the Work of God

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Apr 9, 2015
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#41
Would you mind explaining some verses for us Bowhunter? To better understand what you are teaching
the VERSES I used Enoch, and EXPLAINED -----> purdy much sum up what I have taught, seems to me there are people WHO UNDERSTAND it and 'KNOW' OR discern what is being discussed... 2 or more are in agreement.. Only a couple on this thread who are 'hard of hearing'..... to me you sound like a Pharisee who is standing there, trying to figure out What Jesus is talking about when He says a Person must be born again to see or enter the Kingdom of Heaven... I do have one verse for you to explain why 'some are hard of hearing'.. its taken from John, when Jesus was rebuking the Religious elite of His day.. cause of their Unbelief, here it is.. go read John 8...that purdy much sums up the 'unbelief' that is found here and in this present world...

Why do ye not understand My Speech? even because ye cannot hear My Word. John 8
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#42
Majority of those who cannot Comprehend God's Sovereign Will or Plan or His Sovereign control over all Creation, the Righteous and the un righteous, those who don't understand this nor His choosing, His Election according to His Grace, these are more than likely 'bound by a works' salvation.. deceived and minds blinded by the prince of the power of the Air... so subtle he is.. playing off your pride, your intelligence, your abilities.. etc.. lol.. thats what MAKES GOD'S ELECTION Unique.. they are Grounded In Him and His son's Work at the tree.. when Christ Said it was 'finished'.. satan's demise was there.. because He had accomplished it.. Simplicity, Christ Crucified, God's Way.. thats what makes the Preaching of Christ Crucified, the Power and Wisdom of God.. foolishness to so many. even on here.. I'll be honest.. many on here.. are enemies of the Cross of Christ.. they truly are.. they are man driven, mad made, and repugnant and set against the Simplicity in Christ Crucified. May God show mercy to those who are really trying to Understand the reality of the Simplicity in Christ, draw them in an deliver them from a works centered man centered salvation to a God Centered Salvation.. and He will.. I trust Him to do that.. others who continue to spur the Grace and Mercy of God, puffed up in their carnal minds, measuring themselves by themselves, may God have mercy too.. in Wrath show Mercy.. indeed!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
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#43
Yes God is 100% sovereign yet in a way that leaves intact man 100% responsible for his wrong decisions.
As in Cain did not have 'free will' being fallen, yet he was still 100% culpable for his brother's death.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#44
Yes God is 100% sovereign yet in a way that leaves intact man 100% responsible for his wrong decisions.
As in Cain did not have 'free will' being fallen, yet he was still 100% culpable for his brother's death.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one.

I'll let you know when I fully understand it... lol
 
B

BradC

Guest
#45
God made man upright with freewill to be able to choose for himself without God having to force men to believe or not.

If God must "enable" man to believe before man can believe then God becomes morally culpable for all the unbelievers for His failure to enable them. Mt 8:26 Jesus said "ye of little faith". If God must enable men to believe before they can believe then Christ should have directed His criticism to God for God's failure to enable those disciples with sufficient faith they needed.

Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing can be reading ink on paper and understanding what was written cf Eph 3:3,4.
God draws men unto himself when the Son is lifted up (John 12:32). There is a 'drawing influence' through the goodness of God (Rom 2:4) that brings the lost soul to that place of repentance where they can be found. God is not willing that any man remain lost and perish, but that all men might come to that place of repentance and believe upon the Son.

SeaBass, when the gospel is heard by any soul who is lost, that is God drawing them to his Son. They may not respond or believe at that point, but God is drawing them. They may come under tremendous conviction and that is God drawing them. They might have a hundred questions about what is happening to them in this life and remain in unbelief and cry out to God and He hears them (Rom 10:13, Psalm 145:17-19). When God hears their cry he answers and does so swiftly (Is 58:8-14). God is after the heart. There is none righteous, none that understands, none that doeth good or seeketh after God (Rom 3:10-12) until God goes after the heart.

