When does the rapture occur?

[MarcR]

In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that

• Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
• at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
• which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
• which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
• which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
  (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,

so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.

There will certainly be only one second coming! the rapture ( during which those alive in Crrist will be caught up [raptured] to meey Jesus in the air after the dead in Christ (not those dead in their sins) are taken up before them; must be a separate event from the second coming: since at the rapture Jesus does NOT set foot on the earth; but at the second coming He does.

1 Th 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

 

[PlainWord]

Bravo! You proved what we agree on. Jesus returns AFTER THE GT. We ALL know that.

I need proof of a postrib RAPTURE. As in saints rising up from the earth while alive postrib.

You showed me zero

There are no definitive passages that provide the timing of the Rapture (catch up and/or transformation of living) relative to the "Great Tribulation." Why is that? Because the Great Tribulation isn't linked to the Rapture. So, let's put the Great Tribulation aside for a moment as there are passages that locate the Rapture relative to other key events.

Paul says, "...And the dead in Christ will rise first." Paul affirms this again, "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." From this we can be sure that the Dead Rise (Resurrection) before the Rapture/changing.

Thus, the Rapture is after the resurrection, likely within the same hour or two. While we are not told specifically when the Rapture takes place, we are told conclusively and many, many times when the resurrection happens. The resurrection is on the "LAST DAY."

John 6:40: ...that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54: Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So I've provided four passages that prove the resurrection is on that last day. What else happens on the Last Day? How about the Judgment?

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

THIS IS IMPORTANT. We see the wicked are judged on the Last Day, the Same last day where the righteous are resurrected. We see the judgment and resurrection linked together in multiple passages (here are a few examples):

John 5:28: for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. [SUP]30 [/SUP]I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge...

Rom 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.

1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts...

2 Tim 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom

1 Pet 4:5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead

Rev 19:11 And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.

Notice above Christ isn't judging until His Second Coming when He returns to make war and execute justice. Now as we see below, the judgment happens at the end, at the Second Coming. Again, the wicked and just are judged during the same last day. The Books cannot be opened before the Great Tribulation is over as many bad acts (and good) will take place during the Great Tribulation. It is during the Great Tribulation that the Man of Sin comes and that the Mark of the Beast is taken and that the saints are killed in huge numbers. Thus, the wicked cannot be judged until after the Tribulation is over so that all their wickedness can be punished. We see that here.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Dan 12:1 And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. [SUP]4 [/SUP]“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end;

So, the Resurrection is at the end and the judgment is at the end. Since the Rapture clearly happens after the resurrection, it HAS TO BE at the end too. There isn't going to be a resurrection, rapture and judgment before the tribulation then another resurrection, rapture, judgment after the tribulation. We have a solid teaching that there are just two resurrections with Christ being the first, the second is everyone else.

1 Cor 15: [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father...

Paul does not speak of 3 resurrections, he speaks only of two. After the second which happens at Christ's Coming (emphasis added as many think Christ doesn't come until His feet touch ground which would make this the Second Coming and not some hovering in the sky), the end comes!! See that? Then Comes the End, not the Tribulation, the END!!

 

[PlainWord]

Then you are the only one I know on earth that believes that. IT says it is the LAMB, Jesus Christ, who is GOD in the Flesh, meaning the Spirit in Jesus is part of GOD. You don't believe Jesus is GOD in the Flesh, do you?

Yes, they are both one GOD along with the Holy Spirit. Let's not have the Trinity debate here. Jesus and God are mentioned separately throughout scripture and while they are the same, distinctions are made all the time.

ALSO REMEMBER NOT TO PUT GOD IN A BOX. He is Not a old man with a white beard, that is Santa Claus.

Actually He is.

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.

The gathering mentioned there most likely is the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints.

We all get resurrected together. Paul makes that point crystal clear.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end.

Paul makes clear that Christ is the firstfruits of the dead - Christ only.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

That means everyone else is resurrected when Christ returns. Since we have many, many passages that tell us about a Second Coming of Christ at the end, there is no room for another early return before the Great Tribulation.

