What say the rest of you?

[Baruch]

~Coming to the Lord 'as a child' means to come in INNOCENCE, without guile.
~You're right, it is BELIEF which fosters obedience, that is all that is needed. Can a baby believe? No.

You do not know that.

God is at work. No man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. God Whom made the seeing eye and the hearing ear... He causes the increase. Nothing is impossible with God.

In Acts 10:34-44 we see the exact words Peter used. How much knowledge of accountability has been mustered by the believing Gentiles before they had received the Holy Ghost? If by faith, they had received the promise of the Spirit by believing in Jesus, then by preaching the Gospel to the baby, they too can believe and receive the promise of the Spirit by Jesus Christ, providing that God causes the increase.

~You're right again: It is not a matter of background, culture or intelligence...because even babies are intelligent, which is to say they CAN LEARN.
But a baby cannot comprehend 'counting the cost' and submitting to God's word until they are quite a bit older.
Maggie]

They can learn to believe, but what is it that you seem to think counting the cost is beyond the reach of a child or a baby? If trusting the Lord is all a believer can do, is that not counting the cost of what He will do as in what He has started by the Spirit, He will finish it in His day of glory??

All I can say is, blessed are the feet that brings good news. A baby is a captive audience and singing Amazing Grace as a lullaby plants the seed for God to causes the increase at any time He wants for nothing is impossible with God.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Infant baptism takes the focus off of Jesus and places it on baptism. There are people out there that believe that one only need be baptized to go to heaven. My parents attended a Lutheran church while I was growing up; they had all of us children baptized when we were little because it was what the church told them needed to be done to be saved. They've rested their hopes of salvation on that baptism rather than on knowing Jesus because of what the church told them. So to me, there IS harm in infant baptism.

If you are a believer and want to dedicate your child to God to show that faith, that is one thing. But otherwise, it's a practice that just misleads unbelievers into a false sense of security based on a sprinkling or immersion of water

That's true I agree, unfortunately unbelievers bring their kids to be baptised and they are, and there is nothing done about faith. But let's think about this another way, from the point of view of evangelism. It does give the unbelievers contact with the church. And by faith the church and priest or pastor believes that God is faithful and that it does something that is better than the unbelievers not coming to church at all. You never know it may plant a seed which grows as the child gets older, in the parents and their friends too. In fact in our average church size of 30, when a baptism is on that grows to 70 or 80. Number of unbelievers may outweigh the number of believers. But that is a good opportunity for evangelism. Most churches want unbelievers to come to their church and baptism (or consecration) is one way to do that.

I know a number of families who start coming to church because their child was baptised and they were made to feel welcome by the church. They may not be believers by the standards of fundamentalist evangelism, but bit by bit they are exposed to and experiecing something of God.

But for believers I see a person resting hopes in their child salvation based on their baptism, no different to a person believing their child is saved because they are too young. I was infant baptised but it was made clear to me that I had to believe for myself.

 

[MaggieMye]

