How Israel was born.

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ivanc0

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Mar 23, 2014
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[SUP]Genesis 32
24 [/SUP]And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[SUP]25[/SUP]And when the man saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint as he wrestled with him.

[SUP]26[/SUP]And the man said, “Let me go, for the day breaketh.” And he said, “I will not let thee go, unless thou bless me.”

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said unto him, “What is thy name?” And he said, “Jacob.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And he said, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And Jacob asked him, and said, “Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.” And he said, “Why is it that thou dost ask after my name?” And he blessed him there.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [that is, The face of God]: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he limped upon his thigh.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day, because he touched the hollow of Jacob’s thigh in the sinew that shrank.


The story above has a number of serious contradictions.

God does not know the name of Jacob.
God is just a man.
God wrested a man and lost.
Jacob seen God's Face.
And his name will be Israel, because he has prevailed against....GOD!

Could some one please explain!

Thanks.
 
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NO MAN has seen God face to face and lived to tell about it....It is obvious that he wrestled with an angel of the Lord, representative of God and the scriptures record his own words and perceptions of said event......????
 
dcontroversal said:
NO MAN has seen God face to face and lived to tell about it....It is obvious that he wrestled with an angel of the Lord, representative of God and the scriptures record his own words and perceptions of said event......????
Click to expand...

Now you saying the bible is wrong? and is just a mistake to say Jacob seen God?
It is written in the most perfect and inspired book!

OK is a legend and jacob does not know the difference between and Angel and God.?

Are you doubting the event?

Please clarify.
 
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ivanc0 said:
Now you saying the bible is wrong? and is just a mistake to say Jacob seen God?
It is written in the most perfect and inspired book!

OK is a legend and jacob does not know the difference between and Angel and God.?

Please clarify.
Click to expand...

JESUS said no man has seen God....so was Jesus mistaken, or was Jacob mistaken......it stands to reason by the things stated that it was an angel of the Lord that Jacob wrestled with.....and his perception was that it was God.....

1. No man can or could prevail against God
2. No there are no mistakes in the bible, although it records the words of men, the devil, demons, God, prophets, priests, kings, whores etc......and even their perceptions right and or wrong......
3. What he wresteled with is called a MAN...and the angels who appered unto men sometimes appeared as a man or men
4. Whoever he wrestles with does not give him a name.....
5. The context seems to dictate it was an angel and Jacob perceives it as GOD.......

Read Hosea 12:4......states it was an angel
 
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dcontroversal said:
NO MAN has seen God face to face and lived to tell about it....It is obvious that he wrestled with an angel of the Lord, representative of God and the scriptures record his own words and perceptions of said event......????
Click to expand...

i reckon you're right, but the OP doesn't care --- he is controlled and seeking to dis GOD and to dis SCRIPTURE and to dis you, he doesn't care about the truth at all, and is not seeking the truth. (from what it says in his posts in this and other threads.)
 
ivanc0 said:
[SUP]Genesis 32
24 [/SUP]And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[SUP]25[/SUP]And when the man saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint as he wrestled with him.

[SUP]26[/SUP]And the man said, “Let me go, for the day breaketh.” And he said, “I will not let thee go, unless thou bless me.”

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he said unto him, “What is thy name?” And he said, “Jacob.”

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And he said, “Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And Jacob asked him, and said, “Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.” And he said, “Why is it that thou dost ask after my name?” And he blessed him there.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [that is, The face of God]: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he limped upon his thigh.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day, because he touched the hollow of Jacob’s thigh in the sinew that shrank.


The story above has a number of serious contradictions.

God does not know the name of Jacob.
God is just a man.
God wrested a man and lost.
Jacob seen God's Face.
And his name will be Israel, because he has prevailed against....GOD!

Could some one please explain!

Thanks.
Click to expand...

God does not know the name of Jacob. If you have ever spent time in a classroom you will realize that the fact that a question is asked does NOT necessarily mean that the questioner does not know the answer.

God is just a man. The Old Testament contains several 'theophanies' pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus in apparently human form. In such appearances, Jesus is either called a man or the Angel of God; but neither of these terms have the intent of challenging His divinity.

God wrested a man and lost. Have you ever wrestled with either your child or your girlfriend and intentionally lost?
Many of us have done so; and not because we were unable to win.. The name Israel means contender with God.
There is a double take in the name:

1) Contender on God's behalf.
2) Contender Against God.

In fact, Israel, throughout his history has played both roles both as a man and as a nation.

God, in allowing Israel to prevail, sets up the lesson He wanted to teach.

Jacob seen God's Face. Jacobsaw either the face of the pre-incarnate Jesus; or a representation thereof.

And his name will be Israel, because he has prevailed against....GOD! Explained above
 
Hosea 12:42

[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Yea, he had power over the angel and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto Him; he found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke with us,

Genesis 32:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [that is, The face of God]: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”



He was so sure He Saw God that called the place Peniel.

