What was the language spoken before Babel

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M

Miri

Guest
#21
I don't know much about ancient languages so can't really give an informed opinion.
but one thing which came to kind is the following verses.

1 Corinthians 13:1 AMP
[1] IF I can speak in the tongues of men and even of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

What is the tongue of Angels? Could this have been the original language?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#22
keep seeking. the answer is so simple, and totally in line with all of TORAH and SCRIPTURE. and doesn't require
twisting truth into convoluted explanations.

think about what yahweh says the enemy appears as later in Scripture.

and forget what men say about what Scripture says that requires bending over backwards.

the truth is simple. men just don't like it.
Thanks. This is a curious statement that you make. All I can think of is the scripture in Ezekiel 28:12-15 defining the 9 stones of Lucifer, 3 less than the 12 tribes, and the stones in the foundation of the New Jerusalem, all comparable. The other thing that popped into my mind was who might have been the witness of Job's situation. The writer is unknown, but what is really curious to me is how was the information obtained concerning the conversation Satan had with God in the heavens concerning the negotiations over Job, and what language was spoken between them?

Job 1:6-12
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

ו וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם--וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל-יְהוָה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם-הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם

ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-הַשָּׂטָן, מֵאַיִן תָּבֹא; וַיַּעַן הַשָּׂטָן אֶת-יְהוָה, וַיֹּאמַר, מִשּׁוּט בָּאָרֶץ, וּמֵהִתְהַלֵּךְ בָּה

ח וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-הַשָּׂטָן, הֲשַׂמְתָּ לִבְּךָ עַל-עַבְדִּי אִיּוֹב: כִּי אֵין כָּמֹהוּ בָּאָרֶץ, אִישׁ תָּם וְיָשָׁר יְרֵא אֱלֹהִים וְסָר מֵרָע

ט וַיַּעַן הַשָּׂטָן אֶת-יְהוָה, וַיֹּאמַר: הַחִנָּם, יָרֵא אִיּוֹב אֱלֹהִים

י
י הֲלֹא-את (אַתָּה) שַׂכְתָּ בַעֲדוֹ וּבְעַד-בֵּיתוֹ, וּבְעַד כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ--מִסָּבִיב: מַעֲשֵׂה יָדָיו בֵּרַכְתָּ, וּמִקְנֵהוּ פָּרַץ בָּאָרֶץ

יא וְאוּלָם שְׁלַח-נָא יָדְךָ, וְגַע בְּכָל-אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ--אִם-לֹא עַל-פָּנֶיךָ, יְבָרְכֶךָּ

יב וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-הַשָּׂטָן, הִנֵּה כָל-אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ בְּיָדֶךָ--רַק אֵלָיו, אַל-תִּשְׁלַח יָדֶךָ; וַיֵּצֵא, הַשָּׂטָן, מֵעִם, פְּנֵי יְהוָה


The language of Job stands out for its conservative spelling and for its exceptionally large number of words and forms not found elsewhere in the Bible.[SUP][21][/SUP] The 12th century Jewish scholar Ibn Ezra concluded that the book must have been written in some other language and translated into Hebrew, and many later scholars down to the 20th century looked for an Aramaic, Arabic or Edomite original; but a close analysis suggests that the foreign words and foreign-looking forms are literary affectations designed to lend authenticity to the book's distant setting.[SUP][22][/SUP]
The book exists in a number of forms; the Hebrew Masoretic Text, which underlies many modern Bible translations, the Greek Septuagint made in Egypt in the last centuries BCE, and Aramaic and Hebrew manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
 
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Jan 25, 2015
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#23
Even if Hebrew was the original langauge
and even though English is most widespread now
that doesn't mean that if I say something in Norwegian it will make sense to you if I first translate it to Hebrew and then back to English :)
Not to derail this thread, but it is a common misconception that English is the most widespread language on earth today. If we account for Africa you will find that French and Portuguese (I think) is more wide spread than English :)
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#24
Not to derail this thread, but it is a common misconception that English is the most widespread language on earth today. If we account for Africa you will find that French and Portuguese (I think) is more wide spread than English :)
But going forward, do you think it'll become the primary language spoken around the world?