When the heart is pricked by the goodness of God, many are called but few humble themselves in the sight of God in the midst of that calling and get saved. God may come back a second and third time and go after their heart again to bring them to that place of repentance, but they may reject that calling over and over even though God is not willing and never has been willing that they should perish. Some respond to that calling and believe in their heart unto righteousness and others continue in what is righteousness and seems right in their own eyes and they are responsible for what they believe in their heart.

1 Thes 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Here is the other side of God's justice when men refuse the goodness of God's counsel.

Prov 1:22-33

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.





 
Mar 12, 2014
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#46
Paul answers that same question with saying,
you will say, who then can stand'.
and then he says,
oh man, who are you to question God's choosing'...

another words,
God will do what He will,
create what He will,
choose who He will,
elect who He will,
show mercy to whom He will,
and
show wrath to whom He will.

He does not answer or justify Himself to any man.

I accept His will and His omnipotence, His wisdom,
and His decisions and His judgments.
I certainly do not understand them all but I know
that He is wise, good, and over-flowing with Eternal Love
I'm not questioning God but I question a theology of man that has God choosing randomly for it is unable to give a basis as to why God has mercy upon some and not others. Even though a basis is not explicitly give in Rom 9:15 does not mean God acts randomly or that a basis is not given in other contexts.

The quotation of Paul in Rom 9:19 is directed at the Jews that were questioning the justness, righteousness of God for cutting them off from being His chosen people, (Rom 11:15ff) and grafting in the Gentiles. God casting off His once elect people the Jews and grafting in as His elect the once non-elect Gentiles goes against what Calvinistic election says.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#47
Why does God choose some individuals over others? Not sure.. why and What He used to make those decisions, not sure... WHO ARE WE to Question God? about His Decisions? out of pride and rebellion? mmmmm those He has chosen and revealed their Election to them, they all have one thing in Common, that Salvation, came thru the Bloody Tree, by the One who Gave Himself there for them, He will reveal that to them, the Man Christ Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, He who has been made a quickening Spirit.... Im not going to question God as to why He chose me? IM JUST SO VERY THANKFUL today He did.. and it NOT BASED ON my merits, or Him looking thru time to 'see if I would choose Him' , I wouldnt of , because of How Rebellious I was at that time... it was Based On God's plan, and I will TRUST in that. not man, nor his/her wisdom, nor what 'he/she thinks I should be doing according to man made religion and one of the many jesus's they hold out there 'i could fit into because of my dna or genes chromosomes'.. lolz.. Salvation is all about God, His Merits, His Mercy, His Calling, His Redemption, His Righteousness, His Sanctification, His Glorification... Its all about Him, those clay vessels He chooses to Show Mercy on. Understand this as they see a world that is dark, lost, and on the broad path to destruction according to God's Holy Character ... indeed!
You say "not sure" creating a gaping hole in your theology that you are unable to explain.

Why would God have mercy upon the king of Nineveh (Jonah 3:10) and not upon another king, Pharaoh in Exodus?

Jer 18:8,10.

---------------

2 Tim 2:21 "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

I see no randomness or unexplainable reason here as to why a man can be a vessel of honor.
 
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Mar 12, 2014
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#48

no?

ever read Isaiah chapter 6 ?


He said, “Go and tell this people:
“ ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed. ”

what's that all about then?


People close their own eyes and ears, Mt 13:15, and God allows/permits them to and since God's will allowed it to happen God is said to cause it to happen, a common Hebraic idiom.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#50
Yes God is 100% sovereign yet in a way that leaves intact man 100% responsible for his wrong decisions.
As in Cain did not have 'free will' being fallen, yet he was still 100% culpable for his brother's death.
How can God be 100% in control of what happens, men have 0% control yet men are to be blamed for what happens?

If Cain had no freewill then he was caused by God to kill Abel, God then is culpable for Abel's murder.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#51
God draws men unto himself when the Son is lifted up (John 12:32). There is a 'drawing influence' through the goodness of God (Rom 2:4) that brings the lost soul to that place of repentance where they can be found. God is not willing that any man remain lost and perish, but that all men might come to that place of repentance and believe upon the Son.