that's why infant baptism works.Truly, it does not 'work'. Please read the article at:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/INFBAP.HTM
It is the faith of the parents for the child that God sees .Children beyond the age of accountability cannot get into heaven on their parents shirttails and those under the age of accountability are sanctified by their parent's personal relationship with Jesus and obedience to God's Written Word. In our society we are too individualistic. But God looks at households and the children of saved (and married) parents are special by virtue of the marriage covenant. No, God looks a the heart of each individual. What about the single mom whose husband left her? Her child is also sanctified by her and yet she is not married. ('Sanctify' = to treat as holy; free from sin) Not to mention the possibility of the Spirit's presence being imparted to the child via the mother or father, and any prayers for the child to receive the Spirit at an early age. Holy Spirit IS a gentleman and will never enter into a person or come upon a person without that person's heart's desire to have Him. He will not violate the will of any person regardless of the prayers of parents or anyone else. He will, however, tender their heart to be receptive. You stated that the Spirit is a gentlemen and won't come upon anyone without their permission. Well I disagree, that's sort of putting rules upon God.No, it isn't. That is God's own 'rule' for Himself!! Why? Because He will not force any of us to love Him….Can true love be forced? No, it cannot. Likewise, the DESIRE to filled with Holy Spirit cannot be forced upon anyone; the desire to be used of God cannot be forced upon anyone. For God to force anything upon us would be for Him to violate His own LOVING Character. 1 Cor 13:4-8a tells us of His love towards us: Love is patient, love is kind andis not jealous; love does not brag and is notarrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, butrejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8Love never fails; To force anything upon mankind would be a violation of His love towards us.
There are examples in the old testament of the Spirit coming upon a person simply by virtue of their proximity to Holy Spirit filled people. what's the verse? And afterall, isn't that how an unbeliever is converted? No. Holy Spirit does not come upon a person until after they believe and make a life's commitment to Christ. The events of ACTS 2 happened to people who had already been believers for quite some time. I’m not saying that Holy Spirit is not involved, but it is the 'tendering of the soil of the heart'. No one is forced to believe…unless you count the person who, like Lee Strobel, set out to prove that Jesus was not God, and was 'forced' to believe that He was because of the insurmountable evidence he acquired during his research. The Spirit draws that person to themself, perhaps without the person's knowledge or consent. It is an INVITATION, not coercion.

How is believing for a child's salvation, before the child can believe for themself, any different to a person believing for another person's healing and seeing them healed, even though the person themself might not have enough faith? It is because of the CHARACTER of God. God will not force Himself upon anyone. But just like we read in the Gospels, the healings that Jesus did caused, drew, invited many to follow Him. Not one of the people that received healing were forced to follow Jesus and become a Christian. If you read the story about the 10 lepers, you see that only one of the ten actually became a follower of Christ, he having faith: Luke 17: 15-19 " 15Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice, 16and he fell on his face at His feet, (this is worship) giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan. 17Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine--where are they? 18"Was no one found who returned to give glory to God,No one gives glory to something he does not believe in except this foreigner?" 19And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well." Ten cleansed and only one believed and had faith. So in answer to your question, it is God's GRACE (giving us what we do not deserve) and Mercy (withholding what we do deserve….like death) that is at the core of even non-believers being healed.
You could say infant baptism is putting faith in faith. It's faith from beginning to end. No. It is putting faith into a very sneaky deception from the pit of hell that causes parents to carry out what they THINK is going to save their child. Only Christian can be Biblically baptized. No one can be a Christian without actively accepting Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. This article might help you get a better grip of what I'm trying to get across here. John MacArthur is a noted Biblical scholar and author of commentaries, books, articles, sermons and other excellent tools which help us to better understand the Scriptures.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/INFBAP.HTM

 

[MahogonySnail]

Children beyond the age of accountability cannot get into heaven on their parents shirttails and those under the age of accountability are sanctified by their parent's personal relationship with Jesus and obedience to God's Written Word.

You could be right about that but please provide one Scripture which mentions the age of accountability. There is something wrong to me with an idea that goes like, when the kid is 8, they are not accountable and saved, but when they hit 9 or whatever that age of understanding is, if they die without believing in Christ they go straight to hell burning in fire forever. You don't see a problem with that belief? Why would God save a child at age 8 if he did not want to also save the child at age 9 as well?

No. Holy Spirit does not come upon a person until after they believe and make a life's commitment to Christ.

Yet the Spirit must be involved somehow in causing that person to believe, having their eyes opened and scales removed. Balaam and Caiphus (Num 24:2, John 11:51) , there are two examples for you of the Spirit coming even upon wicked men, unbelievers, for His purposes. Of course that doesn't mean these were saved men, but the Spirit came upon them nonetheless. (I say upon, not within as per being born again ). I am sure there may be others in scripture but not aware of them right now. Oh there's Nebuchadnezzar and all those, who had dreams given to them by God. I don't know how God gives anyone a dream unless He comes upon them in some way. And probably without their permission too.


