the Work of God
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When someone comes to Christ, it is because they have been "taught," and hence drawn, by God. The drawing and learning are just different aspects of God's sovereign direction in the person's life. Those taught by God to grasp the truth are also drawn by God the Father to embrace the Son. This does not mean they are forced to embrace the Son.
I didn't say this drawing was mystical or irresistible, though it is God's divine activity.
Yes, after having been drawn by the Father, which goes beyond merely reading words in a book like we are merely reading the words written in a novel by man. Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. How many books written by men can you say that about?
No. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who comes to Christ and who does not, as if man has no choice in the matter. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). It's our choice, but if the Father refused to draw us and enable us then nobody would come to Christ. It's not ALL about us.
I didn't say this drawing was mystical or irresistible, though it is God's divine activity.
Yes, after having been drawn by the Father, which goes beyond merely reading words in a book like we are merely reading the words written in a novel by man. Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. How many books written by men can you say that about?
No. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who comes to Christ and who does not, as if man has no choice in the matter. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). It's our choice, but if the Father refused to draw us and enable us then nobody would come to Christ. It's not ALL about us.
Amen! That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It's tragic the human pride will not allow these people to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.
Paul said the Gospel he preached, as there were other 'gospels' out there during his time as there is today, the Gospel he preached and was Led to deliver to the Gentiles, the Truth of that Gospel was 'hid' from the minds of the unbelieving because the prince of the power of the air had 'blinded' their minds to the Truth, the Simplicity.. it was 'hid' to those who were perishing... WHO CAN UNHIDE it from a lost un regenerate spiritually dead in trespasses and sins soul? God can. and He is the Only who can do it.. can one know the Word effluently, study it, proclaim it, flaunt it, and Yet still be Lost? oh indeed.. this very evident from the Day's of Jesus's Ministry with the Pharisee's , Scribes, Sanhedrin, etc.. all literate and fluent in the Word, YET LOST.. lolz.. no different today....
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But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are Lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which Believe Not, lest the Light of the Glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the Image of God, should Shine unto them.
For we Preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the Light to Shine out of Darkness, hath Shined in our Hearts, to give the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians
Unbelief is so subtle, what do you really believe in? God has provided His Measuring Stick persay, that is Christ Crucified! many claim 'christ' yet when it comes to where the rubber hits the road, Christ Crucified to them becomes a stumbling stone and offence, because it 'taps' them on the shoulder and tells their religious Pride , thats not GOOD ENOUGH... THEY will understand Christ Crucified from a 'traditional' exercrise , once a year, including bunnies and eggs and nice dress wear... but when it comes to really being the 'foundation' of their 'faith'. when put to the Light of Truth, its not.. their carnal man made 'theologies and doctrines' become their foundation, because its those ----->PLUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED.. adding their carnal doctrines to the Complete Atoning Work of Christ... they will 'fall back' on these and add something to or take away something from His Complete Appeasement, so MUCH OF THAT TODAY.. man's religious pride can only be Cracked and reduced to nothing and Replaced with Genuine Faith in Christ by the Work of the Holy Ghost, its grounded in God... many in religious traditions will NEVER break free from that.. but will die physically in un belief, un repentant, hardened , and spiritually dead .. these the vessels fitted for Destruction, reserved by the Father unto the Day of Wrath, the Master Potter, contolling the Clay, both vessels, Righteous and wicked.. Genuine Belief in Christ's Appeasement is Grounded in God Himself, because its the Result of the Paraclete revealing the un merited goodness to the 'sinnner', the One Whom Christ will save , the one whom the Father gave to Christ to redeem, this Achieved as the sinner comes to the Reality and Revelation of what God did for them at the tree, and its Him , who can only remove the guilt and condemnation...... the Revelation of the Mercy and Goodness to the sinner, in darkness, is so strong, that Light piercing darkness, that the Convert will have no other option than to 'melt' in sorrow and joy because of What God has done for them. this Godly sorrow which Leads to repentance... the Foundation in God Himself, the Merits of Salvation based on Christ, and not the qualifications of the 'sinner' to 'believe' out of the blue or his /her own will..
W
Is there a reason why you do not use any scripture whatsoever to support all these religious sounding ideas you are trying to teach everyone.
I think the answer is because the things you teach are not from the Bible. You take one sentence out, paraphrase it and go on 4 page rants to tell everyone that they are all saved unless they are obedient to God... Because that is the only thing that God hates and condemns people for apparently
I think the answer is because the things you teach are not from the Bible. You take one sentence out, paraphrase it and go on 4 page rants to tell everyone that they are all saved unless they are obedient to God... Because that is the only thing that God hates and condemns people for apparently
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The drawing is done by the word of God when one is taught it, hears and learns it then he, of his own freewill chooses to come to Christ. God does not randomly pick which men will or will not be drawn by Christ separate and apart from the word as some theologies claim.