SeaBass, when the gospel is heard by any soul who is lost, that is God drawing them to his Son. They may not respond or believe at that point, but God is drawing them. They may come under tremendous conviction and that is God drawing them. They might have a hundred questions about what is happening to them in this life and remain in unbelief and cry out to God and He hears them (Rom 10:13, Psalm 145:17-19). When God hears their cry he answers and does so swiftly (Is 58:8-14). God is after the heart. There is none righteous, none that understands, none that doeth good or seeketh after God (Rom 3:10-12) until God goes after the heart.

When the heart is pricked by the goodness of God, many are called but few humble themselves in the sight of God in the midst of that calling and get saved. God may come back a second and third time and go after their heart again to bring them to that place of repentance, but they may reject that calling over and over even though God is not willing and never has been willing that they should perish. Some respond to that calling and believe in their heart unto righteousness and others continue in what is righteousness and seems right in their own eyes and they are responsible for what they believe in their heart.

1 Thes 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Here is the other side of God's justice when men refuse the goodness of God's counsel.

Prov 1:22-33

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.





Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.



God draws men by His word when men are taught hear and learn then men come. It is not some mystical, irresistible drawing.

The verse ends with "cometh unto Me" they come to God of their own freewill having been drawn by the word of God.

God draws, men come
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#52
How can God be 100% in control of what happens, men have 0% control yet men are to be blamed for what happens?

If Cain had no freewill then he was caused by God to kill Abel, God then is culpable for Abel's murder.
You are obviously in the same boat as I. Yet on the opposite end.
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#53
How can God be 100% in control of what happens, men have 0% control yet men are to be blamed for what happens?

If Cain had no freewill then he was caused by God to kill Abel, God then is culpable for Abel's murder.

Sea Bass, you are a PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE AL HAIG'S of supposed Christianity! pull God down to your level, tell Him how to act, even use His Word to tell Him how to Act but distorting it then......shake your fist at Him, question Him... then when pride and presumptuousness reaches a boiling point, you step up the podium and tell God , IM IN CONTROL HERE! .. the subtle voice of the serpent.. as he tries to ursurp God's Sovereignty by playing off his pride emotions abilities, one Led of the Spirit sees the subtle work of the serpent.. oh indeed! God is same today as He was yesterday and will be Forever! SALVATION, the Merits of It, its Decree, Its Foundation, Its Truths are all found and Grounded in God's Righteousness, the Gift of Righteousnes, the One Who Gave Himself on the tree, and Crucified before Time and Dirt Were Created! Thats why God did what He did.. so those who believe they are 'saved' by their Works cannot BOAST in His Presence.. INdeed!

The Simplicity of Christ Crucified, is So Simple, that it Angers the devil so much when those who are Called by Him Preach and teach it, because it nullifies the pride of Man and his works, you see that on this board as those born of the flesh, persecute and argue about the Simplicity of Christ Crucified, trying to add something to it or take something away.. His Blood Saves.. only thing... His Pure Holy Blood! satan would love you to think there is something more you have to do.. he is a liar...
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,099
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#54
God made man upright with freewill to be able to choose for himself without God having to force men to believe or not.
I'm not talking about God forcing man to believe or not. Man has freewill to choose but unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we will not come to Christ.

If God must "enable" man to believe before man can believe then God becomes morally culpable for all the unbelievers for His failure to enable them.
No, if man responds to His drawing then he will choose to believe and if man resists His drawing then he will refuse to believe.

Mt 8:26 Jesus said "ye of little faith". If God must enable men to believe before they can believe then Christ should have directed His criticism to God for God's failure to enable those disciples with sufficient faith they needed.
Enable does not mean fatalistically determine or force man to believe. It's God's grace (enabling power) and our choice to believe.

Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing can be reading ink on paper and understanding what was written cf Eph 3:3,4.
Not by mere human wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#55
Sea Bass, you are a PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE AL HAIG'S of supposed Christianity! pull God down to your level, tell Him how to act, even use His Word to tell Him how to Act but distorting it then......shake your fist at Him, question Him... then when pride and presumptuousness reaches a boiling point, you step up the podium and tell God , IM IN CONTROL HERE! .. the subtle voice of the serpent.. as he tries to ursurp God's Sovereignty by playing off his pride emotions abilities, one Led of the Spirit sees the subtle work of the serpent.. oh indeed! God is same today as He was yesterday and will be Forever! SALVATION, the Merits of It, its Decree, Its Foundation, Its Truths are all found and Grounded in God's Righteousness, the Gift of Righteousnes, the One Who Gave Himself on the tree, and Crucified before Time and Dirt Were Created! Thats why God did what He did.. so those who believe they are 'saved' by their Works cannot BOAST in His Presence.. INdeed!

