Jesus killed the law causing enmity to cease

[Biblelogic01]

Spiritual man of GOD taught of 'All Scripture' are able to judge, in 'just' and 'fair' measure to 'unite' and not divide' and get rid the 'yeast' of the 'Pharisees'. And i am not against you, but you are against the written Holy Scripture 'FAITH' from the 'beginning', in your 'self' understanding, ignoring others who are in service and witnessing 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' on behalf of GOD's lambs and sheep. We are 'witnessing' that you continue witness anyway possible and trying to 'teach' others about the 'Torah'. Please look at the 'corrections' of our LORD in 'AGAPE' to you and others like you, rather looking at me as an unworthy 'instrument' for 'words/teachings of CHRIST', as it is written and 'firmly' witnessing to 'built up' those who 'believe' them in 'FAITH' being again 'reminded' and one's 'memory stirred up' for 'FAITH' determination. These are 'truly' and firmly' testified, for it is from the 'anointing' placed in me and even others, in order to serve you also and others who are also 'witnessing' as well.

Please examine your 'self' first in action witnessing the written Holy Scripture and it is not as it is written and therefore 'deviating' from 'Grace and Truth' of the written New Covenant, i truly say still as a 'truthful' friend who is concern of your 'spiritual welfare' that you are not yet 'conformed' to the 'sound doctrine' HOLY BIBLE 'spiritual faith' and 'witnessing' for CHRIST, the Kingdom of GOD, written in the 'foundation' of the HOLY BIBLE.

JESUS did 'judge' and 'condemn' the Pharisees of their 'wickedness', that all this while they were ignorantly 'practicing', in lack of 'truth understanding' like JESUS, in truly what GOD requires of the 'Torah' and you do not realize you are a 'repeat' acting like one, who are not 'rooted' well in the written Holy Scripture and fully taught by the HOLY SPIRIT, and rather 'witnessing' as it is written that we will 'recognize' and 'welcome' you. But 'boldly' you are continuing in your 'versions' and 'interpretations' of the HOLY BIBLE time and time again.

How many may the 'man of GOD' must continue to talk to you and force convince you, when you do not understand your ignorant 'behavior of incomplete faith' or to say fairly in 'initial faith' and 'without guilt and shame' still witnessing to others the same even 'quoting' other Holy Scripture in 'incomplete interpretation'.

Are we to remain 'dumb' and 'silent' and allow 'all' things to flow and watch the ending, of developed 'confusion' and further 'division' among us.

Even Joshua and Caleb did not give in to the other's 'witnessing' in 'little faith' in lack knowledge faith of their GOD and what HE has done and able to do, but stood 'firm' with Moses according to that knowledge, 'in faith and not by sight', which he has earlier 'imparted' to Israel at Mont Sinai and 'as it is written' for our 'FAITH' witnessing today.

i am not being 'hard' on you but am being 'Graceful' and 'truthful', according to 'as it is written' and that is the 'FAITH' in me and others who are 'witnessing firmly'.

If you still do not 'get it', i will stop continuing with you and let others do a better job than me towards you.

Thank you for 'putting up' with me and GOD bless you in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Um from what I've seen this is what happens.
I voice my understanding of scripture (I do not tell others they are right or wrong)
Then someone tells me that my understanding is wrong and I need to correct it because there is no salvation in what I do.
Yet when I state my POV of scripture I always make it clear that Yeshua is the only way to salvation. There is no other way to salvation.
Now there is a small misunderstanding I believe you may have on scripture.

Yeshua taught and rebuked the Pharisees because the Pharisees were, how do you say it, they "didn't practice what the preached." Which would make them hyprocrites. Yeshua didn't teach against them because they taught Torah, He taught against their hypocricy.

So I have read scripture, and I believe Yeshua was teaching/taught Torah. The biggest and main conclusion on that is, at that time the only scriptures were the Torah and the prophets. So based off of that there was nothing else Yeshua would have been teaching. Yeshua's ideas were not new and out of no where.

And I do see what you are saying as far as the judgement side of thing, but your judgement towards me (even though you think it is correct), it's wrong because it's based off of assumptions.