He will Come as Bridegroom First to Call Out His BRIDE, then Seven years later HE the will come with GREAT POWER AND GLORY.

Only one future return of Christ is taught. You've invented the other. Don't have itching ears:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is a fable. Paul teaches that we are to endure afflictions, not fly away from them.

 

[VCO]

I agree. ( Not with the first sentence, however. )

I never said that 70 A.D. was the "Hour of Trial" -- that is yet future -- at the END of the Great Tribulation.

What I have said:

~ 70 A.D. marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

~ We are still in it.

~ The end of it is in the future.

~ The worst of it is yet to come.

I disagree, the Great Tribulation is a Maximum of 7 years, or maybe just the last half of that seven years, starting when Antichrist takes over the THIRD TEMPLE, demanding to be worshiped. During that week of years, all the beheaded Martyrs come out of the Great Tribulation. The BEGINNING OF IT is when Antichrist Makes a supposed Peace Treaty with ISRAEL and her enemies, and the END of it is when CHRIST RETURNS to make WAR against the Nations of the Antichrist. It is also the 70th WEEK OF DANIEL.

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

9:27a. This verse unveils what will occur in the 70th seven years. This seven-year period will begin after the Rapture of the church (which will consummate God's program in this present Age). The 70th "seven" will continue till the return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Because Jesus said this will be a time of "great distress" (Matt. 24:21), this period is often called the Tribulation.

A significant event that will mark the beginning of this seven-year period is the confirming of a covenant. This covenant will be made with many, that is, with Daniel's people, the nation Israel. "The ruler who will come" (Dan. 9:26) will be this covenant-maker, for that person is the antecedent of the word he in verse 27. As a yet-future ruler he will be the final head of the fourth empire (the little horn of the fourth beast, 7:8).


The covenant he will make will evidently be a peace covenant, in which he will guarantee Israel's safety in the land. This suggests that Israel will be in her land but will be unable to defend herself for she will have lost any support she may have had previously. Therefore she will need and welcome the peacemaking role of this head of the confederation of 10 European (Roman) nations. In offering this covenant, this ruler will pose as a prince of peace, and Israel will accept his authority. But then in the middle of that "seven," after three and one-half years, he will break the covenant. According to 11:45, he will then move from Europe into the land of Israel.


This ruler will end... sacrifice and offering. This expression refers to the entire Levitical system, which suggests that Israel will have restored that system in the first half of the 70th "seven." After this ruler gains worldwide political power, he will assume power in the religious realm as well and will cause the world to worship him (2 Thes. 2:4; Rev. 13:8). To receive such worship, he will terminate all organized religions. Posing as the world's rightful king and god and as Israel's prince of peace, he will then turn against Israel and become her destroyer and defiler.


9:27b. Daniel was told that "the ruler who will come" (v. 26) will place abominations on a wing of the temple. Christ referred to this incident: "You [will] see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation" (Matt. 24:15). John wrote that the false prophet will set up an image to this ruler and that the world will be compelled to worship it (Rev. 13:14-15). But then his end will come (the end that is decreed is poured out on him). With his false prophet he will be cast into the lake of fire when Christ returns to the earth (Rev. 19:20; cf. Dan. 7:11, 26).


This covenant could not have been made or confirmed by Christ at His First Advent, as amillenarians teach, because: (a) His ministry did not last seven years, (b) His death did not stop sacrifices and offerings, (c) He did not set up "the abomination that causes desolation" (Matt. 24:15). Amillenarians suggest that Christ confirmed (in the sense of fulfilling) the Abrahamic Covenant but the Gospels give no indication He did that in His First Advent.


As stated, the Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel at the beginning of the second half of the 70th "seven," that is, it will be broken for three and one-half years. This is called "a time, times, and half a time" (Dan. 7:25; 12:7; Rev. 12:14). The fact that this is the same as the three and one-half years, which in turn are equated with 1,260 days (Rev. 11:3; 12:6) and with 42 months (Rev. 11:2; 13:5), means that in Jewish reckoning each month has 30 days and each year 360 days. This confirms the 360-day Jewish year used in the calculations in the chart, "The 483 Years in the Jewish and Gregorian Calendars" (near Dan. 9:26a). Since the events in the 69 sevens (vv. 24-26) were fulfilled literally, the 70th "seven," yet unfulfilled, must likewise be fulfilled literally.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [Dan. 9:25-27].

