would have mentioned something so incredibly huge as, "Hey, I am going to spend my entire life and ministry teaching people how to truly observe the law by the Spirit, but as soon as I die none of what I said will be valid and apply to you any more."?

Yes, the law is fulfilled by those two commands. Our love for the Father and the Son is shown when we obey their commandments.

Now when it comes to the "yoke which was too difficult to bear", this is my understanding:

Acts 15
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

The apostles and other knowledgeable followers of Christ in Jerusalem were trying to come to an agreement on whether or not gentile believers needed to be physically circumcised to become a member of the faith as the law prescribed, to enter into a relationship with Christ, to become a spiritual descendant of Abraham. A physical circumcision would have been a one time ritual, performed on those who first come to Christ and know little to nothing of who God is and His commandments.

Ok, so try to imagine for a moment what this whole scenario would look like. People would be preaching Christ to gentiles and someone is interested in coming to Christ... So what the discussion was about what do they tell the brand new gentile believers turning to God and must they circumcise them, what commandments do they share with the new believers?...

Peter is like, "Hey guys, we can't just throw the torah/God's laws at new gentile believers and expect them to observe it perfectly. That would be ridiculous, we have been hearing it, studying it and working on living it our whole lives. We both, Jew and gentile alike are going to be saved in the same way and that is through faith not perfect obedience."

The jews consider what Peter said for a moment.

Then James says "We are not going to trouble the gentiles in such a way as circumcising them and demanding that they know and follow all the law upon conversion. We will only give them these important commandments to initially observe:

Do not eat meat off of pagan altars (which would also require participation in the pagan ritual/celebration etc), abstain from sexual immorality, clean food which has been strangled (doesn't make much sense to avoid a strangled animal, if it everything were clean it would be clean no matter how it was killed), and from consuming blood.

For Moses is and has been proclaimed and read from in every city so the new converts will be able to learn the rest as they go."


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Elin: What is your basis for this statement?
Well, Acts is my basis for that statement. Need to get the kids ready for bed but I'll get more into it later.
 
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WheresEnoch

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Everything that lived and moved, including swine, was clean food (Ge 9:3) until the Mosaic law.

Clean and unclean applied only to the sacrifices until the Mosaic law.

When the Mosaic covenant was made obsolete by the new covenant (Heb 8:13), and the Levitical
priesthood was changed (Heb 7:11) to the priesthood of Melchizedek with a new eternal High Priest,
the Mosaic law, which depended on the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:12) for its administration,
was also set aside (Heb 7:18-19), including the law's establishment of unclean foods.

There are no unclean foods in the NT (Ro 14:14), just as there were none (Ge 9:3) before the Mosaic law.
The regulation was temporary to teach/show/pattern the meaning of spiritual uncleanness, which must be cleansed and is fulfilled in Christ, as are all the patterns, copies, shadows of the Mosaic law.
Melchizedek was a High Priest of God in Jerusalem. A High Priest would have to know God's laws... He even knew of Christ I bet because when Abraham met Melchizedek (after defeating the troublemaking kings), Melchizedek brought out bread and wine and blessed Abraham, that may not mean much to some people but is pretty symbolic to me (especially when you consider that Christ was from the order of Melchizedek and Melchizedek knew about Abraham and what God was doing with him). Pretty sure he knew what animals were clean and which were unclean, even Noah did and that was before God allowed animals to be consumed. (I can only imagine that people were eating them rebelliously before the flood, they were doing all kinds of horrible things to warrant complete destruction).

God had Noah take 7 of each clean animal and only 2 of each unclean. When the get off the ark and God says, "You can eat animals now", do you think Noah ate from one of the unclean pairs of animals? (ending that species of animal by ending it's ability to reproduce). Even back in the time of Cain and Abel, they were performing animal sacrifices to please God (First fruits) and Cain did not obey God's instructions in some way which is why God was displeased with Cain who then killed Abel.

The book of Job is before Moses and he also was performing sacrifices for sins committed by his children. Take a look, he used clean animals.

In the early days of humanity the Lord and His angels met with mankind. He obviously must have given them some instruction.

I do not believe that God's laws have changed, only the promises associated with the different covenants. The physical prosperity of the nation of Israel vs everlasting life with Christ as Israel. and that the old covenant teachings focused on external obedience where the new covenant teachings focus on internal obedience.
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Then James says "We are not going to trouble the gentiles in such a way as circumcising them and demanding that they know and follow all the law upon conversion. We will only give them these important commandments to initially observe:

Do not eat meat off of pagan altars (which would also require participation in the pagan ritual/celebration etc), abstain from sexual immorality, clean food which has been strangled (doesn't make much sense to avoid a strangled animal, if it everything were clean it would be clean no matter how it was killed), and from consuming blood.