You're assuming I'm teaching people to follow Torah, it's not exactly that.
Like I said before, I follow Torah, and I will state my view point on scripture.
That does not mean I'm telling others they are wrong, or I'm better than them.
When someone tells me I'm wrong for following Torah, I defend my position on that.
If someone tells me the Torah is dead and gone, I will defend that.
If you want to look at me defending my position as teaching then go ahead.

But just look at it this way, what if you post something of your POV of scripture in what you've learned, and then someone tells you, "no no no, you can't do that".
Are you going to defend your postion, or are you going to just say ok?
Hopefully that makes sense.

Those are the situations I'm running into.

Thanks for keeping an eye on me though brother, much appreciated

 

[peacefulbeliever]

We all know these scriptures and that our Lord and Savior was in all of unchanging recorded scripture from the beginning. There are not 2 Messiahs or 2 Sons of God.

I didn't say there was.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." John 1:1-2 and 10

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;" Colossians 1:18-19

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30

Jesus is both the son af man, and the Son of God who made all things happen that are recorded in scripture.

If we deny the fact that Jesus was with Israel even at Mount Sinai we also have to deny that He is the same today and yesterday, and that the changing of the Priesthood was all within the plan of salvation from the beginning. Our Lord makes it all happen. Without the first still being relevant for today there can be no fulfillment by changing the foreshadow or saying Christ wasn't with Israel from the time of the Exodus.

Jesus Christ is the red thread woven throughout the word of God. The apostles did not even glean all that Jesus Christ "represented" throughout scripture or all that was "foreshadowed" concerning their Messiah.

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. . . And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he thei understanding that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:27, 44-47

OT looked at in the LIGHT of "all the things" that were written concerning him by foreshadows or types, just touching the surface:
Genesis, he is pictured as the seed of the woman, the promised seed;
Exodus, he is pictured as the Passover Lamb;
Leviticus, he is pictured as the High Priest;
Numbers, the one lifted on a pole who gives healing, the star to rise out of David;
Deut., the prophet from among his brothers, the two laws - Love God, love your neighbor;
Joshua, he is pictured as the captain of the Lord's host;
Judges, the stone that crushes the heads of his enemies;
Ruth, the kinsman redeemer;
Samuel, the root and offspring of David, the King declared by prophets and anointed with oil;
Kings, the true Temple where people meet God (the greater temple), the great miracle worker;
Chronicles, the King's Son, the child-king hidden and protected from his enemies;
Ezra, the rebuilder, the teacher well-versed in the Law of Moses;
Nehemiah, one who remembers us with favor;
Esther, the Savior of God's people, the gold scepter of mercy in the hand of God the King;
Job, the daysman, the mediator between God and man;
Psalm, the stone the builders rejected;
Proverbs, the wisdom of God, the Word fitly spoken,
Ecclesiastes, one among a thousand, that which gives life meaning,
Song of Solomon, the lover and our beloved, the bridegroom;
Isaiah, the son of the virgin, Jacob's branch;
Jeremiah, the source of living waters, our righteousness;
Lamentations, the unbelievers' judgment, the hope whose compassions are new every morning
Ezekiel, he is the one who gives life to dry bones, the true shepherd
Daniel, the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, the stone who became the head of the corner
Hosea, the latter rain, the faithful husband who buys back his unfaithful wife
Joel, he is the one who pours out the Lord's spirit on all people, God's dwelling in Zion
Amos, he is God's plumbline, making straight the crooked
Obadiah, he is the deliverance on Mt Zion
Jonah, he is the sign - three days and nights in the heart of the earth
Micah, he is the peace that causes all nations to beat their swords into plowblades
Nahum, he is God's refuge to the good and God's vengeance to the wicked
Habakkuk, he is the righteous one who lived by faith
Zephaniah, he is the one who will restore the fortunes of Judah
Haggai, he is the one desired of all nations
Zechariah, he is the smitten shepherd
Malachi - he is the "sun of righteousness", risen with healing in his wings

Wow . . . I forgot I had all these written at the beginning of each chapter!!!!

 

[fredjames]

Um from what I've seen this is what happens.
I voice my understanding of scripture (I do not tell others they are right or wrong)
Then someone tells me that my understanding is wrong and I need to correct it because there is no salvation in what I do.
Yet when I state my POV of scripture I always make it clear that Yeshua is the only way to salvation. There is no other way to salvation.
Now there is a small misunderstanding I believe you may have on scripture.