Picture: The 70 Weeks Of Daniel Chapter 9​

The starting point for this period of 490 years is essential to the correct understanding of the prophecy. Since this period is projected into the Times of the Gentiles, it must fit into secular history and originate from some date connected with the Times of the Gentiles. Of course there have been many suggestions for a starting point: the decree of Cyrus (see Ezra 1:1-4); the decree of Darius (see Ezra 6:1-12); the decree of Artaxerxes -- at the seventh year of his reign (Ezra 7:11-26); but I feel that the decree of Artaxerxes in the twentieth year of his reign (Neh. 2:1-8) meets the requirements of verse 25. The commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem was issued in the month Nisan 445 B.C. That, then, will be our starting point.
The first seven weeks of forty-nine years bring us to 397 B.C. and to Malachi and the end of the Old Testament. These were "troublous times," as witnessed by both Nehemiah and Malachi.
Sixty-two weeks, or 434 years, bring us to the Messiah. Sir Robert Anderson in his book, The Coming Prince, has worked out the time schedule. From the first of the month Nisan to the tenth of Nisan (April 6) A.D. 32, is 173,880 days. Dividing them according to the Jewish year of 360 days, he arrives at 483 years (69 sevens). On this day Jesus rode into Jerusalem, offering Himself for the first time, publicly and officially, as the Messiah.
After the 69 weeks, or 483 years, there is a time break. Between the sixty-ninth and Seventieth Week two events of utmost importance are to take place:
1. Messiah will be cut off. This was the crucifixion of Christ, the great mystery and truth of the gospel: "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matt. 16:21). "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:15).
2. Destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in A.D. 70, when Titus the Roman was the instrument.
The final "week" (the seventieth), a period of seven years, is projected into the future and does not follow chronologically the other sixty-nine. The time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks is the age of grace -- unknown to the prophets (Eph. 3:1-12; 1Pet. 1:10-12). The Seventieth Week is eschatological; it is the final period and is yet unfulfilled.
"The prince" is a Roman; he is the "little horn" of Daniel 7; he is "the beast" of Revelation 13. After the church is removed from the earth, he will make a covenant with Israel. Israel will accept him as her Messiah, but in the midst of the "week" he will break his covenant by placing an image in the temple (Rev. 13). This is the abomination of desolation. What Israel thought to be the Millennium will turn out to be the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-26). Only the coming of Christ can end this frightful period (Matt. 24:27-31).
My friend, you and I are living in the age of grace, and the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Great Tribulation, as the Lord Jesus called it, is yet to take place.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

My commentary by J. Vernon McGee, has a Time Line Chart in it that would not show up. So I found a similar one, that does not have the Rapture mentioned on it, however we believe it has to be Prior to the Antichrist signing the 7 Year Peace Covenant with ISRAEL, which CERTAINLY will make HEADLINE NEWS on TV. That Seven Year Treaty WILL end with Christ coming Back, therefore the CALLING OUT of the BRIDE (Rapture) has to be Prior to the signing of that Treaty, or we will know the day Christ is returning, BECAUSE, we believe Jesus Christ HIMSELF ENDS the Antichrist's Reign Seven year Reign, at the Battle of Armageddon, seven years to the DAY.

Here is that similar CHART to the one J. Vernon McGee used in his Commentary:

 

[VCO]

Now that bottom one of J. Vernon McGee's decided it was going to show up, It is the bottom one.