You asked earlier:

There are examples in the old testament of the Spirit coming upon a person simply by virtue of their proximity to Holy Spirit filled people. what's the verse?

Well I was thinking of this one:
Num 11:24 And Moses went out and told the people the words of Jehovah, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them all around the tabernacle.
Num 11:25 And Jehovah came down in a cloud and spoke to him, and took of the spirit on him and gave it to the seventy elders. And it happened when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they never did so again.
Num 11:26 But two of the men stayed in the camp; the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other was Medad. And the Spirit rested upon them. And they were of those who were written, but did not go out to the tabernacle. And they prophesied in the camp.

And then there are the examples of anointed cloths or Peter's shadow where the anointing heals the sick simply due to their proximity.

I think the Spirit comes upon whoever He chooses. Just as God also sends spirits of delusion upon whoever he wants to, without their permission.

To force anything upon mankind would be a violation of His love towards us.

Ahh, no, I don't believe that the measure of God's love is a "hands off" approach. That's not the kind of Gentlemen I believe God is. Not the kind with a tuxedo, bow tie, walking stick , moustache and a monacle with impeccable manners. God gets His hands dirty. It is because of God's love that He has intervened in the affairs of mankind, without our permission. God is God, we are not, He is Sovereign, He does whatever he wants. He can, has and done, forced good or bad upon anyone He chooses, with or without their permission. It is because God intervened without our permission and sent Jesus Christ to die for us , that we could be saved. We being dead in our sins did not ask God to send Jesus for us.

It is an INVITATION, not coercion.

Oh it's a very strong invitation though. "invitation" to me sounds like God is saying "oh pretty please, I'm a little pussy cat so loving and kind, I would really really like you to come to Jesus, but you don't have to...if you don't want to..that's ok...ahh nicey nicey nicey, I better be careful and tread gently that I don't offend them...". No.. I believe in a strong and mighty and powerful God. When he "invites" someone, it is very very hard to resist. As the Psalmist said of God's presence, God hedged him in!! God really beseiged David he had no where to go!

Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

Barnes commentary:
The word rendered "beset" - צור tsûr - means properly to press; to press upon; to compress. It has reference commonly to the siege of a city, or to the pressing on of troops in war; and then it comes to mean to besiege, hem in, closely surround, so that there is no way of escape. This is the idea here - that God was on every side of him; that he could not escape in any direction. He was like a garrison besieged in a city so that there was no means of escape. There is a transition here (not an unnatural one), from the idea of the Omniscience of God to that of His Omnipresence, and the remarks which follow have a main reference to the latter.

David had no where to run and hide from God!!!

And I bet Jonah never gave God permission to let a big fish eat him up. Could it be that God forced Jonah to spend 3 nights in a fish? hmmm. How could a loving gentlemen God force Jonah to spend 3 nights in a fish?!

Holy Spirit IS a gentleman and will never enter into a person or come upon a person without that person's heart's desire to have Him. He will not violate the will of any person regardless of the prayers of parents or anyone else. He will, however, tender their heart to be receptive.

Yet remember it is also the Spirit's job to convict the world (ie unbelievers):

Joh 16:8 And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment.
Logically, in order to do this conviction, the Spirit must be actively working in the lives of unbelievers. Not waiting around for an invitation to come into their life. This is why some people who have never heard of Christ before in far off lands may be saved. It's not that common but it happens. When God wants to save someone He'll save them.

I would think that the Spirit would need to be present and upon or within a person in order to tender their heart, wouldn't you think? But I believe God the Spirit is omniscient:
Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.

I believe God speaks to unbelievers and God is involved in the lives of unbelievers and everyone.

For God to force anything upon us would be for Him to violate His own LOVING Character.

And it would not really be loving of God to wait for our permission, knowing that we are in wretched, sinful, black-hearted, and helpless condition in the first place, and need saving! I think God will do and try whatever it takes.