Yeshua taught and rebuked the Pharisees because the Pharisees were, how do you say it, they "didn't practice what the preached." Which would make them hyprocrites. Yeshua didn't teach against them because they taught Torah, He taught against their hypocricy.

So I have read scripture, and I believe Yeshua was teaching/taught Torah. The biggest and main conclusion on that is, at that time the only scriptures were the Torah and the prophets. So based off of that there was nothing else Yeshua would have been teaching. Yeshua's ideas were not new and out of no where.

And I do see what you are saying as far as the judgement side of thing, but your judgement towards me (even though you think it is correct), it's wrong because it's based off of assumptions.

You're assuming I'm teaching people to follow Torah, it's not exactly that.
Like I said before, I follow Torah, and I will state my view point on scripture.
That does not mean I'm telling others they are wrong, or I'm better than them.
When someone tells me I'm wrong for following Torah, I defend my position on that.
If someone tells me the Torah is dead and gone, I will defend that.
If you want to look at me defending my position as teaching then go ahead.

But just look at it this way, what if you post something of your POV of scripture in what you've learned, and then someone tells you, "no no no, you can't do that".
Are you going to defend your postion, or are you going to just say ok?
Hopefully that makes sense.

Those are the situations I'm running into.

Thanks for keeping an eye on me though brother, much appreciated

The 'eyes' of the LORD JESUS CHRIST of the written HOLY BIBLE is upon all of us, in whatever 'level' in Kingdom Spiritual Knowledge 'FAITH' we are. And 'learn' and 'practice', like the 'father of faith' Abraham who 'did' according to 'every Word' of GOD he 'received' during his 'time' here on earth, 'rooted' to them only, not turning to the 'left' or 'right' to 'please' others who 'opposed' him in 'logic'.

In 'logic', he should not have to 'sacrificed' his own son, given by GOD Himself in the first place. Initially this were the 'pagan' practice to their 'gods', in the surroundings of his 'faith' to the 'voice' of GOD.

While the 'pagan' gods allowed all the 'baby' sacrifice that they did 'faithful' to them, but Abraham's GOD 'stopped' him, pleased with his 'faithfulness' upon testing/tried him.

Today with CHRIST, do we have such?

But we are 'struggling' and 'ever learning', and never 'understood' to come to 'practice' the written New Covenant, with one another and the lost.

We are here like ever 'children' and 'debating' with one another, longing to 'witness' who 'falls' and 'who is still here'. And who is already 'banned' and a person is 'fit' to be 'banned'?

And so 'good riddance' of a 'troll'?

In the first place, in the HOLY BIBLE, where is it written the 'word of GOD' saying 'troll'?

Or rather 'highlighting' the written 'facts' of the HOLY BIBLE, and calling even a 'babes in CHRIST', to stop as men labelled 'troll', and in 'FAITH', to rather call them to 'Repent' instead and treat them as 'outsiders' for the moment until they come to their 'spiritual' senses of their 'taught' HOLY BIBLE knowledge in the first place in their 'beginning', like us also before?

All the 'ignorant' judging has been made in this 'Forum' and 'continuing', but still use the Holy Scripture to defend and excuse one 'self' to right all a along.

'Surprisingly' these 'trolls' whom we have 'rejected', even we have longingly 'banned', would have 'repented' and be with CHRIST on 'judgement day' condemning us as 'lawlessness' with CHRIST, as they are only speaking the 'truth' in front of CHRIST.

'Wake up' and 'be alert', there is a lot of 'deception' happening here, and due to our own lack, we are allowing them to 'continue' and not 'straightened' them, according to the written Holy Scripture 'FAITH' in 'action' in 'AGAPE' like Abraham.

He did not 'ban' anyone but proclaimed a fair judgement with his 'household' being beside him, and in 'ignorance' what have been said for 'peace', for that person to either 'leave' or 'stay on' and 'learn', on his own accord to remain 'faithful'.