 

[JesusIsAll]

therefore the CALLING OUT of the BRIDE (Rapture) has to be Prior to the signing of that Treaty, or we will know the day Christ is returning

Denial of imminence clearly taught in scripture is a painful silliness. For all the post-tribber rhetoric about people not believing their viewpoint spawn of Satan and headed to a delusional abyss, yesterday some parable of a deceiver coming to my door to fake a rapture one can't even find a way of seriously responding to, what seems evil to me is a doctrine that can lead to the conclusion no need to have Oil in your lamp, until you've seen the Antichrist. I'm looking everyday for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist, and scripture agrees with me, therefore I'd be a fool to think any different.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

*therefore the CALLING OUT of the BRIDE (Rapture) has to be Prior to the signing of that Treaty, or we will know the day Christ is returning.

---------------------------------------------------------

God always calls His Own out of the Apostasy.. Correct, be ye separate, one way He achieves that is to allow the enemy to come in, present 'truth' as a lie... or half truths, or un sound doctrine, God's Own His elect will not follow that but the Spirit will lead them to separate from that.. going into Daniels 70th week, most of what you see today , what calls itself the 'bride of Christ' full of divsion, un sound doctrine, heresy, will upon Daniels 70th Week starting will be 'molded' into that one big jello mold of Apostasy, thus Fulfilling the role of the Harlot of Revelation 17, that global apostate psuedo 'corporate' bride that will use pharmacuetical medication to medicate the masses into its 'christlike ' image.. when certain individuals DONT 'ACT' or behave the utopian christ like image is portrayed. His Elect will be called out of this abomination, her foreshadowing is here.. with her tentacles in about everything that is organized on this planet , from business, to sports, to organized religion. one may ask how does all these groups 'co mingles ' as one corporate false body? the MAN OF SIN.. will do that.. he's coming with great charismatic power and peace.. but its false. you see the foreshadowing of him in the likes of many who stir the TV Airwaves or Radio airwaves today.. Robertson, Osteen, etc..... holding out an 'image'. of a man made christ.. God will Call Out His Elect from that stuff.. no part in it!

 

[JesusIsAll]

*therefore the CALLING OUT of the BRIDE (Rapture) has to be Prior to the signing of that Treaty, or we will know the day Christ is returning.

---------------------------------------------------------

God always calls His Own out of the Apostasy.. Correct, be ye separate, one way He achieves that is to allow the enemy to come in, present 'truth' as a lie... or half truths, or un sound doctrine, God's Own His elect will not follow that but the Spirit will lead them to separate from that.. going into Daniels 70th week, most of what you see today , what calls itself the 'bride of Christ' full of divsion, un sound doctrine, heresy, will upon Daniels 70th Week starting will be 'molded' into that one big jello mold of Apostasy, thus Fulfilling the role of the Harlot of Revelation 17, that global apostate psuedo 'corporate' bride that will use pharmacuetical medication to medicate the masses into its 'christlike ' image.. when certain individuals DONT 'ACT' or behave the utopian christ like image is portrayed. His Elect will be called out of this abomination, her foreshadowing is here.. with her tentacles in about everything that is organized on this planet , from business, to sports, to organized religion. one may ask how does all these groups 'co mingles ' as one corporate false body? the MAN OF SIN.. will do that.. he's coming with great charismatic power and peace.. but its false. you see the foreshadowing of him in the likes of many who stir the TV Airwaves or Radio airwaves today.. Robertson, Osteen, etc..... holding out an 'image'. of a man made christ.. God will Call Out His Elect from that stuff.. no part in it!

This is similar to a vision I can't get out of my head. The whole unholy scenario of the world, indeed, seems glommed together. This leads to a question. Can the Holy Spirit that leads into all truth be failing so many? Is God a failure? I heartily think not, with all my being, and this is a terrifying conclusion to come to, in terms of the prospects of many, which I don't at all like to contemplate. But there it is, and it is what it is.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.​

 

[Bowhunter2394]