I don't know if I even asked that right, I am half asleep lol
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#25
But going forward, do you think it'll become the primary language spoken around the world?

I don't know if I even asked that right, I am half asleep lol
The way things are developing it could be Chinese :D... but on a serious note yes valid comment.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#26
I don't know much about ancient languages so can't really give an informed opinion.
but one thing which came to kind is the following verses.

1 Corinthians 13:1 AMP
[1] IF I can speak in the tongues of men and even of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

What is the tongue of Angels? Could this have been the original language?
Good point. From what I understand is that the "tongues of Angels" is delivering a message, and "tongues of men" are conversations not pertaining to a message sent from God.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#27
The way things are developing it could be Chinese :D... but on a serious note yes valid comment.
Ahh Chinese, yes, there are a lot of them..buying up land in Australia..and driving up house prices...wait, I can't imagine myself speaking Mandarin.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#28
Ahh Chinese, yes, there are a lot of them..buying up land in Australia..and driving up house prices...wait, I can't imagine myself speaking Mandarin.
Fortunately for us there are to many Mandarin dialects and they don't understand each other.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#29
I suspect it was a mixture of all languages in primitive form. Each grouping would the develop it in different ways. We know that a form of proto-Hebrew was spoken at Ebla c 2300 BC, but it was not Hebrew as we would recognise it. The non-Amorite Sumerians spoke a very different language.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#30
I don't know much about ancient languages so can't really give an informed opinion.
but one thing which came to kind is the following verses.

1 Corinthians 13:1 AMP
[1] IF I can speak in the tongues of men and even of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

What is the tongue of Angels? Could this have been the original language?
Wow, you are getting so close to the truth here! There was a first language spoken, but there wasn't anything special, magical or holy about it... all language is earthly and insignificant. But the special, magical and holy language is the tongue of angels. Our bible (KJV) is written in tongues.

This is so cool, I hope you can see what I'm talking about. The bible is a message from God to his people (Christians), yet anybody (non-Christians) can pick it up and read it... hence the bible is written in code. That code is the tongue of angels (messenger). Earthly language is insignificant and is only the vehicle or carrier of the holy language.:D

One last thing, beware of the Hebrew Roots movement. They teach that all the secrets of God are hidden in the Hebrew language and pictograms.... This is simply not true!
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#31
So many opinions to choose from... WOW why don't we read the Bible and trust God for the answer.

The logic of some people. Moses wrote the Torah in Hebrew but God spoke a different language when He created earth? Really?! That makes perfect sense to me. Maybe God will give me a message in Moon-language that could be preserved for future generations as nobody understand what I am writing now.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#32
So many opinions to choose from... WOW why don't we read the Bible and trust God for the answer.

The logic of some people. Moses wrote the Torah in Hebrew but God spoke a different language when He created earth? Really?! That makes perfect sense to me. Maybe God will give me a message in Moon-language that could be preserved for future generations as nobody understand what I am writing now.
It appears that the one language spoken before Babel is closely related to Abram. According to what I have read in the first book of Enoch (I cannot remember what chapter and verse) Abraham re-established the language of “Eber” henceforth he is called a Hebrew. In Genesis 14:13 is the first time that term is used in the Bible. Then Abraham's name was changed with the addition of (ha ה) signifying God's grace that gave faith to Abraham.

“And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew (עברי)--now he dwelt by the terebinths of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner; and these were confederate with Abram.”

Hebrew עברי5680 `Ibriy ib-ree' patronymic from 5677; an Eberite (i.e. Hebrew) or descendant of
(אבר) Eber:--Hebrew(-ess, woman).

Eber עבר5677 `Eber ay'-ber the same as 5676; Eber, the name of two patriarchs and four Israelites:--Eber, Heber.

Genesis 10:21
Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, (אבר) the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
כא וּלְשֵׁם יֻלַּד, גַּם-הוּא אֲבִי, כָּל-בְּנֵי-עֵבֶר--אֲחִי, יֶפֶת הַגָּדוֹל

Curiously, the first two applications of this root עבר ('abar) are in names. The first time this root appears is in the name Eber (Genesis 10:21; all the sons of Eber). The second instance of our root is in the first occurrence of the name עברי ('ibri or Hebrew) in Genesis 14:13, where Abram is called a Hebrew.