"Merely reading words in a book" IS how God draws and not separate and apart from His words. It is God's book the bible, that does the drawing, not just any book. Nor is the drawing done by some irresistible force separate from His book. Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD of God. It is the word that brings faith, the word that draws and the word is how can operates upon the human heart and not apart from that word.
You post " I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who comes to Christ and who does not, as if man has no choice in the matter."
Some say God has predetermined before the world began which men will believe and come to Christ and who would not. God has predetermined for men which ones will be drawn to Christ and which ones will not. Men have no choice in this nor can a man change what God has predetermined for him.
You posted earlier (my emp) "I'm not talking about God forcing man to believe or not. Man has freewill to choose but unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we will not come to Christ."
You are saying I cannot come to Christ UNLESS GOD first enables me to come. That can only mean if I do not come to Christ would be because God failed to enable me to come to CHrist.
Truth is, I have the ability within myself to come to Christ. When I am drawn by God's word when I am taught, hear and learn I can then of my own freewill "cometh unto Christ" Jn 6:45. There is no supernatural 'enabling' that must be first done to me by God, separate and apart from His word, before I can come to Christ.
You are saying I cannot come to Christ UNLESS GOD first enables me to come. That can only mean if I do not come to Christ would be because God failed to enable me to come to CHrist.
Truth is, I have the ability within myself to come to Christ. When I am drawn by God's word when I am taught, hear and learn I can then of my own freewill "cometh unto Christ" Jn 6:45. There is no supernatural 'enabling' that must be first done to me by God, separate and apart from His word, before I can come to Christ.
"Lydia . . . whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul" - Acts 16:14. If there is no additional influence of God then this last verse, which says the Lord "opened her heart," is superfluous. "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit.." - I Thessalonians 1:5. Obviously, while the word is the means of communicating that which is to be believed, the additional unseen work of the Holy Spirit is necessary for being "born again from above."
I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and who will not be drawn. Man must choose to either receive Christ through faith or reject Christ, but apart from God's drawing, nobody would come to Christ.
God's Word is living and powerful and His Word is not merely ink on a page that draws us based on human wisdom. Do you deny the work of God in salvation? Do you actually believe that the only thing involved in coming to Christ is paper, ink and human intelligence? You reject God's divine drawing?
God's divine drawing along with His living word teaches us and draws us to Christ. It's not merely words only apart from His divine drawing.
Because the word is living and powerful and God divinely draws us to Christ. Mere human wisdom does not. It sounds like you deny God's divine drawing in coming to Christ and believe through mere human wisdom we come to Christ based on reading the Bible likes it's a novel.
God knew before the world began which men will believe and which men will not believe, but that does not mean that God fatalistically determined for it to happen. God gives man freewill to make his own choice.
I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and who will not be drawn. Man must choose to either receive Christ through faith or reject Christ, but apart from God's drawing, nobody would come to Christ.
God's Word is living and powerful and His Word is not merely ink on a page that draws us based on human wisdom. Do you deny the work of God in salvation? Do you actually believe that the only thing involved in coming to Christ is paper, ink and human intelligence? You reject God's divine drawing?
God's divine drawing along with His living word teaches us and draws us to Christ. It's not merely words only apart from His divine drawing.
Because the word is living and powerful and God divinely draws us to Christ. Mere human wisdom does not. It sounds like you deny God's divine drawing in coming to Christ and believe through mere human wisdom we come to Christ based on reading the Bible likes it's a novel.
God knew before the world began which men will believe and which men will not believe, but that does not mean that God fatalistically determined for it to happen. God gives man freewill to make his own choice.
Amen!
Jesus said no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. The NIV says "enables" him. If you don't come to Christ it's because you failed to respond to His drawing. God doesn't fail to draw and enable, man fails to respond.
So you do reject the words of Jesus in John 6:44 and John 6:65.
You believe that by mere human wisdom "apart from the divine drawing/enabling of God," you came to Christ ALL BY YOURSELF?
Jesus said no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. The NIV says "enables" him. If you don't come to Christ it's because you failed to respond to His drawing. God doesn't fail to draw and enable, man fails to respond.
So you do reject the words of Jesus in John 6:44 and John 6:65.
You believe that by mere human wisdom "apart from the divine drawing/enabling of God," you came to Christ ALL BY YOURSELF?Calvinism puts fault and blame upon God by claiming man is so totally depraved that man cannot understand, cannot come to God unless God first acts upon man's heart.
This false claim of Calvinism is NOT supported by the context of Acts 16:
1) verse 14 "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God" Lydia was ALREADY a worshipper of God while she was still lost BEFORE she heard the saving gospel message Rom 1:16. (Same is true of Cornelius Acts 10:1,2,22)
2) the context of Acts 16 says v13 " we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither; 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."