This is similar to a vision I can't get out of my head. The whole unholy scenario of the world, indeed, seems glommed together. This leads to a question. Can the Holy Spirit that leads into all truth be failing so many? Is God a failure? I heartily think not, with all my being, and this is a terrifying conclusion to come to, in terms of the prospects of many, which I don't at all like to contemplate. But there it is, and it is what it is.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.​

the Holy Spirit doesnt fail. He will be here during Daniels 70th week. indeed.. He is the One bringing the LOST to those Preaching the Coming Kingdom from Heaven a Literal Return.. vs. the apostate bride which is being allowed to 'build heaven on earth'... as we near Daniels 70th week. you will see a falling away from a LITERAL RETURN of Christ from Heaven, or 'arguing about when this happens or when that happens' schism's. ye see that today.. when He comes for a Bride that is spotless, He will come like a thief in the night.. He will pull His own out away from the blossoming Harlot, separate them.. THESE Elect of God will be so repugnant to the tares-weeds that when they are GONE.. the tares weeds will almost breathe a sigh of relief, those troublemakers are gone they will say, phew.. now we can get on with what we were 'really called to do'. create Heaven on Earth.. you see the 'hiss from the Garden". oh yes.. that cannot Go Full blown until He comes for a Bride that is spotless and called Unto Him.. and He will. His Elect... you see the foreshadowing of the Great Apostasia as we get closer and closer to Daniels 70th week starting.. the man of sin CANNOT BE REVEALED to this world until He that Lets is removed.. and Daniels 70th week cannot start until the Signing of the 'apostate lead christ' bringing charismatic supernatural false peace to fleshly Israel and her enemies. Foreshadowing of the Great Apostasia is here, at some point He will Call His Own Home, His Elect, that are looking for His Glorious Appearing, upon that, there may be some time inbetween, but you will have the man of sin come on the scene, an apostate 'christian', and start dealing with fleshly Israel and Her enemies.. when that Treaty is signed, the timeline begins.. indeed.. Just prior to Harpazo, those who are Truly His.. WILL BE SO REPUGNANT TO THE WORLD AND THE FALSE CHURCH, that they will be glad when they are gone, it wont be multitudes that are sitting in 'pews sunday afternoon or satruday afternoon or wednesday evening..NOPE..by that time you will a majority of that population, the weeds-tares, the devil has sown, these doing the will of their father, which will be manifest 3.5 years into Daniels 70th week.. God's Combine, His ETernal Combine starts, when the man of sin, charismatic and apostate , Signs that 'false peace treaty with fleshly Israel and her enemies. this will be backed up with POWER , ALLOWABLE power the Father Grants so that His Word is fulfilled, many believing the lie and strong delusion sent their way. God is Coming for a spotless Bride, those who are His, these He has known since the Foundation of the World, He is ABLE TO CALL THEM OUT and Keep them.. Until He comes for them.. Daniels 70th week, a 7 year time frame God has Set Aside for Harvest, these inhabitants of the planet will be Tried' and it will come upon them like a 'steel trap' that is shut .. He is looking for those whose Lamps are full.. listen to what the Spirit Saith..

 

[Bowhunter2394]

the Lie mankind will take is that he/she can will BITE INTO. is that you can build heaven on earth without Heaven returning, ye become like God knowing Good and evil... ye have progresssed to be like 'little god's....this the same 'hiss ' that came out of the Garden waaayy back. its fruit tangible, backed up even with power signs and lying wonders, but false, those who Know Him.. will understand what their' gospel and Kingdom are all about' its false..

 

[JesusIsAll]