This seems to suggest that the kind of transition this root conveys takes signature precedence in Eber, and the result of Eber's transition is the Hebrews and their transition.

Nimrod is mentioned in Genesis 10:8-10 and the beginning of his kingdom. This was before the confounding of languages mentioned in Genesis 11:7 for in Genesis 11:1 it says “And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.”

So the first language that was spoken or written is very closely related to the Hebrew language if not the exact written Hebrew of the Pentateuch, for the “Eber” was the language of Shem who survived the flood during the time of Noah.

Arguments in a gentle way are welcomed.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#33
Oh, boy, KJV! Your claim about the KJV is ridiculous. But good try.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#34
It appears that the one language spoken before Babel is closely related to Abram. According to what I have read in the first book of Enoch (I cannot remember what chapter and verse) Abraham re-established the language of “Eber” henceforth he is called a Hebrew. In Genesis 14:13 is the first time that term is used in the Bible. Then Abraham's name was changed with the addition of (ha ה) signifying God's grace that gave faith to Abraham.

“And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew (עברי)--now he dwelt by the terebinths of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner; and these were confederate with Abram.”

Hebrew עברי5680 `Ibriy ib-ree' patronymic from 5677; an Eberite (i.e. Hebrew) or descendant of
(אבר) Eber:--Hebrew(-ess, woman).

Eber עבר5677 `Eber ay'-ber the same as 5676; Eber, the name of two patriarchs and four Israelites:--Eber, Heber.

Genesis 10:21
Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, (אבר) the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born.
כא וּלְשֵׁם יֻלַּד, גַּם-הוּא אֲבִי, כָּל-בְּנֵי-עֵבֶר--אֲחִי, יֶפֶת הַגָּדוֹל

Curiously, the first two applications of this root עבר ('abar) are in names. The first time this root appears is in the name Eber (Genesis 10:21; all the sons of Eber). The second instance of our root is in the first occurrence of the name עברי ('ibri or Hebrew) in Genesis 14:13, where Abram is called a Hebrew.

This seems to suggest that the kind of transition this root conveys takes signature precedence in Eber, and the result of Eber's transition is the Hebrews and their transition.

Nimrod is mentioned in Genesis 10:8-10 and the beginning of his kingdom. This was before the confounding of languages mentioned in Genesis 11:7 for in Genesis 11:1 it says “And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.”

So the first language that was spoken or written is very closely related to the Hebrew language if not the exact written Hebrew of the Pentateuch, for the “Eber” was the language of Shem who survived the flood during the time of Noah.

Arguments in a gentle way are welcomed.
First of all, the book of Enoch is not inspired scripture so we can throw that out.

Next, according to your reasoning, the first language spoken was Hebrew because the Hebrew word "Eber" is in the word "Hebrew"? All that proves is that Hebrews are descendants of Eber... How does that prove Hebrew was the first language?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#35
IMO and there is no real way that we can know 100% for sure which language was the 1st I will say the following.....

I personally believe it was Hebrew......

At the end of the day though it is all speculation........I suppose!
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#36
First of all, the book of Enoch is not inspired scripture so we can throw that out.

Next, according to your reasoning, the first language spoken was Hebrew because the Hebrew word "Eber" is in the word "Hebrew"? All that proves is that Hebrews are descendants of Eber... How does that prove Hebrew was the first language?
First off, I never said that Enoch was the inspired word of God. Abram is seen as a Hebrew in the KJV same as an Englishman is seen as English being the language, or a Spaniard being from Spain and speaking Spanish.

Second I never wrote that Eber/abar was actually the same word as Hebrew. Please read it again, they are close except for one letter. עבר עברי

Third, what it proves is that what Shem and Eber spoke was closely related to what Abram spoke, Abram related to a language called Hebrew in the KJV that we both read.
You endorse the KJV, so read the suggested scripture and see the chronology and genealogy in your Bible in this post
 
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M

Miri

Guest
#37
You will have to bare with me on this post folks.

i'm not saying that I have got this right or think this is entirely correct, it's just that I have been musing over this thread and the following thoughts and possible alternative ideas came to mind. It may be a load of hokum pokum or maybe there is some grains of truth in this. See what you think.