V13 says Paul "spake unto" her, Lydia "heard us" v14 and it was Lydia's hearing Paul's words, understanding those words that convicted her heart to attend unto the things spoken by Paul. God opened her heart by the gospel message spoken to her by Paul. The context does NOT say God opened Lydia's heart to enable her to listen to Paul, she was already listening v14.
Lydia's case would not differ from and contradict Jn 6:45 that says God draws when men are taught, hear and learn of God EXACTLY what happened with Lydia.
Jn 6:45 does not say God draws men any other way than by His word being taught heard and learned. No verse says God draws men separate and apart from His word.
God foreknows but foreknowledge does not demand predetermination.
This false claim of Calvinism is NOT supported by the context of Acts 16:
1) verse 14 "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God" Lydia was ALREADY a worshipper of God while she was still lost BEFORE she heard the saving gospel message Rom 1:16. (Same is true of Cornelius Acts 10:1,2,22)
2) the context of Acts 16 says v13 " we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither; 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."
V13 says Paul "spake unto" her, Lydia "heard us" v14 and it was Lydia's hearing Paul's words, understanding those words that convicted her heart to attend unto the things spoken by Paul. God opened her heart by the gospel message spoken to her by Paul. The context does NOT say God opened Lydia's heart to enable her to listen to Paul, she was already listening v14.
Lydia's case would not differ from and contradict Jn 6:45 that says God draws when men are taught, hear and learn of God EXACTLY what happened with Lydia.
Jn 6:45 does not say God draws men any other way than by His word being taught heard and learned. No verse says God draws men separate and apart from His word.
God foreknows but foreknowledge does not demand predetermination.
You put fault and blame upon God for those He fails to 'enable'.
God gives/grants men the power to come to Christ though His word when men are taught hear and learn of that word and not apart from it. No man has the power to come to Christ apart from the word of God.
Coffman Commentary nicely sums it up: (my emp)
John himself taught that those who "believe on his name" through hearing God's word, are given the "power to become children of God" (John 1:12). The theory which stipulates that one who has heard God's word, consequently believing on Jesus Christ, does not thereby have the right to become a child of God until some mysterious further action on the part of God himself in "drawing" the sinner is repugnant; because, in the final analysis, it makes God and not the sinner responsible for whether or not he accepts the Lord. God has already given his word to men, to the whole creation; and therein is also the power for all who choose to do so to become God's children
mailmandan said:
Jesus said no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father. The NIV says "enables" him. If you don't come to Christ it's because you failed to respond to His drawing. God doesn't fail to draw and enable, man fails to respond.
So you do reject the words of Jesus in John 6:44 and John 6:65. You believe that by mere human wisdom "apart from the divine drawing/enabling of God," you came to Christ ALL BY YOURSELF?
So you do reject the words of Jesus in John 6:44 and John 6:65.
You believe that by mere human wisdom "apart from the divine drawing/enabling of God," you came to Christ ALL BY YOURSELF?
God gives/grants men the power to come to Christ though His word when men are taught hear and learn of that word and not apart from it. No man has the power to come to Christ apart from the word of God.
Coffman Commentary nicely sums it up: (my emp)
John himself taught that those who "believe on his name" through hearing God's word, are given the "power to become children of God" (John 1:12). The theory which stipulates that one who has heard God's word, consequently believing on Jesus Christ, does not thereby have the right to become a child of God until some mysterious further action on the part of God himself in "drawing" the sinner is repugnant; because, in the final analysis, it makes God and not the sinner responsible for whether or not he accepts the Lord. God has already given his word to men, to the whole creation; and therein is also the power for all who choose to do so to become God's children
at the end of the day - can you boast of anything or does God receive all glory and honor and praise?
do you get wages or a gift?
do you earn reprieve or receive mercy?
do you have something to be thankful for or to demand as though you merit it?
that's what this is about.
we can swim in meaningless details and definitions for a lifetime. it won't make a hair grow on your head, but it may make some fall out.
as for me & my house, we will thank and praise the LORD!
do you get wages or a gift?
do you earn reprieve or receive mercy?
do you have something to be thankful for or to demand as though you merit it?
that's what this is about.
we can swim in meaningless details and definitions for a lifetime. it won't make a hair grow on your head, but it may make some fall out.
as for me & my house, we will thank and praise the LORD!
It's not about blaming God, but man is depraved and God must act upon man's heart or else man will not come to Christ (John 6:44,65). 1 Corinthians 2:12 - Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your false claim is not supported by the context of Acts 16.
Which shows that people can be "religious" but not right with God. Cornelius was said to have prayed to God always yet he still needed to hear words from Peter by which he and his household will be saved (Acts 11:14). Those words - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43). For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Yet YOU still REFUSE to BELIEVE.