Even in 'faith' to the 'Word of GOD' who have called him, from his 'comfort zone' and things 'visible' were not going well for him, he did not forget 'Lot'. Still 'rescued' him who 'continued' to be on his own, and later pleaded for to the 'LORD', and 'Lot and his family', were brought to a 'safe' place by the 'angel of the LORD' and the rest were 'punished' accordingly to the will of GOD.

Learn 'first' true 'faith' before being 'clever' to teach one another.

The 'Word' of the LORD JESUS CHRIST has 'spoken', therefore 'repent' to HIM and 'learn', Grace and Truth 'AGAPE' first.

As it is written;

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of GOD and HIS righteousness, ........................................................."

 

[just-me]

Peacefulbeliever
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for *my name is in him. Exodus 23:21

Angels are messengers. They hear what God says, and then deliver His message. I read of no angels actually having God's name other than Jesus Christ.

Jesus talked to Moses from the burning bush and He is first mentioned as an angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 and 14-15
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
14 And God said unto Moses,I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus led the Children of Israel into the promised land. It's obvious because no other has the perfect power to conquer the enemy such as our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee," "for my *name is in him." Exodus 23:20a-21b

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." John 10:25

 

[Elin]

Now you are changing the subject, from a requirement of Christ to teach the law,
to what Christ chose to teach of the law.

I'm stating He taught the Torah, you're saying He didn't teach the Torah.

That's what the discussion is on, whether He taught it or not.

Now, you're changing it yet again. . .from he taught all the law, to whether he taught any of the law or not.

And all have been addressed.

If He did not teach Torah, then all of His teachings were new, and were not based off of anything.
This would not be true, because there are times where He states "in the law of Moses, or in the Law"
If Yeshua is stating stuff like this, He is teaching Torah.
Where do the 2 greatest commandments come from?
The Torah.
Yeshua didn't just think of something new.
He reffered back to Torah, therefor teaching it.

This has been addressed.

It seems now might be a good time for a fuller presentation of a couple of things.

1) Christ came to fulfill the law.
His contrast is between "fulfill" and "abolish," not between "part" and "all."
He did not say "all" the law. You are focusing on a non-textual contrast.

a) He fulfilled the law by obeying its commands which applied to him--honoring his parents,
setting apart the Sabbath, praying, giving alms, etc., and he obeyed it perfectly, never ever
breaking the law in anything;

b) he fulfilled the law by fulfilling the promises of the law and the predictions of the prophets,
which bore witness to him;

c) he fulfilled the ceremonial law and showed himself to be the reality of its shadows;

d) he improved the law with his additions to and explanations of it;

e) he established the law as subordinate to grace--as the means of sanctification,
not the means of salvation. Salvation from God's wrath on the guilt of sin was through belief in him
(Jn 3:18, 36).

2) Jesus was not a priest in the Levitical order of Aaron
and was not subject to the laws for the Levitical priesthood.
And it was the Levitical priests, not the High Priest, who were charged with teaching the law.

Jesus was a priest--not by descent from a priestly line, but by the power of an endless life--in the order
of Melchizedek. He is the new eternal High Priest of that order, who offered the once-for-all atoning sacrifice, which was himself.

The priesthood was forever changed to the order of Melchizedek when its new eternal High Priest offered the once-for-all atoning sacrifice on the cross.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Peacefulbeliever
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for *my name is in him. Exodus 23:21

Angels are messengers. They hear what God says, and then deliver His message. I read of no angels actually having God's name other than Jesus Christ.

Jesus talked to Moses from the burning bush and He is first mentioned as an angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 and 14-15
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
14 And God said unto Moses,I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus led the Children of Israel into the promised land. It's obvious because no other has the perfect power to conquer the enemy such as our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee," "for my *name is in him." Exodus 23:20a-21b

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." John 10:25

(Divine Agents) Agent: The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, " a person's agent is regarded as the person himself". Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent. The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion

The Bible has a number of instances where an agent of God is referred to as "God" or "the Lord" Himself and in many of these cases the agent (usually an angel) actually speaks and acts in God's stead. In today's time the best example is in a power of attorney - where the agent speaks and acts just as if he were the principle. The "angel of the LORD" or the "angel of God" speaks and acts for God sometimes even identifying himself as God because that is who he is speaking for. "My name is in him" is such a custom of agency - the word "name" stood for "authority" - God said that he sent an angel before thee and "my name is in him" meaning I have sent an angel before thee and he speaks and acts with my authority. God told the Israelites to obey the angel because God's name, i.e., His authority, was in him, and thus the angel represented God.