1 John says:

1Jn 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

It is not that we loved God or called upon God first, it is that He first loved us!! He first called us!

We were without strength, sick, weak and feeble:
Rom 5:6 For we yet being without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


In our wretched condition as sinners and weak and helpless, Christ died for us!

Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Likewise, the DESIRE to filled with Holy Spirit cannot be forced upon anyone; the desire to be used of God cannot be forced upon anyone.

So the question must be asked, in our blind, sinful and sick condition, where do we get this desire from? It must be from God.. because He loved us first.

Let's not think God is sitting back idly twidding His thumbs waiting for a sick and needy person to somehow from somewhere get the desire to pick themselves up and ask Him to save them. God must be working in the heart beforehand before they can do that. Out of context I know but still the same idea:
Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

 

[Baruch]

No. Holy Spirit does not come upon a person until after they believe and make a life's commitment to Christ. The events of ACTS 2 happened to people who had already been believers for quite some time.

Whoah there. The events in Acts 2 was them obeying the commandment from Jesus to wait. He did not say, "Make a commitment to wait for me. Make a commitment to follow Me. Make a commitment to do ALL that I have said and you will have eternal life. Make a commitment and keep it and you will save your own life. I have shown you the way so I am going on vacation now and so good luck. You are going to need it."

He simply said to wait. Did they not cast lot to replace Judas while they were waiting?

We are in a relationship based on trust. That is how you receive the Kingdom of God.... by trusting the Lord which a child can do. If you do not trust the Lord to keep His Word to having saved you by faith in Him and to finish what He has started by the Spirit by faith in Him, then you have not ceased from your own works as God did from His.

Hebrews 4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world....9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

All the Gentiles did in Acts 10 was believe. They did not come forward and verbally state their life's commitment. All they did was believe, and they'd received the promise of the Spirit by Jesus Christ.

To believe means to know that God is with them now after having saved them as His and to help them live as His thus the just shall live by faith.... thus a relationship based on trust in the Lord. This is God's turn now. Man had their chance with the Law and failed. This is to the glory of God in Jesus Christ and why He is the Good News.

But the commitment to follow Christ is not of faith, but of man for it speaks of man and thus they are finishing by the flesh what God has started by the Spirit. They have voided that relationship of trust and turned their faith into just another religion in eyes of the world.

So this is why little children are free to come to Jesus. God will do it.

 

[MaggieMye]

MahogonyS #24
Yet the Spirit must be involved somehow in causing that person to believe, having their eyes opened and scales removed. Balaam and Caiphus (Num 24:2, John 11:51) , there are two examples for you of the Spirit coming even upon wicked men, unbelievers, for His purposes. John 11:51 "51Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,"
(Num 24:2, John 11:51) , there are two examples for you of the Spirit coming even upon wicked men, unbelievers,

Both Balaam and Caiaphus WERE believers! Num 24:2. Balaam was a prophet of God! and Caiaphus was a Levitical priest and believer of God. That Balaam was greedy or that Caiaphus missed it on the Messiah does not negate their belief in God. for Caiaphus, it was his sin of unbelief that caused the hardness of his heart. But THAT does not negate his being used of God in prophesying about Christ's death.
Oh there's Nebuchadnezzar and all those, who had dreams given to them by God. I don't know how God gives anyone a dream unless He comes upon them in some way. And probably without their permission too. Yes, God gave dreams to unbelievers...still does. And He does it for a reason, that being to encourage them to turn their hearts toward Him! And, as we all well know, it doesn't always work! Nebuchadnezzar did come to believe that the Hebrews had a mighty and awesome God, but he refused to submit to Him.
You asked earlier:

There are examples in the old testament of the Spirit coming upon a person simply by virtue of their proximity to Holy Spirit filled people. what's the verse?