the Holy Spirit doesnt fail. He will be here during Daniels 70th week. indeed.. He is the One bringing the LOST to those Preaching the Coming Kingdom from Heaven a Literal Return.. vs. the apostate bride which is being allowed to 'build heaven on earth'... as we near Daniels 70th week. you will see a falling away from a LITERAL RETURN of Christ from Heaven, or 'arguing about when this happens or when that happens' schism's. ye see that today.. when He comes for a Bride that is spotless, He will come like a thief in the night.. He will pull His own out away from the blossoming Harlot, separate them.. THESE Elect of God will be so repugnant to the tares-weeds that when they are GONE.. the tares weeds will almost breathe a sigh of relief, those troublemakers are gone they will say, phew.. now we can get on with what we were 'really called to do'. create Heaven on Earth.. you see the 'hiss from the Garden". oh yes.. that cannot Go Full blown until He comes for a Bride that is spotless and called Unto Him.. and He will. His Elect... you see the foreshadowing of the Great Apostasia as we get closer and closer to Daniels 70th week starting.. the man of sin CANNOT BE REVEALED to this world until He that Lets is removed.. and Daniels 70th week cannot start until the Signing of the 'apostate lead christ' bringing charismatic supernatural false peace to fleshly Israel and her enemies. Foreshadowing of the Great Apostasia is here, at some point He will Call His Own Home, His Elect, that are looking for His Glorious Appearing, upon that, there may be some time inbetween, but you will have the man of sin come on the scene, an apostate 'christian', and start dealing with fleshly Israel and Her enemies.. when that Treaty is signed, the timeline begins.. indeed.. Just prior to Harpazo, those who are Truly His.. WILL BE SO REPUGNANT TO THE WORLD AND THE FALSE CHURCH, that they will be glad when they are gone, it wont be multitudes that are sitting in 'pews sunday afternoon or satruday afternoon or wednesday evening..NOPE..by that time you will a majority of that population, the weeds-tares, the devil has sown, these doing the will of their father, which will be manifest 3.5 years into Daniels 70th week.. God's Combine, His ETernal Combine starts, when the man of sin, charismatic and apostate , Signs that 'false peace treaty with fleshly Israel and her enemies. this will be backed up with POWER , ALLOWABLE power the Father Grants so that His Word is fulfilled, many believing the lie and strong delusion sent their way. God is Coming for a spotless Bride, those who are His, these He has known since the Foundation of the World, He is ABLE TO CALL THEM OUT and Keep them.. Until He comes for them.. Daniels 70th week, a 7 year time frame God has Set Aside for Harvest, these inhabitants of the planet will be Tried' and it will come upon them like a 'steel trap' that is shut .. He is looking for those whose Lamps are full.. listen to what the Spirit Saith..

There's hint of the Antichrist possibly being an apostate, not honoring the God of his fathers, but this could also be a Jew, as it would make him a prime candidate to hoodwink Israel. But this also has its problems, in that it would be divisive in the Muslim world, as would Christianity. But I most believe the Antichrist will be a Hitler, a closet Satanist (at first), his own god, more than anything a larger than life political animal, may not have any appearance of religion that divides mankind, this making a bit more sense to me.

 

[popeye]

This is similar to a vision I can't get out of my head. The whole unholy scenario of the world, indeed, seems glommed together. This leads to a question. Can the Holy Spirit that leads into all truth be failing so many? Is God a failure? I heartily think not, with all my being, and this is a terrifying conclusion to come to, in terms of the prospects of many, which I don't at all like to contemplate. But there it is, and it is what it is.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.​

As i was reading the latest posts on this thread I found myself wondering the same thing even before i read this comment.

The advent of Obama has proven the sheeples (christian foolks) aimless direction concerning discernment that should normally be a no brainer from heaven's perspective.This thread is a compassless spiritual Obamanemity

It is in fact perspective,the one from heaven,that is the only safety,for to some,the deception will be craftyer than the current mush that's fooling sheeple,but to anyone that is elder in the HS and God's simple guiding hand/light,it is in fact the same clanging off key "rap" ,masquerading as truth,that many of God's people have endured for years.

IOW Jesus and the HS are not impressed by anyone,but sanctuary and sanity (spiritually) ONLY come from them.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Daniels 70th Week, is characterized by the preaching of 2 different Gospels that are contrary to each other, the gospel to build heaven on earth, this utitilized by the global coroporate apostate bride that uses pharmaceutical behavior meds to deceive and seduce the masses into a 'christ like image'.. this done with force and power, that move will be backed up by supernatural false signs and wonders, THEN you have the Gospel of the Kingdom, preached by those Called to Preach the Gospel of the coming Kingdom, these chosen Jewish Males, and the Witness/prophecy of the 2 Witnesses who will come on the Scene as Daniels 70th week starts, living in and around Jersualem, and these 2 will prophesy against the Harlot the man of sin and the false prohpet, who will make Jerusalem the 'global commerce capital of the world' as they are given an open door to create heaven on earth..... builidng an apostate 'utopia' that will MIMIC the coming 1000 Literal Year Reign of Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh, as Foretold!... very dark times spiritually, and literally as the Seals are opened.. and God Himself begins to judge and try Mankind, that has abandoned Him and decided to do it on their own, with alittle help from the devil...lol, actually alot of help from him... Prior to Daniels 70th week.. very prosperous times on this planet, and even into the Start of Daniels 70th Week, as the Harlot proceeds to build its utopia... prosperous and busy. very busy, so trouble LOOMS when the Seals begin to be opened.. 'for when they say peace and Safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them'.. indeed... Oh Hes looking for those who are Looking for Him, You are STILL IN THE WORLD, Protected, and Kept, but He will come for you. those who hear His voice.. Understand!