To open means to open completely (wide, like "double folding doors" or as when Stephen in his last moments before martyrdom saw "the heavens opened up" Acts 7:56) and can speak of opening to one's understanding what is otherwise hidden to their intellect. To open the sense of Scripture and thus to explain the Scripture. To thoroughly disclose or cause one to thoroughly understand. This "means to explain what is concealed or obscure." Dianoigo is one of those truly "supernatural" words, a word that speaks of the Spirit's enabling power! The supernatural opening of one's (spiritual) eyes, the opening of one's mind to Scriptural truth, explaining the truth, and unless this occurs, we cannot truly understand it naturally, because it is supernatural - (Lk 24:45, cp Lk 24:32), the supernatural opening of Lydia's heart to receive the gospel preached by Paul (Acts 16:14). The gospel does not come to us in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 1:5).
Lydia's case is no different and does not contradict John 6:44-45. She was drawn and taught by God. Her heart was opened which enabled her to to understand what would otherwise be hidden. The fact that this truth is hid from you demonstrates something very disturbing about your heart condition.
The Bible is not merely a text book by which only those who have superior intellect can understand. The word dynamai means to be able. This means that no human, on his own, has the moral and spiritual ability to come to Christ unless God the Father draws him. The inclination to come and the ability to understand and place faith in Christ comes from God. You still don't get that and think this is ALL about YOU and we can see the end result. The gospel remains hid from you. Paul talks about that in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and mentions - lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. So only the Lord could open the heart of Lydia to understand just as Jesus had opened (the same verb) the mind of the disciples to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:45).
I never said it did. Don't confuse me with 5 point Calvinists.
Your false claim is not supported by the context of Acts 16.
Which shows that people can be "religious" but not right with God. Cornelius was said to have prayed to God always yet he still needed to hear words from Peter by which he and his household will be saved (Acts 11:14). Those words - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43). For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Yet YOU still REFUSE to BELIEVE.
To open means to open completely (wide, like "double folding doors" or as when Stephen in his last moments before martyrdom saw "the heavens opened up" Acts 7:56) and can speak of opening to one's understanding what is otherwise hidden to their intellect. To open the sense of Scripture and thus to explain the Scripture. To thoroughly disclose or cause one to thoroughly understand. This "means to explain what is concealed or obscure." Dianoigo is one of those truly "supernatural" words, a word that speaks of the Spirit's enabling power! The supernatural opening of one's (spiritual) eyes, the opening of one's mind to Scriptural truth, explaining the truth, and unless this occurs, we cannot truly understand it naturally, because it is supernatural - (Lk 24:45, cp Lk 24:32), the supernatural opening of Lydia's heart to receive the gospel preached by Paul (Acts 16:14). The gospel does not come to us in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 1:5).
Lydia's case is no different and does not contradict John 6:44-45. She was drawn and taught by God. Her heart was opened which enabled her to to understand what would otherwise be hidden. The fact that this truth is hid from you demonstrates something very disturbing about your heart condition.
The Bible is not merely a text book by which only those who have superior intellect can understand. The word dynamai means to be able. This means that no human, on his own, has the moral and spiritual ability to come to Christ unless God the Father draws him. The inclination to come and the ability to understand and place faith in Christ comes from God. You still don't get that and think this is ALL about YOU and we can see the end result. The gospel remains hid from you. Paul talks about that in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and mentions - lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. So only the Lord could open the heart of Lydia to understand just as Jesus had opened (the same verb) the mind of the disciples to understand the Scriptures (Luke 24:45).
I never said it did. Don't confuse me with 5 point Calvinists.
No I don't. God doesn't fail to draw and enable. Man fails to respond to His drawing and enablement. God does not force us to come to Christ.
It's not word only but also power and the Holy Spirit. God draws and opens one's heart to Scriptural truth, explaining the truth, and unless this occurs, we cannot truly understand it naturally, because it is supernatural. The natural man is spiritually discerned.
Coffman sounds confused like you. The fact remains God draws us and enables us and we either choose to respond and believe on His name or else we refuse to respond and refuse to believe on His name. God's drawing and enablement simply makes it possible for the blind sinner to come to Christ. Everyone has a choice, so God is not responsible for whether or not one accepts the Lord. Man is responsible. Although we are commanded to BELIEVE and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
It's not word only but also power and the Holy Spirit. God draws and opens one's heart to Scriptural truth, explaining the truth, and unless this occurs, we cannot truly understand it naturally, because it is supernatural. The natural man is spiritually discerned.
Coffman sounds confused like you. The fact remains God draws us and enables us and we either choose to respond and believe on His name or else we refuse to respond and refuse to believe on His name. God's drawing and enablement simply makes it possible for the blind sinner to come to Christ. Everyone has a choice, so God is not responsible for whether or not one accepts the Lord. Man is responsible. Although we are commanded to BELIEVE and will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.