Well I was thinking of this one:
Num 11:24 And Moses went out and told the people the words of Jehovah, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them all around the tabernacle.
Num 11:25 And Jehovah came down in a cloud and spoke to him, and took of the spirit on him and gave it to the seventy elders. And it happened when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they never did so again. There is nothing here to indicate that these elders were not followers or believers of God. Remember that the whole race of Hebrews (Israel) knew their God but did not always obey Him. Also, it was GOD that gave the Spirit to these men. It had nothing to do with their proximity to Moses and scripture does not support that concept.

And then there are the examples of anointed cloths or Peter's shadow where the anointing heals the sick simply due to their proximity.

I think the Spirit comes upon whoever He chooses. Just as God also sends spirits of delusion upon whoever he wants to, without their permission.
I think the Spirit comes upon whoever He chooses. Just as God also sends spirits of delusion upon whoever he wants to, without their permission God does NOT send spirits of delusion! He is NOT a God of confusion or deceit! Delusion comes from satan as it is his way of attempting to get us to go astray from His straight path of righteousness.
: In truth, a specific age is not given in scripture. But when one looks at the culture of the Hebrews/Jews, you see that they considered a child of 8 to be accountable and responsible for his/her own actions; at the age of 13, a male child was considered 'adult' and old enough to go to war.
Even today, psychologists and the medical field tells us that whatever habits a child has at the age of 8 will set the precedence for their behavior as an adult...another reason to 'train up a child in the way which he should go'.
Quote:
To force anything upon mankind would be a violation of His love towards us.

Ahh, no, I don't believe that the measure of God's love is a "hands off" approach. I did not say it was a 'hands-off' approach. I said He does not violate the free will that HE GAVE US. First of all, what would be the point of giving man/us free will and then forcing Himself upon us? That's not the kind of Gentlemen I believe God is. He is the kind of Gentleman that gives without requiring a response, but hoping for a positive one. Not the kind with a tuxedo, bow tie, walking stick , moustache and a monacle with impeccable manners. God gets His hands dirty. It is because of God's love that He has intervened in the affairs of mankind, without our permission. No. He only intervenes when man repents and prays. 2 Chron 7:13-15 " 13"If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, 14and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15"Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayer offered in this place. WHEN man seeks HIM, then and only then can He put His 'hands on' and intervene.
God is God, we are not, He is Sovereign, He does whatever he wants. He can, has and done, forced good or bad upon anyone He chooses, with or without their permission. A god that forces bad upon those he claims to love is not the God of the Bible. God is a God of LOVE. God IS LOVE. Read Gal 5:22 to see the characteristics of a Holy, loving God. It is because God intervened without our permission and sent Jesus Christ to die for us , that we could be saved. We being dead in our sins did not ask God to send Jesus for us. You are correct, man did not ask for a Savior. But God, being so filled with love for us, having created us for the sole purpose of fellowship, HAD MERCY ON US and came to earth as Jesus, Immanuel, God incarnate. And while He came that none should perish, to accept this GIFT is always our choice to do so. Many choose to not accept it and, as His word says, spend eternity in hell.


Quote:
It is an INVITATION, not coercion.


Oh it's a very strong invitation though. "invitation" to me sounds like God is saying "oh pretty please, I'm a little pussy cat so loving and kind, I would really really like you to come to Jesus, but you don't have to...if you don't want to..that's ok...ahh nicey nicey nicey, I better be careful and tread gently that I don't offend them...". that's just plain sappy! And Not His character at all! No.. I believe in a strong and mighty and powerful God. Powerful does not mean manipulative or forceful. God is very strong and powerful, but He is also very gentle (Gal 5:22 again) When he "invites" someone, it is very very hard to resist. Think again! How many people sit in their churches every Suday (my husband being one) and continually REFUSE to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior? The invitation is long-standing, always there and yet millions of people have heard the Gospel message, even more than once, and they continue to refuse As the Psalmist said of God's presence, God hedged him in!! God really beseiged David he had no where to go! But you forget that David was a man after God's own heart!! God did not force David. David pursued God!