Maybe I have a tendency to take God to mean what he says when he uses specific words and I try my best not to read anything into scripture that isn't there and written plainly - so when he says "angel" - to me he means angel. You have your understanding and this is just my understanding . . .

 

[Elin]

How was what I said not according to the word of God?

Israel's righteousness came through obedience before God. Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Did they achieve righteousness in this manner? Nope . . . reason for the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So those born again, the church of God, the body of Christ are made righteous through faith in Jesus Christ . . . But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. Romans 3

Agreed. . . .

 

[Biblelogic01]

Peacefulbeliever
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for *my name is in him. Exodus 23:21

Angels are messengers. They hear what God says, and then deliver His message. I read of no angels actually having God's name other than Jesus Christ.

Jesus talked to Moses from the burning bush and He is first mentioned as an angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 and 14-15
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
14 And God said unto Moses,I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus led the Children of Israel into the promised land. It's obvious because no other has the perfect power to conquer the enemy such as our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee," "for my *name is in him." Exodus 23:20a-21b

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." John 10:25

Well technically God's name is in every angle from my understanding.
One of God's names is Adonai Elohim

Look at every angles proper name: Micha'el, Gabri'el, Uri'el, etc.
Every single angle has an "'el" at the end of their name.
Even the fallen ones. I will not speak/type their names.
Read the book of Enoch and that will tell you the names of all the archangels and the fallen ones as well.
And all their names end with 'el.

Yeshua is also reffered to as Emanu'el, God is with us. So I believe that could be the reference of God being in His name.

 

[Least]

(Divine Agents) Agent: The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, " a person's agent is regarded as the person himself". Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent. The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion

The Bible has a number of instances where an agent of God is referred to as "God" or "the Lord" Himself and in many of these cases the agent (usually an angel) actually speaks and acts in God's stead. In today's time the best example is in a power of attorney - where the agent speaks and acts just as if he were the principle. The "angel of the LORD" or the "angel of God" speaks and acts for God sometimes even identifying himself as God because that is who he is speaking for. "My name is in him" is such a custom of agency - the word "name" stood for "authority" - God said that he sent an angel before thee and "my name is in him" meaning I have sent an angel before thee and he speaks and acts with my authority. God told the Israelites to obey the angel because God's name, i.e., His authority, was in him, and thus the angel represented God.

Maybe I have a tendency to take God to mean what he says when he uses specific words and I try my best not to read anything into scripture that isn't there and written plainly - so when he says "angel" - to me he means angel. You have your understanding and this is just my understanding . . .

That is interesting Peacefulbeliever,

I personally have not come across instances where an "agent of God is referred to as "God, Himself" or the Lord Himself, other than Christ Jesus.

Although God did make Moses His representative, Moses never once referred to himself as a god. Notice that is uses a lowercase "g." In Psalm 82, Israel as a nation is referred to as a "god," again..a representative..and they were not pleasing to God as the passage shows.

Exodus 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Moses was a representative, but he was not God...He was a spokes person. He did do and say exactly what God told him to, and only by direction from God.

In the case of the the "rock," as Paul refers to Jesus in 1 Cor 10:4, that followed them, and that rock was Jesus.

Jesus was with the Hebrew people in the wilderness.

When Aaron and Miriam rose up against Moses, God called them together and said this.

Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
Numbers 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (KJV)

Numbers 12:8 I speak with him face to face, plainly and not in riddles.He even sees the form of the LORD. Why weren't you afraid to criticize my servant Moses?"

From Strong's, the word, "similitude," from 04327 ; TWOT - 1191b; n f

AV - likeness 5, similitude 4, image 1; 10

1) form, image, likeness, representation, semblance

Moses speaks of this again, as the people themselves did not see the Lord as Moses did.

Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

Just some references for consideration.

I also wanted to make the point, that the angel in Rev did not allow John to bow, but told him that he was his fellow servant, to worship God.

And any written of who did try to "steal" the glory from God...it didn't fare well for them. (Harod is a good example of this.)