For Moses is and has been proclaimed and read from in every city so the new converts will be able to learn the rest as they go."


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Well, Acts is my basis for that statement. Need to get the kids ready for bed but I'll get more into it later.
Please quote the verse that says the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 was only "initially" for the Gentiles. After that, you can kindly quote the verse that says they have to learn the law of Moses later on. Just because Moses was proclaimed in the synagogue doesn't mean that they had to know or obey that law.

In fact, what was decided was that the new converts did not have to follow the Torah at all.

"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: [SUP]29 [/SUP]that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” Acts 15:28-29

Absolutely no mention of teaching them the law of Moses, instead the new believers needed to learn about Jesus Christ. That is why Paul was teaching and preaching and writing letters, along with Peter, John and Jude to the new congregations. To tell them about Jesus and the Holy Spirit. NOT to teach them the Torah!
 
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Karraster

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JGIG

You posted something on a link for testimonies, assuming it's about messianics and saved Jews turning away from the Torah. Well take time and read this testimony.

I got "saved" when I was 7. That is when I accepted Christ, it was at a Christian church too. So few years later I'm in middle school, I was very anti following the OT to the point of anti-Semitism. In 7th grade I told a Jew he was going to hell, I was at that level of anti-Semitism. I followed the whole grace only show, and that following the OT was just for Jews. So now we get to high school, at this point in my life I was semi rebellious to my parents (mainly because they fought a lot, to the point where divorce could be in the picture, they weren't a happy couple). Now again my family is a big church going family, my mom was a children's ministry director. So anyway getting into my junior going into senior year the youth group minister is forced to step down and leave for not observing Christmas and Easter. This confused me, because I was always big on studying mythology (that was in middle and high school) so me knowing mythology and history this made sense to because neither Christmas nor Easter were technically mentioned in the bible. I had always heard of Passover as the last supper, I never realized it was actually mentioned in the bible outside of that. So I start doing bible studies with the former youth group minister. I started learning about Torah, I was mainly about the feasts at this point because that's what sparked my interest. Now at this time I'm just studying it, not observing. Between junior and my senior year I got my first job, it lasted 2 months. Well about a month after that I decided to start just observing 7th day Sabbath (friday sundown to saturday sundown) along with the commanded fests. Within a couple of months terms of employment for my sky rocketted. Now as far as my family I do remember my dad and I got in several arguments about Torah observance, and I found out his background was actually Jewish (he had been hiding it from me and my brothers because he was afraid of the judgement Jews get). So as a saved Jew he kept on going to the teachings of Paul (just like numerous folks on here do), long story short he gets to a point where he couldn't look at me sometimes. Now my mom, who was raised Baptists (key thing there, my mom was raised on the NT her whole life, her dad was a military pastor) she actually listened to me on what I was learning and going through, so she decided to start with the Sabbath and feast observance just as I did. Now every time I talked to my parents about this I always reassured them that Yeshua is my Lord and Savior, and salvation is through him. Anyway my mom at this time was diabetic, so a few months later we decided to follow dietary laws, within 2 months she is no longer diabetic (coincidence? I think not). This goes on for about a year and my dad starts to just observe 7th day Sabbath and the feast, to just check it out because he's never done it with a perspective of Yeshua in it. This continues on and a year or so later, my parents are no longer fighting and they're happy in their marriage again (and since then it has just gone uphill for them), now for me on the other hand I decided to walk away from the Torah walk and do my own thing. Within a month I lose my job and could not keep a job at all. Now my reason for the change I don't exactly know, my heart started not to be in the right place. I decided to turn away, but I did go start going to Christian church again because I felt that it was "easier" (I hate putting it that way because it makes Torah observance seem hard, and it's not). I started down a path that basically lead to a choice of jail time or the military. I obviously chose the military. So I slightly start getting in to teaching the word during basic training, I even lead a few people to Christ. Now I wasn't teaching Torah to them, I stayed away from the subject. Now after the military, I realized how well my parents relationship had gotten. I decided to slowly get back into a walk in Torah and so far I feel my life has been blessed immensely, and I thank God for it every single day. My parents walk and my walk with the Lord are stronger than ever.