 

[MaggieMye]

Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Read in context, David is exuding the magnificence and omnipotence of God. He is not saying that he is trapped. Read the underlined that YOU wrote:

Barnes commentary:
The word rendered "beset" - צורtsûr - means properly to press; to press upon; to compress. It has reference commonly to the siege of a city, or to the pressing on of troops in war; and then it comes to mean to besiege, hem in, closely surround, so that there is no way of escape. This is the idea here - that God was on every side of him; that he could not escape in any direction. He was like a garrison besieged in a city so that there was no means of escape. There is a transition here (not an unnatural one), from the idea of the Omniscience of God to that of His Omnipresence, and the remarks which follow have a main reference to the latter. There is no reference or indication that he was feeling oppressed of God or trapped. Simply, David was in AWE.

David had no where to run and hide from God!!! Did he even want to? No, not at all. Read 139 in its entirety to see David's heart concerning his awesome God.

And I bet Jonah never gave God permission to let a big fish eat him up. Could it be that God forced Jonah to spend 3 nights in a fish? hmmm. How could a loving gentlemen God force Jonah to spend 3 nights in a fish?! Well, He could have let him drown. How loving would that have been? Jonah was a prophet of God but he was rebellious. God spared Jonah but gave him a taste of what eternal ****ation in hell would be like (Jonah 2). It wasn't until Jonah repented that God opened the mouth of the fish ONTO DRY LAND…again assuring his physical safety.
Quote:
Holy Spirit IS a gentleman and will never enter into a person or come upon a person without that person's heart's desire to have Him. He will not violate the will of any person regardless of the prayers of parents or anyone else. He will, however, tender their heart to be receptive.

Yet remember it is also the Spirit's job to convict the world (ie unbelievers): Yes
Joh 16:8 And when that One comes, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment. You are forgetting that the OT people did not have the Holy Spirit! Holy Spirit did not come UNTIL Jesus ascended to heaven after His resurrection.
Logically, in order to do this conviction, the Spirit must be actively working in the lives of unbelievers. Not waiting around for an invitation to come into their life. This is why some people who have never heard of Christ before in far off lands may be saved. It's not that common but it happens. When God wants to save someone He'll save them. No one can get saved without coming to know Jesus (John 14:6 and 1 Pet. 1:3)
I would think that the Spirit would need to be present and upon or within a person in order to tender their heart, wouldn't you think? But I believe God the Spirit is omniscient:
Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring. Not really sure what point you are trying to make by using this verse, but let's remember, cuz I think we're getting somewhat off-track, thread-wise, here, that 1~the original question was 'how old were you when you got save or asked Jesus to be you Lord and Savior, and 2~ (the bunnytrail) can infants receive what they do not understand? I believe God speaks to unbelievers and God is involved in the lives of unbelievers and everyone. I never meant to imply that Holy Spirit does not minister to unbelievers, of course He does! And God even works good things in the lives of unbelievers. He works bad things in the lives of NO ONE, because it is not His character to do so and unbelievers receive their judgment after they die, not before. However it is satan's pleasure to cause man to THINK that it is God doing the bad things!
Quote:
For God to force anything upon us would be for Him to violate His own LOVING Character.


And it would not really be loving of God to wait for our permission, knowing that we are in wretched, sinful, black-hearted, and helpless condition in the first place, and need saving! I think God will do and try whatever it takes. But it would be loving to force us? Do you have kids? How do they feel towards you when you force the to do something they don’t want to do or don't know that it would be good for them to do so? I know my own kids, if I force any issue regardless of what it might be, do not think favorably towards me. It is not any different for God and mankind.
1Jn 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us. But not everyone loves God, do they? No.
It is not that we loved God or called upon God first, it is that He first loved us!! He first called us! YES!!~ THE INVITATION!!
We were without strength, sick, weak and feeble:
Rom 5:6 For we yet being without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Point?
In our wretched condition as sinners and weak and helpless, Christ died for us!
Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. That is His MERCY and GRACE towards man. But it must be applied and can't be applied without understanding and reasoning.
Quote:
Likewise, the DESIRE to filled with Holy Spirit cannot be forced upon anyone; the desire to be used of God cannot be forced upon anyone.