God has always used representatives, but it was never for their glory.

 

[Elin]

My view points do align with scripture. If you read back at my earlier posts everything I've stated aligns with scripture. I think where the view points differ is when I look at the scriptures I'm looking at it that Yeshua and God are one. Yeshua was there at the beginning of creation (John 1, in Geniuses, and Deuteronomy 6). I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. I believe that God gave His people the Torah at Mt Sinai, I also believe that
the Torah is a everlasting covenant between God and His people, in Genesis 17 God told Abraham that His covenant with him and all his descendants is an everlasting covenant.

The law is not part of the Abrahamic covenant.

It is the basis of the Mosaic (Sinaitic) covenant.

I believe that God's people are Israel, because God changed Jacob's name to Israel and that's what He called His people at Mt Sinai. I believe when someone comes to salvation they are graphed into Israel (there is multiple scriptures on this in the new testament). Now throughout Torah it states in a few places that it's suppose to be observed through all generations. Now to me, and a lot of people disagree with this, but through all generations means through all generations, it does not mean through all generations up until the cross. I'm pretty sure
if God meant it to end at the cross, I'm pretty sure He would have told Moses this.

Your logic is not Biblical. . .

Did he tell Moses he would end the Levitical priesthood at the cross?

Did he tell Moses he would end the sacrifices at the cross?

Did he tell Moses he would make the Sinaitic covenant obsolete at the cross?

Not "telling Moses" is a prognosticator of nothing.

A little less human logic and a little more Biblical thinking is in order.

Now after the fall of Israel this is where I believe scripture need to be studied very well and it's in the prophets and what they prophesied. After Israel split into north and south from what it is stated in the OT
the northern kingdom completely abandoned Torah and God's ways and they were spread amongst the nations, they were scattered all over the earth, they were and in a way still are blind to the Torah and the ways of God. Now
the southern kingdom ended up either coming back to Torah or kept it, I'd have to double check it. Anyway, they
kept Torah,

Both kingdoms, Israel and Judah, were exiled for unfaithfulness to the Sinaitic covenant.

but eventually their pride in it blinded a lot of the religious leaders when Yeshua came. Now it is prophesied that
God would return and gather His sheep. His sheep are
the children of Israel, both kingdoms.

Your logic is not Biblical. . .

Because they are one, God's sheep and Jesus' sheep are the same sheep; i.e., those who believe in the Promise (i.e., Jesus Christ).

It's stated throughout the prophets, and
Yeshua states He is the good shepherd and He states
He's gathering 2 flocks (this is reference to
the lost tribes [northern kingdom] and Judah [southern kingdom]).

Your logic is not Biblical. . .

The two flocks of Jesus in the NT are the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles.

Now also throughout the prophets it
God doesn't only rebuke Israel, but also
comforts Israel and says He'll bring them back to His ways. Now that I've pointed that out (and there is scripture to back all of that up).

Which is exactly what he did in the return from exile in Babylon.

Now we get into where my view probably differs from yours and others. Now Torah again is a covenant between God and His people. According to Torah when there is adultery someone must be a sin offering. Israel was in a covenant with God and was an adulterer by breaking away from His covenant. So God sent Himself as Yeshua to pay the price to cover that. From my understanding this is what it means He died for our sins, to give us a clean slate and come back into a covenant with Him, but this time instead of stone tablets He wrote it in our mind and on our hearts and He gave us access to the Spirit so we can be guided in our walk in His covenant.
So based off of this God did not change His covenant,

Your logic is not Biblical. . .

God said he changed the covenant (Jer 31:32).

He changed us because now His covenant is within us.

Paul says the Torah makes us aware of sin, he doesn't say following Torah is sin. Paul even calls the Torah holy just and good.
The apostle John says sin is transgression of Torah.
King David, a man after God's heart said, "But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night."

So even though these are a few examples how can following Torah be wrong in any way?

Much of the law--Levitical priesthood, Sinaitic covenant, sacrifices, etc.--has been set aside (Heb 7:18-19)
because it was only a shadow of the reality we have in Christ.
In the new covenant, we walk in the life, light, grace and truth (Jn 1:4,17) of the reality in Christ,
not in their shadows.