So now based off of that testimony, if all those positive things came out of just simply following Torah, and doing so with Yeshua in it. How is that wrong out evil or against God? I don't see it at all.
Wow, thank you so much for sharing that. It's beautiful, what happens in the life of one who realizes the Master who created us also knows what is best for us. I can't remember a time I did not believe in Almighty Father and His Son who is the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. However, it was only in 2013 when i read the verse "..call on His Name.." and thought, hey I would like to..what is it? That was the beginning of something so wonderful I have no words..it was about 2 weeks later I knew about Sabbath, and the rest is unfolding continually, just a peace filled walk with my Maker.:) Praise and all glory to Him, for He called to me it was not my doing.

May He bless you continually and give you grace to always walk that narrow path. :)~k
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
Please quote the verse that says the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 was only "initially" for the Gentiles. After that, you can kindly quote the verse that says they have to learn the law of Moses later on. Just because Moses was proclaimed in the synagogue doesn't mean that they had to know or obey that law.

In fact, what was decided was that the new converts did not have to follow the Torah at all.

"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: [SUP]29 [/SUP]that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” Acts 15:28-29

Absolutely no mention of teaching them the law of Moses, instead the new believers needed to learn about Jesus Christ. That is why Paul was teaching and preaching and writing letters, along with Peter, John and Jude to the new congregations. To tell them about Jesus and the Holy Spirit. NOT to teach them the Torah!
Those things were from the Torah and again, these are commandments which have to deal with how to keep clean food from becoming unclean when killing and preparing it... What would be the point of these commandments if everything were clean? These laws speak against talking part in pagan celebrations and sacrifices, sexual immorality (which is defined in the Torah) and how to properly prepare food. Where does it say in the Bible that God's laws have changed?

Acts 15 just deals with bringing gentiles into the faith... That is when circumcision would be required, in the beginning of their walk. James says "we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, which also implies those who are new to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...Christ and the Father

Tell me where Christ says that the things He taught are irrelevant. The whole key to this is understanding that we are not saved by perfect obedience but by faith, however obedience is a natural result of loving God as we learn and grow in the faith. Those who learn something new as the grow in Christ, such as do not entertain lustful thoughts yet choose to disregard God and continue to dwell and act on such thoughts are in rebellion
 
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WheresEnoch

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*The whole key to this is understanding that we are not saved by perfect obedience but by faith, however obedience is a natural result of loving God as we learn and grow in the faith. - And that God's laws are all about loving God and other people.
 
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WheresEnoch

Guest
Just wanted to share one more thing before I go to bed to think about.

Hebrews 8
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.



Paul tells us that the old covenant was imperfect. Not because God's commandments were imperfect, but because the promises associated with them were imperfect and peoples ability to observe them was flawed. Neither the levitical priesthood or the other laws were capable of bringing about the forgiveness of sins, love, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, adoption as children by the Father etc.

The Law does not make man perfect

  • Heb. 7:19 – “law made nothing perfect
  • Heb. 9:9 – “sacrifices cannot make worshiper perfect”
  • Heb. 10:1 – “the law can never make perfect”

Romans 7
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
 
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Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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It may help to qualify what you mean when you say the yoke that Peter is describing is the law of Moses. In what sense, exactly? Let's examine the claims against which they describe this yoke:

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” -- Acts 15:1 (NIV)

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” -- Acts 15:6 (NIV)

Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” -- Acts 15:10-11 (NIV)

How do you interpret the yoke being presented here?

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sparty-g's view on these things:

I see a few issues being discussed: ritual conversion by circumcision (Gentiles becoming proselyte Jews), keeping the Torah-Law of Moses, and salvation.

Requiring ritual conversion by circumcision in order to be saved would mean that Gentiles (in their uncircumcised state) cannot be saved; instead, it would mean that one must enter the kingdom through this gate of becoming Jewish. But the disciples knew this wasn't the case since Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in their uncircumcised state. I believe this to be part of the unbearable yoke (especially if you consider that most of these would have been adults being circumcised, which in 1st c. AD doesn't seem like it would be easy to bear; whereas natural born Jews are circumcised as a baby on the eighth day).