So the question must be asked, in our blind, sinful and sick condition, where do we get this desire from? It must be from God.. because He loved us first. No one has the desire to be used of God for HIS purposes until after they get to personally KNOW Him. What the lost experience is a great desire TO know Him and His awesome love for them. Once they get to know Him, then they desire that others know Him as well and so they can be used of God.
Let's not think God is sitting back idly twidding His thumbs waiting for a sick and needy person to somehow from somewhere get the desire to pick themselves up and ask Him to save them. God must be working in the heart beforehand before they can do that. Out of context I know but still the same idea: Agreed.
Php 2:13 For it is God who works in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. This was written to believers of Phillipi, and tells of God's joy in being able to work in and through these believers.

 

[loveschild]

People don't have to understand everything about God. They just have to have a open heart to God. And say yes Lord I beileve you are God.

 

[greatkraw]

People don't have to understand everything about God. They just have to have a open heart to God. And say yes Lord I beileve you are God.

no they need to believe that jesus Christ died for their own sins personally

to believe this they need to understand that they are sinners

the most intellectually challenged can understand this

it is the hyper intelligent who have most problem with this

 

[charisenexcelcis]

no they need to believe that jesus Christ died for their own sins personally

to believe this they need to understand that they are sinners

the most intellectually challenged can understand this

it is the hyper intelligent who have most problem with this

Man is capable of making a false god even out of their own intellegence.

 

[greatkraw]

Man is capable of making a false god even out of their own intellegence.

we see that round here a lot

 

[MahogonySnail]

You need to be intelligent to understand the gospel, and God, it's called wisdom, knowledge and understanding, pray and God will give it to you.

 

[greatkraw]

the trouble with Calvinists in particular is their desire to do intellectual gymnastics

if salvation depended on relative intelligenc then God would not be fair

God made things simple to confound the wise(ie the intellectually arrogant)

 

[pickles]

In Luke it tells of how Elizabeth knew Mary carried Jesus because of how John the baptist, then in her womb, jumped when he knew it was Jesus.
Scripture also tells of how the Holy Spirit was with John even in the womb.
I know some will never agree, many will say not until older. I do not try to convince you.
I only speak to bare witness to what I know and lived and live now.
I have memories of talking to God, Jesus even when still in diapers.
These are not stories told to me as some I never told untill now.
But I remember crying to Jesus because I was soaking wet in my crib. Asking him why I was alone. Him telling me to go find my mom.
Climbing out of my crib and crawling down the stairs to find her.
I remember eating ants and telling God I liked the taste.
I remember practicing looking at the sun, Someone had said we could not see God because his love was so great that it would blind us.
So I figured if I practiced looking at the sun and did not squint, then I would be able to see God.
It never bothered my eyes untill my mom found me doing it and told me it would hurt my eyes.
My baby book has the prayers I asked my mom to write for me since I could not write yet, that came from my heart.
I remember being hit by my dad for an hour, not knowng why, and the gentle voice from in me that told me it was not my fault, that my dad was sick in heart.
I believe that I knew Jesus when I was so young because he knew how much I would need him.
I believe that we are his wether we are called at the beginning of the day, middle, or end. All still recieving the same reward.
So as I said before, I tell this not to convince anyone. Only to bare witness to what I have known all my life.
That I have always known Jesus and loved him.
Our Lord Jesus is known to us when we know him. When ever that time is.
God bless, pickles

 

[resurrection33]

Curious...what say the rest of you? Do you believe that uneducated, ignorant, innocent and yet-to-be-informed or taught children/babies can 'receive' salvation without the ability to comprehend? Can they receive (action word here) what they cannot understand?