This is my point of view based off of scripture. So please tell me where I'm wrong.

See the above.

Don't understand why anyone would prefer the shadow of a person to the person himself,
or why anyone would need a shadow image when the person is right there with them.

 

[fredjames]

Peacefulbeliever
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for *my name is in him. Exodus 23:21

Angels are messengers. They hear what God says, and then deliver His message. I read of no angels actually having God's name other than Jesus Christ.

Jesus talked to Moses from the burning bush and He is first mentioned as an angel.

Exodus 3:2-6 and 14-15
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
14 And God said unto Moses,I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus led the Children of Israel into the promised land. It's obvious because no other has the perfect power to conquer the enemy such as our Lord Jesus Christ.

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee," "for my *name is in him." Exodus 23:20a-21b

"Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." John 10:25

'Angels', according to the written 'Holy Scripture' in the book of 'Hebrews', 'are all called by GOD as ministering spirits', also according to the 'written' Gospel, Epistles and Revelation, laborers of 'Salvation'.

 

[fredjames]

'Angels', according to the written 'Holy Scripture' in the book of 'Hebrews', 'are all called by GOD as ministering spirits', also according to the 'written' Gospel, Epistles and Revelation, laborers of 'Salvation'.

If you want to 'learn', we are at your 'service' as 'unworthy servants', for in whatever 'level' faith you are, we will continue with you, if you want to learn first, rather than 'teach' others, who are also 'learning'.

 

[Least]

From Strong's

aggelos: an angel, messenger
​

Original Word: ἄγγελος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aggelos
Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)
Short Definition: an angel, messenger
Definition: a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.

Although, ordinary people were also called, "messengers," Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah and many others.

 

[fredjames]

If you want to 'learn', we are at your 'service' as 'unworthy servants', for in whatever 'level' faith you are, we will continue with you, if you want to learn first, rather than 'teach' others, who are also 'learning'.

You are highly 'favored' and 'acknowledged' as 'saved' in Heaven, and we are not allowed to please 'itching ears' for it is already 'written' and 'taught' by the 'Helper', the HOLY SPIRIT, who is 'representing' CHRIST of the New Covenant.

 

[Elin]

"Blind" grace? Where is that in the Bible?

Misrepresentation of the NT. . ."Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

The bliss of blind grace is not in the Word,

Agreed. . .neither the term nor the concept is found in Scripture.

but it is practiced and preached by many who misrepresent the Word, as you accuse.

As misrepresenting the Word is concerned, that term is not in the Word,

Agreed. . .but the NT is covered over in that very concept as Paul battles false doctrine.

but it too is practiced and preached by many. Please. do not search for any words at all to be clever and retort to those who are honestly attempting to build the Body of Christ, Yeshua.

Are you sure others are not doing the same?

If you do not love me or others who are not exactly as you, at least
allow them to continue in their Way given them by Christ.

If it is not in agreement with all of the NT, it is not given by Christ, because he does not contradict himself in the words spoken by him in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

You see we do try our best to be as He;

Are not others also doing the same in their way given them by Christ?

even those who lean more on Paul, though they have more difficulty.

And you know this, how?

I'm thinking those who ignore any of Paul's writings are the one's missing out on the word of God.
That definitely creates difficulty in understanding God's word according to the whole counsel of God,
rather than according to a truncated version of it.

Now, back in the box for a while until your posts look more like edification and fellowship.

Good idea. . .

 

[Elin]

Matthew 7:23 says, And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. In this verse the people thought they was doing enough, but they still worked iniquity.

Yes, because of counterfeit faith they continued in their sin.

 

[Elin]

That's it. You described very well that the Torah has never changed or has never been done away with in Christ Jesus. God sent His only begotten Son Messiah to change our perspectives so we could understand the Spiritual concepts of the Torah/law as it was meant to be understood from the beginning at Sinai.

If we demand that the New Covenant is absent of the Torah, we are not part of the true New Covenant in Christ Jesus because our doctrine is "lawless" (without law) and then the law will continuously point out our transgressions of disobedience when we observe it. That's why false doctrines of fictitious salvation such as this preach turning our backs on the law the exact way ancient Israel did. The degradation of The United States is in our face day in and day out. The churches that have preached this "lawlessness" (using Jesus and the grace of God as an excuse) have paved the way for our country's degradation. We have made more laws according to the human perspective than God ever gave to Israel. Jesus never changed His Father's will concerning the Torah. Jesus came to rightly interpret the Torah in Spirit for those who truly believe could properly understand it the way God originally intended all along.