 

[popeye]

There's hint of the Antichrist possibly being an apostate, not honoring the God of his fathers, but this could also be a Jew, as it would make him a prime candidate to hoodwink Israel. But this also has its problems, in that it would be divisive in the Muslim world, as would Christianity. But I most believe the Antichrist will be a Hitler, a closet Satanist (at first), his own god, more than anything a larger than life political animal, may not have any appearance of religion that divides mankind, this making a bit more sense to me.

He will most like be chamelean.

Is he a muslim?
Is he catholic?
Jewish"

"Oh,who cares,maybe he is just a deist,but we love him anyway.And that mark thinggy is just brilliant"

 

[JesusIsAll]

Would add this "flavor of the month" Muslim Antichrist theory is just stuffing the news into scripture, I believe just destined another 100% failed attempt in the track record of these things. as the Antichrist coming in as a world uniter, and being Muslim, is like the concept of the wolf coming to the flock in wolves' clothing. Islam is about as divisive as one can get, from a global perspective.

 

[JesusIsAll]

He will most like be chamelean.

Is he a muslim?
Is he catholic?
Jewish"

"Oh,who cares,maybe he is just a deist,but we love him anyway.And that mark thinggy is just brilliant"

Like most your concept of him being a "who cares"? Good show!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

There's hint of the Antichrist possibly being an apostate, not honoring the God of his fathers, but this could also be a Jew, as it would make him a prime candidate to hoodwink Israel. But this also has its problems, in that it would be divisive in the Muslim world, as would Christianity. But I most believe the Antichrist will be a Hitler, a closet Satanist (at first), his own god, more than anything a larger than life political animal, may not have any appearance of religion that divides mankind, this making a bit more sense to me.

the Man of sin will start out as the son of perdition....... who was the ONLY other person to be named that? Judas Iscariot, yep a disciple and follower of Jesus. but a devil'.. indeed.. He will start out as a disciple of christ , but 3/5 years in his true nature will be revealed, as he is murdered and then satanically brought back to life, the literal devil incarnate inhabiting his flesh/bone, upon that time he will break convenant with Israel, and demand world wide worship as 'god himself,' denouncing the 'God of Heaven'. and everything.. satan will get his chance to elevate himself up above the Eternal as he inhabits the man of sin, son of perdition, this his very cry when his Insurrection occured way back before time and dirt were created... but his time is short, only 3.5 years.. so he will try to get as much out of that as possible.. 'for he knows his time is short'. there is actually a literal warning FROM HEAVEN , upon that time when he is cast down to earth, unable to reach God and accuse His Own, 'woe unto the inhabitants of the Earth, for the devil has been cast down to you , and is in great rage, for he knoweth that his time is short'.. this happens 3.5 years into Daniels 70th week.. his denouncing of the God of Heaven, happens 3.5 years into Daniels 70th week.. those whose Names ARE NOT WRITTEN in the Lambs Book of life will continue on with him, taking his mark, worshipping him, trying build heaven on earth, but coming under the Judgment of God.. from seeing the error and deception on this board, I would say many on here will follow this charismatic apostate disciple of christ to perdition, Unless God Pulls them out, and He is the Only One who can open their eyes to the Truth, indeed! He already 'knows'. INdeed!

