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K
Ah, you did it already, was gonna post it anyway, LOL
The Bible instructs mankind to make righteous decisions by free will,
But some believe there are verses that support the doctrine of "God predestined the fate of all men to eternal life!"
The Scripture teaches that "Your Faith" is a requirement, so, in my faith, I go with the "free will"
If there's any verse, in the Bible, that supports the doctrine of "Your Fate is in Heaven," please do post it here
Trust in Jesus Only!
~Ren
The Bible instructs mankind to make righteous decisions by free will,
But some believe there are verses that support the doctrine of "God predestined the fate of all men to eternal life!"
The Scripture teaches that "Your Faith" is a requirement, so, in my faith, I go with the "free will"
If there's any verse, in the Bible, that supports the doctrine of "Your Fate is in Heaven," please do post it here
Trust in Jesus Only!
~Ren
E
Acts 13:48 (King James Version)
" 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."
Ephesians 1:3-7 (King James Version)
" 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having PREDESTINED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
There may be some role for human choice in life, but it's clear in the Bible that God chooses who he will save and who he will condemn based on his will and not on their merits. God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were even born (Romans 9:13).
" 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."
Ephesians 1:3-7 (King James Version)
" 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having PREDESTINED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
There may be some role for human choice in life, but it's clear in the Bible that God chooses who he will save and who he will condemn based on his will and not on their merits. God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were even born (Romans 9:13).
B
God knows who will be saved, saying He chooses to condemn people is blasphemy against His character, and contradicts scripture. God can know peoples decisions without causing it, He knew Adam & Eve would sin, but He didn't cause it.
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
or in the KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:13 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (KJV)
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV)
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
or in the KJV
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
James 1:13 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (KJV)
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV)
E
Matthew 24:22
"22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."
2 Timothy 1:9 (King James Version)
"9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Romans 8:28-30 (New American Standard Bible)
" 28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
Romans 9:20-22 (New American Standard Bible)
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
"22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."
2 Timothy 1:9 (King James Version)
"9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Romans 8:28-30 (New American Standard Bible)
" 28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
Romans 9:20-22 (New American Standard Bible)
20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
R
And BTW, for those that think he died only for those who ultimately choose Him, Jesus did not just die for those that would one day place faith in Him.....He died for ALL OF MANKIND!!!
"And that he DIED FOR ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Corinthians 5:15
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
"And that he DIED FOR ALL, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Corinthians 5:15
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
B
Election is never to salvation, but it is to certain blessings. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the Spirit, (This is verse 2) unto obedience and sprinkling on the blood of Jesus Christ" So we are elected unto a life of obedience. Now, it's elect according to foreknowledge, so election is not like god says, Eenie, meenie, minee mo, I'll elect you to salvation and I wont elect you. But it's according to His foreknowledge. What would foreknowledge have to do with election? It nmeans God must have known something ahead of time about these people that He's going ti elect. What would God have to know? If he's just favoring one person over another, He doesn't have to know anything. So it is always...if we went to Romans 8, predestined is the same thing, elect means you've been predestined to something.. verse 29: "For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate"..predestinate to what? To salvation? Predestined to be conformed to thge image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. God didn't have to make us His children, He could have out us on a planet out there somewhere and delivered us from hell. So we're predestined to certain blessings. if we went to Eph. 1, we get the same thing. verse 4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." So what does elect, chosen, predestined, foreknown mean? They're all talking about the same thing. There are certain people that God knew would respond to the gospel, and He knew that beforehand, and it's dependent on their reaction, whether or not they believe in Jesus or they reject Him. Eph. 1.4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children." So, it's the same thought, why would God choose certain people? We have to remember that when He chooses it doesn't mean that's not enough, because in John 6 Jesus says "Have I not chosen you 12. and one if you is a devil?" He chose Judas. In other words, He's giving them the opportunity to be what He wants them to be, but it's still up to their choice, they have a choice.
T
"free-will like freedom is never free"--someone had to pay a price and also free-will and freedom are more like rights that a person has to live and demand by his life than stuff that you just have...this just came to mind first, I am about to writ e a more understnadable and orderly account of freewill and fate/predestination...
First, you have to notice the practical applications of the terms...Are those who are slave to sin free? Look at anybody in your life that is caught in sin and you will find that they truly are not free, their conscience being darkened--they truly are a slave to their sin--people that curse or abusive, any of it, you have to ask yourself if anybody with a clear mind would choose to be or act the way they are acting...I think you would say no--they and their wills are slaves...
Second, practically I do not believe humans can do good apart from God...but we do have the choice to do/be evil...kind of pessemestic, I know...but think about it it feels as if you could go out and do things seriously wrong/ sinful but we cannot know that what we are doing is good, for as Gandalf says we do not know the ENDS of our actions rather they be good or evil...
Unlike Luther I believe it is grace, and grace alone that leads us to Christ...when we lived as sinners in Socrates cave, seeing only shadows, it was grace that gave us light to see both ourselves and this world...
thats all for now,
God bless...
tony
First, you have to notice the practical applications of the terms...Are those who are slave to sin free? Look at anybody in your life that is caught in sin and you will find that they truly are not free, their conscience being darkened--they truly are a slave to their sin--people that curse or abusive, any of it, you have to ask yourself if anybody with a clear mind would choose to be or act the way they are acting...I think you would say no--they and their wills are slaves...
Second, practically I do not believe humans can do good apart from God...but we do have the choice to do/be evil...kind of pessemestic, I know...but think about it it feels as if you could go out and do things seriously wrong/ sinful but we cannot know that what we are doing is good, for as Gandalf says we do not know the ENDS of our actions rather they be good or evil...
Unlike Luther I believe it is grace, and grace alone that leads us to Christ...when we lived as sinners in Socrates cave, seeing only shadows, it was grace that gave us light to see both ourselves and this world...
thats all for now,
God bless...
tony
I believe it's not one or the other, I believe we have free will and so does God. Often God overrides our free will, and we don't get a choice, He is Sovereign. God has set the boundaries , called birth and death, and we somehow fumble our way through life in between, using our ability to choose, coupled with the roadblocks or doors opening that God puts in our path, and yes other people and satan can do that too. The difference between God and us is we can't "will" something to exist like God can. So our "free will' is probably better explained as "freedom to choose". And with salvation, we really don't have the ability to choose God before He chose us. We never willed God to send Jesus. God set it all up, the life and death of Christ, and our "free will" is simply our response to the Gospel by faith, as enabled by the Holy Spirit. Can anyone ever explain how and why they believe in Christ, i.e. did they make themselves believe? I think our belief is simply a response to the hearing of the Gospel.
God has already pre-determined how many days we will live.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my embryo; and in Your book all my members were written, the days they were formed, and not one was among them.
And every moment in our lives is pre-determined by God. It is amazing to think that God has already determined what you will be doing tomorrow, before you even know.
S
Every passage in the NT about predestination is not about the lost being saved, but about what the saved are to be (or become) like.
The use of "whosoever will" should tell us a lot. The parable of the sower should tell us the matter depends a lot on us, the condition of our own hearts.
God desires all men to come to repentance, to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God love the world, not just part of it.
The use of "whosoever will" should tell us a lot. The parable of the sower should tell us the matter depends a lot on us, the condition of our own hearts.
God desires all men to come to repentance, to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God love the world, not just part of it.
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