Concerning adultery and looking on a woman with lust I present this scripture that shows us to fight against the temptation leading to an adulterous act.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:14-15

The Torah is meant to instruct believers for the purpose of preventing sin from taking a predominant role in our lives. If a person that desires to kill another person knows they will also be put to death (according to the original Torah) that thought can, and usually will keep the potential murderer from following through. By the way, all murderers are insane whether temporarily or permanently.

"And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." Deuteronomy 21:21

Yes, Jesus established the Decalogue as subordinate to grace, as the means of sanctification, not the means of salvation from the wrath of God on the guilt of our sin, which is through belief in him
(Jn 3:18, 36).

 

[Elin]

When we walk with the Lord, In the light of His Word
What a glory He sheds on our way
When we do His good will, He abides with us still
and with all who will trust and obey.

Trust and obey for there's no other way
To be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey.....

Then in fellowship sweet, we will sit at his feet,
Or we'll walk by his side in the way;

What he says we will do, where he sends, we will go,
Never fear, only trust and obey.

Trust and obey for there's no other way,
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

 

[just-me]

(Divine Agents) Agent: The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, " a person's agent is regarded as the person himself". Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent. The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion

The Bible has a number of instances where an agent of God is referred to as "God" or "the Lord" Himself and in many of these cases the agent (usually an angel) actually speaks and acts in God's stead. In today's time the best example is in a power of attorney - where the agent speaks and acts just as if he were the principle. The "angel of the LORD" or the "angel of God" speaks and acts for God sometimes even identifying himself as God because that is who he is speaking for. "My name is in him" is such a custom of agency - the word "name" stood for "authority" - God said that he sent an angel before thee and "my name is in him" meaning I have sent an angel before thee and he speaks and acts with my authority. God told the Israelites to obey the angel because God's name, i.e., His authority, was in him, and thus the angel represented God.

Maybe I have a tendency to take God to mean what he says when he uses specific words and I try my best not to read anything into scripture that isn't there and written plainly - so when he says "angel" - to me he means angel. You have your understanding and this is just my understanding . . .

Elohim is a Hebrew word meaning plural of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We are created in their image. Genesis 1:26a (CJB)"Then God said, “Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves;"

The entire point I present boils down to this. Jesus is the creator of all things, therefore He is also the engineer of all things before creation. He created principalities also which are not recognized as only physical but involves heart, mind, and soul. Jesus then is the founder of all things written in the Old Testament and the New Testament, because He is the Word. If they do not agree 100% with each other, we have a misinterpretation of scripture. We are misled of we think there is a different Word between the two. There is an old and new covenant. There is an old and new temple. There is an old and new priesthood, but that doesn't change what was given for our learning. Without the Spirit of God in us, we will have no desire to see this truth in comparing the new with the old rather than saying part of God's Word has been made void. That's why the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be in subjection to the law, and rightly divide the Word of truth. If Jesus is the same today as He was yesterday, (yesterday meaning the old testament, and old covenant) that means ALL of His Words spoken are currently true for us today. Take it or leave it. He made us to chose Him or reject Him. Don't take the Lord's name in vain. GBU

"Adonai Elohim, you have begun to reveal your greatness to your servant, and your strong hand — for what other god is there in heaven or on earth that can do the works and mighty deeds that you do?" Deuteronomy 3:24

 

[just-me]

'Angels', according to the written 'Holy Scripture' in the book of 'Hebrews', 'are all called by GOD as ministering spirits', also according to the 'written' Gospel, Epistles and Revelation, laborers of 'Salvation'.

If you want to 'learn', we are at your 'service' as 'unworthy servants', for in whatever 'level' faith you are, we will continue with you, if you want to learn first, rather than 'teach' others, who are also 'learning'.

Read again for the terms used in scripture

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush:
Then verse 6 says I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham,

The angel is God. In your opinion is this God Almighty minus Christ?