Yes. .

 

[MahogonySnail]

Uneducated and ignorant cannot receive. Thats why we have teachers. That's why God gives people the Holy Spirit. Babies cannot receive salvation but they can receive God's grace and influence on their lives, and God can give children wisdom and understanding that comes from HIM. But your average child will not be able to understand. Often salvation is confused because people can't understand how a baby can have God's love, grace and favour upon them, yet still not understand... that's because people think salvation is a once for all instant conversion and don't appreciate the fact that salvation is a growth in grace and faith and walk with God that occurs over time, not at a particular instant. That is one downfall of the evangelical movements, but once you understand that salvation is not a 'instant once only' then you can understand what happens with children, the disabled, and other such people as well...and you won't be confused about whether or not they are saved or not because you will understand that God's grace keeps them until they come to a place where they are old enough to understand. The kind of intelligence which is against salvation is man's intelligence, but this is not to say that a person can be saved without intelligence, they just need the type that comes from God. Intelligence is nothing more than a couple of electrical signals in the brain.

 

[pickles]

I believe it is difficult for many to see how a child or mentally disabled could accept Jesus.
First, when asked? The question is, will you accept Jesus into your Heart? Will you accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour?
Both questions have to do with the soul, heart first. Not the mind.
We then spend the rest of our lives getting the mind and body to be in Jesus as our heart already is.
How many times have any of us said, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak?
Dont we often speak of overcoming the flesh?
Do you not see that Jesus enters the heart?
The body and mind just have to learn what the soul already knows.
That it is the heart is where all begins, the rest is flesh trying to catch up with the heart.
God bless, pickles

 

[joint-heir]

Curious...what say the rest of you? Do you believe that uneducated, ignorant, innocent and yet-to-be-informed or taught children/babies can 'receive' salvation without the ability to comprehend? Can they receive (action word here) what they cannot understand?

GOD created us all personally. The pregnancy might seem like 9 months but GOD took a lifetime in our development in how each and everyone of us were going to be like when we entered into this evil sinful world. I see many times after a child is born and it seems to be stricken with something we considered risk or abnormal and our first repsonse is how could a loving and caring GOD do this. Ill tell you how. Many want to say it is the sins of the parents and i will never argue this has nothing to do with it for we do reap what we sow. But, if this child born no matter its circumstances or its abnormalities or even if it will survive is still the miracle of life which is a gift of GOD. When we learn of someones past and upbringing when it began at hopelessness to where it is at VICTORY. This is confirmation of a GOD WHO is able to use this child to become a king and a witness to others who many times feel the world has dealt them a bad deck of cards. This witness allows us to learn that when another 10 times worse than them are standing and not complaining but rejoicing and praising GOD for victory. This sends and instant shock wave saying see GOD is good and you are complaining because you eyes were never opened.

So, never look at a child with disabilities and percieve they are dumb and clueless for GOD has never made anything HE did not love or find worthwhile to die for. In fact, when I see a child who seems to be limited I know somewhere within them they have that special touch of GOD the rest of us spend an entire lifetime searching for. And who knows, a child who unfortunately and tragically passes away is trully luckier than us who are still living and trodding each day in hopes of one day being where these beautfiul children are right now in paradise with our LORD and SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Regarding the fate of children who die young, a great deal depends oupon your view of the story of the birth of David's son, who dies very soon thereafter. David expresses his confidence that he will see the baby again, i.e. after death. If he is right, then there is some provision made for children. If not, then we look elsewhere is scripture for an answer. I think that Matthew 18:19 is significant. "See that you do not despise one of these littel ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven." This is one passage in which I think that we must keep in mind that angels are, by definition, first messengers. We may argue over a number of different interpretations, but one fact is clear, that the favor of God rests upon children.

 

[loveschild]

Saying that you believe God is God is having faith. I'm sure the Lord will send people to tell them about how Jesus died. The bible is being written in every language there is in the world.