 

[popeye]

as they are given an open door to create heaven on earth..... builidng an apostate 'utopia' that will MIMIC the coming 1000 Literal Year Reign of Jesus the Christ, God manifest in the flesh, as Foretold!... very dark times spiritually, and literally as the Seals are opened.. and God Himself

I have been keeping an eye on NAR ,new apostolic reformation. I like several things about them,they are men of God,but they are also "kingdom now","manifest sons of God",with the ever present backdrop of "taking the world,and nations" for the kingdom,MEANING,WE ARE IN THE MIL.. (according to them).They believe things will get beter and better,as we the people of God move into our calling and annointing.

Well,guess what? Jesus was not political.

 

[popeye]

the Man of sin will start out as the son of perdition....... who was the ONLY other person to be named that? Judas Iscariot, yep a disciple and follower of Jesus. but a devil'.. indeed.. He will start out as a disciple of christ , but 3/5 years in his true nature will be revealed, as he is murdered and then satanically brought back to life, the literal devil incarnate inhabiting his flesh/bone, upon that time he will break convenant with Israel, and demand world wide worship as 'god himself,' denouncing the 'God of Heaven'. and everything.. satan will get his chance to elevate himself up above the Eternal as he inhabits the man of sin, son of perdition, this his very cry when his Insurrection occured way back before time and dirt were created... but his time is short, only 3.5 years.. so he will try to get as much out of that as possible.. 'for he knows his time is short'. there is actually a literal warning FROM HEAVEN , upon that time when he is cast down to earth, unable to reach God and accuse His Own, 'woe unto the inhabitants of the Earth, for the devil has been cast down to you , and is in great rage, for he knoweth that his time is short'.. this happens 3.5 years into Daniels 70th week.. his denouncing of the God of Heaven, happens 3.5 years into Daniels 70th week.. those whose Names ARE NOT WRITTEN in the Lambs Book of life will continue on with him, taking his mark, worshipping him, trying build heaven on earth, but coming under the Judgment of God.. from seeing the error and deception on this board, I would say many on here will follow this charismatic apostate disciple of christ to perdition, Unless God Pulls them out, and He is the Only One who can open their eyes to the Truth, indeed! He already 'knows'. INdeed!

I believe the bride is removed b 4 the Ac,or right at his debuet.
I also think a "black dread" will blanket this earth s most will know what has happened. Along with this sick feeling will comw LAWLESSNESS. Peace will be taken from the planet. Murder galore.
Churche will be filled,revival will be global,and awesome,and the AC will be empowered.
NUMERO UNO is the mark. This HAS TO BE.
Enter those refusing and incarcerated,later beheaded.

"Oh I am so glad me and my family did the right thing and took the mark. Just look at what happened to those stupid christians"

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Man in his carnal ways and interpretation of the Scripture fueled by satans power signs and lying wonder, will attempt to buid heaven on earth, he/she will hold out a gospel which has its IDENTITY and all those that follow it, grounded in apostasy, fueled by the use of pharmaceutical drugs to control behavior, thus creating an 'man made image of christ' a 'false identity produced by man.. if ye are His Your IDENTITY IN CHRIST is Grounded in the Blood of Christ, His work at the Tree, and Revealed to you thru His Word with the Aid of the Paraclete, thus your Identity in Him, is pure without spot, heresy and false teachings, and without the 'use behavior control' meds to make you conform, the HARLOT OF REV. 17 is going to be given great power to fulfill the Word of God. at that time. you either get on board with the utopian image or we will make you get on board, those who Refuse and reject that, will more than likely give their Lives in the coming Great Tribulation, as these will be converted to Christ Genuinely, thru the Preaching of the 144,000 Jewish males and the Testimony of the 2 Witnesses... SATAN COMES TO STEAL YOUR IDENTITY IN CHRIST, this done thru the use of pharmaceutical behavior meds, to create an image and to make you almost to the point you are robotical, the Word calls this Idolatry, and its Mans final rebellion against God as he/she replaces the Blood of Christ with a drug, that is used to image and conform and control the masses, God will JUDGE THIS.. and those who partake in its abominations! indeed!