The Simplicity of Christ Crucified, is So Simple, that it Angers the devil so much when those who are Called by Him Preach and teach it, because it nullifies the pride of Man and his works, you see that on this board as those born of the flesh, persecute and argue about the Simplicity of Christ Crucified, trying to add something to it or take something away.. His Blood Saves.. only thing... His Pure Holy Blood! satan would love you to think there is something more you have to do.. he is a liar...

Calvinism is pulling God out of His nature, trying to make God act against His very nature for it is not in the nature of God to cause/force men to be lost against man's own will, Eze 33:11.
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#56
The only 'free will' man has persay is to follow his/her fallen will... God is the only One that can pull one out of that darkness and Reveal His Light and Truth to him/her/ Once Regenrated then God can take and direct that person in the Will of God for that persons' life, as Revealed to them thru His Word and the Work of the paraclete, the Spirit of Truth,......thus they are IN THE WILL OF GOD , not a fallen un regnerate will. THAT is WHY you see people who are Genuinely Saved, God turns them 180.. totally around from what they were doing into HIS Will for their life... different job, different relations etc.. a NEW CREATURE in Christ, man in his carnal salvation, claims Christ, yet there is no INWARD CHANGE.. by their Fruit ye shall know them.. claiming christ, yet still dead in trespasses and sins, carnally alive, yet spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.. thats why you had the Master tell the one Ruler, who wanted to follow Him, but first he had to back to bury his father, Jesus said, let the 'dead' bury the 'dead', Ye go Preach the Kingdom of Heaven! 'mans free will to believe'.. okay if thats the case, then the 'thief on the Cross'. he must of 'willed himself up that tree' so he could be crucified next to Jesus so he himself could 'choose christ .. you see the Error in that free will teaching? a man made gospel... indeed!
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#57
I'm not talking about God forcing man to believe or not. Man has freewill to choose but unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we will not come to Christ.

No, if man responds to His drawing then he will choose to believe and if man resists His drawing then he will refuse to believe.

Enable does not mean fatalistically determine or force man to believe. It's God's grace (enabling power) and our choice to believe.

Not by mere human wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:11-14).
Jn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."



God draws men by His word when men are taught hear and learn then men come. It is not some mystical, irresistible drawing.

The verse ends with "cometh unto Me" they come to God of their own freewill having been drawn by the word of God.

God draws, men come.

Some people try say God alone decides who comes to Christ, men have no choice in this. Do yo agree with that idea?
 
Apr 9, 2015
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#58
Calvinism is pulling God out of His nature, trying to make God act against His very nature for it is not in the nature of God to cause/force men to be lost against man's own will, Eze 33:11.
I DONT FOLLOW CALVIN.. SeaBass.. SORRY.... He was NOT CRUCIFIED FOR MY SIN.. nor yours... but Christ, God manifest in the flesh was.. your 'lumping' me into a sect or division of Christ, ye greatly Error.. but nice try though... carry on wayward son..
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#59
I DONT FOLLOW CALVIN.. SeaBass.. SORRY.... He was NOT CRUCIFIED FOR MY SIN.. nor yours... but Christ, God manifest in the flesh was.. your 'lumping' me into a sect or division of Christ, ye greatly Error.. but nice try though... carry on wayward son..



do men use their own free will and choose to believe the word when they hear it and be saved

or

does God choose for men which men will or will not believe whereby men have no choice in the matter and cannot change what God has chosen for them?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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#60
I'm not talking about God forcing man to believe or not. Man has freewill to choose but unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we will not come to Christ.
Addendum:
So those that do not come to Christ is the fault of God for failing to "enable" them to come to Christ?