Next, keeping the Torah-Law of Moses in order to be saved would certainly be an unbearable yoke. As Peter says, their ancestors were not able to bear it, which is true because they were never required to bear such a burden of keeping the Torah-Law of Moses for salvation. Salvation was always by the grace of God and not the end result of some manner of Torah-Law keeping. Abraham was called out, set apart, and declared righteous by faith. The exodus story shows the same principle: the Israelites were brought out of Egypt first as their status as a holy people was being restored and they became a set-apart nation, and the Torah-Law came after; this was not the end result of keeping any manner of the Torah-Law first in Egypt before God rescued them.

So, I see Peter's yoke as requiring ritual conversion and Torah-Law keeping before salvation by the grace of God is given. I do not believe this was required before the Messiah's time and is not required after the Messiah's time, so there was no reason to put this unfair burden on Gentiles if it never even applied to Israelites and is contrary to the way God handles salvation. Likewise, the yoke of which the Messiah speaks is easy; not the burdensome result of man's work, and it is especially light compared to the ministry of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, who had taken the Torah-Law of Moses and transformed it into a heavy burden with their additional man-made regulations.

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” -- Matt. 11:28-30
I think the yoke is keeping the law of Moses... I don't think it's circumcision, because Peter says he and his fathers couldn't bear it... but they were very likely circumcised as babies... very easy to bear...

James writes, "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay no greater burden on you than these necessary things"... now, those things James wants them to do, are they for salvation? I don't think so... so, I think they must relate to life after salvation...

so, I think the 'no greater burden' would refer to trying to keep more than those four 'necessary things.'
 

Dan_473

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Actually, they need a particular Jewish parent.
well, I meant 'Jews' as 'Jewish humans', and since humans need two parents, it's safe to say each Jewish person today has two parents... each of them had two parents, and so on...

so, since converts to Judaism are rare, I think it's reasonable to view today's Jewish people as decended from Judah...
 

Dan_473

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James did not give Paul advice on how to "fit in" when Paul went to Jerusalem.

And Paul, with no advice from James, had Timothy circumcised in order to be more effective in his work among the unconverted Jews.

Nor did the regulations Paul took to Antioch include prohibition of unclean foods according to the Mosaic law.
sure looks like 'fit in' advice to me... James wants the Jewish believers, who are zealous for the law, to see Paul as a law keeper...

now, your other two points, which are both true... I don't see how they relate to Jewish believers and law keeping... clarify, plzzzzz
 

Dan_473

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And also it's not the "law of Moses", Moses didn't make it. So if there is a law of Moses, I wouldn't follow it because that means it was man-mad. There is the law of God which is Torah, which God gave to Moses, but I still have not found any scripture stating that it belonged to Moses. That is wrong terminology.
the phrase 'law of Moses' is used in the nt...
also, James says 'Moses from generations of old has in every city those who preach him...'
 

Dan_473

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Still I concider it God's law because God wrote it, not Moses.

Anyway, let's take this on a different route.
How would you follow or live your lifestyle of following the commandments (which Yeshua pulled from Torah) of loving God and love your neighbor. How do you follow these things? How do you live that?
I would say, walk by the spirit... do those things that lead to growing the fruit of the spirit... try to diminish the works of the flesh...
 

Dan_473

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Then James says "We are not going to trouble the gentiles in such a way as circumcising them and demanding that they know and follow all the law upon conversion. We will only give them these important commandments to initially observe:
James ends with 'from which if you keep yourselves, it will be well with you'... to me, that sounds like an ongoing lifestyle, not just something for the beginning...
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
I would say legalism is anything a person does to try and establish their own righteousness, any attempts to impress God, or to distinguish themselves above others, going through the motions, as opposed to being righteous solely because it's right, because it's the minimal service of we who will always fall far short of the glory of God in our own rights, no matter what we do, we who have absolutely nothing to boast about, righteousness solely because it is like Jesus, of the Lord God we are to love with all our hearts. Not about me, but Thee. If it's about me, if it's hooked to any vanity, it's legalism and false religion.
 
S

sparty-g

Guest
sure looks like 'fit in' advice to me... James wants the Jewish believers, who are zealous for the law, to see Paul as a law keeper...
I don't think we have to speculate too much on the motive behind James' request to Paul. The motive is recorded:

Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. -- Acts 21:24b (NIV)

I don't see anything here about fitting in or about wanting Jewish believers to see Paul as a law keeper when he actually wasn't. Are we to believe that James and Paul were co-conspirators in a very serious public deception?

And what are the reports in which James says there is no truth?

They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. -- Acts 21:21 (NIV)

I'm interested to see the other side of the argument here so that I can broaden my understanding of these verses.