Is it possible that in the next life in heaven the way of communicating will not be on the form of language that we currently have and will take an entirely different form.

just a few verses for consideration


Revelation 1:15-17 NKJV
[15] His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; [16] He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. [17] And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.


In this his voice was as the sound of many waters.

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Revelation 4:1 NKJV
[1] After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."


in this this the voice was like a trumpet

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Revelation 6:1 NKJV
[1] Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."

in in this the voice was like thunder

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Revelation 7:9 NKJV
[9] After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,, [10] and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

in this there were people of all tongues but they all cried out together and spoke together. Maybe they were all hearing and understanding all known languages.


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Revelation 10:2-4 NKJV
[2] He had a little book open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, [3] and cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. When he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices. [4] Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them."

voice as when a lion roars and the seven thunders uttered their voices, this appears to relate to the 7 Angels with the 7 trumpets.

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Revelation 14:2 NKJV
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.

the voice of many waters and loud thunder again


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Job 37:5 NKJV
[5] God thunders marvelously with His voice; He does great things which we cannot comprehend.

Note this is from Job one of the oldest books in the bible.

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Isaiah 6:1-4 NKJV
[1] In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. [2] Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. [3] And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!" [4] And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

What we think of as speech would not make the door posts shake and vibrate.

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The language of heaven as mentioned several times in Revelation, seems to be primarily concerned with worship. What if heaven will be a place where we will understand all forms of language and communication whether that is human verbal sounds, the sounds of nature water, thunder, fire etc , (all creation groans due to the fall), the sounds of animals (the lion will lie with the lamb who will also understand each other), that worship will not just be sound but might also be a form of communication, what if even colour and light will be a form of communication. There is a lot of symbolism in the bible much incorporating colour.


Maybe it's a little impertinent to think human language will be the only form of communication. No eyes have seen no ears have heard etc.....

:)
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#38
You will have to bare with me on this post folks.

i'm not saying that I have got this right or think this is entirely correct, it's just that I have been musing over this thread and the following thoughts and possible alternative ideas came to mind. It may be a load of hokum pokum or maybe there is some grains of truth in this. See what you think.
Good scripture that you presented in your post. One thing that needs to be recognized is when Paul/Saul was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damascus to persecute Christians, Jesus spoke to Him from heaven in the Hebrew language when that language was not the main one during that day.

"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Acts 26:14
 
M

Miri

Guest
#39
Good scripture that you presented in your post. One thing that needs to be recognized is when Paul/Saul was confronted by Jesus on the road to Damascus to persecute Christians, Jesus spoke to Him from heaven in the Hebrew language when that language was not the main one during that day.

"And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Acts 26:14


I can see where you are coming from, I suppose the point I was trying to get across is what if heaven is not limited to the Hebrew language, or what if it is not limited to any known human language. What if it is spectacularly beyond anything we can comprehend. :)

Visually i believe this will be the case, why not aurally.
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#40
Regarding overlapping sounds in English, that is precisely my point! English is extremely derivative. Thirty percent is Germanic based, thirty percent French or Romance based, the rest from other languages. The Normans conquering England in 1066 brought a whole new set of words, which were more common to the upper class. It's why the word "steak" comes from the French word, because the nobles ate the steak. But they never dealt with the animal it came from, that was done by the now conquered lower class Anglo Saxons who raised the cows. Studying both Frenxh and German, it is fascinating to see the cognate words for English words.

Regarding proto-Hebrew I confess I really don't know enough about the early languages to know the differences. It is an interesting chart. But I do believe Hebrew shows a western influence, seeing as there are letter orders in some places of the alphabet which are similar to Greek, and ultimately to our alphabet. As for which language came first, Greek or Hebrew I don't know if that is known.

My point is that the ancient phoenician already had the same overlapping sounds, which actually don't quite overlap; but, actually are similar; but phonetically distinct