There is not confusion here, He names a place after the event, and declares that is marvelled because He have seen God and his life is preserved.

Now is you that does not want to take the bible literally,....... because is not in accordance to your doctrine.
 
MarcR said:
God does not know the name of Jacob. If you have ever spent time in a classroom you will realize that the fact that a question is asked does NOT necessarily mean that the questioner does not know the answer.

God is just a man. The Old Testament contains several 'theophanies' pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus in apparently human form. In such appearances, Jesus is either called a man or the Angel of God; but neither of these terms have the intent of challenging His divinity.

God wrested a man and lost. Have you ever wrestled with either your child or your girlfriend and intentionally lost?
Many of us have done so; and not because we were unable to win.. The name Israel means contender with God.
There is a double take in the name:

1) Contender on God's behalf.
2) Contender Against God.

In fact, Israel, throughout his history has played both roles both as a man and as a nation.

God, in allowing Israel to prevail, sets up the lesson He wanted to teach.

Jacob seen God's Face. Jacobsaw either the face of the pre-incarnate Jesus; or a representation thereof.

And his name will be Israel, because he has prevailed against....GOD! Explained above
Click to expand...

this bit "pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus in apparently human form" is a complete and utter speculation.
Please support this bit as is the core of your explanation.
 
ivanc0 said:
Hosea 12:42

[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Yea, he had power over the angel and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto Him; he found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke with us,

Genesis 32:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [that is, The face of God]: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”



He was so sure He Saw God that called the place Peniel.

There is not confusion here, He names a place after the event, and declares that is marvelled because He have seen God and his life is preserved.

Now is you that does not want to take the bible literally,....... because is not in accordance to your doctrine.
Click to expand...

You know what...I really could care less about your opinion of what I believe......it seems your last line written to me is applicable unto yourself.....the verses are clear and easily understood....so stay blind...no biggie to me!
 
Jeff_56 said:
i reckon you're right, but the OP doesn't care --- he is controlled and seeking to dis GOD and to dis SCRIPTURE and to dis you, he doesn't care about the truth at all, and is not seeking the truth. (from what it says in his posts in this and other threads.)
Click to expand...

The argument is valid and based in the scripture, not invention or speculation.

also my other comments are based in direct quoting of the bible. please comment in the subject and do not try to be just smart criticising the author of the question.
 
dcontroversal said:
You know what...I really could care less about your opinion of what I believe......it seems your last line written to me is applicable unto yourself.....the verses are clear and easily understood....so stay blind...no biggie to me!
Click to expand...

So Hosea is correct and Jacob wrong because does not fit, what Jesus said.
So was not God but an Angel, or as Mark said God in the form of an Angel that was en reality the incarnate Jesus.
Have you Hear the KISS acronym. This is exactly is match when people have to Invent all kind of theories to explain this simple verses.

Literally it says Jacob have seen God face to face.
 
ivanc0 said:
So Hosea is correct and Jacob wrong because does not fit, what Jesus said.
So was not God but an Angel, or as Mark said God in the form of an Angel that was en reality the incarnate Jesus.
Have you Hear the KISS acronym. This is exactly is match when people have to Invent all kind of theories to explain this simple verses.

Literally it says Jacob have seen God face to face.
Click to expand...

Look, Jesus said NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD period!

The BIBLE does not say that JACOB SEEN GOD...JACOB SAID THAT HE HAD SEEN GOD.....that does not men that JACOB was RIGHT......I could care less about some stupid acronym .....

Hosea said it was an ANGEL
JESUS said NO MAN has SEEN GOD

You do the math and believe what you will...the scripture is clear!
 
dcontroversal said:
Look, Jesus said NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD period!

The BIBLE does not say that JACOB SEEN GOD...JACOB SAID THAT HE HAD SEEN GOD.....that does not men that JACOB was RIGHT......I could care less about some stupid acronym .....

Hosea said it was an ANGEL
JESUS said NO MAN has SEEN GOD

You do the math and believe what you will...the scripture is clear!
Click to expand...

Understand your point, you saying that Jacob was wrong! .
I did the math and the answer is "assertion error"
 
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ivanc0 said:
this bit "pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus in apparently human form" is a complete and utter speculation.
Please support this bit as is the core of your explanation.
Click to expand...


Not speculation it is inference. Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture. No man has seen the Father at any time.

Jacob saw God. These can only be simultaneously true if Jacob saw the pre-incarnate Jesus. This must also be true of all other occasions in which God physically appears to a man.
 
MarcR said:
Not speculation it is inference. Scripture does NOT contradict Scripture. No man has seen the Father at any time.

Jacob saw God. These can only be simultaneously true if Jacob saw the pre-incarnate Jesus. This must also be true of all other occasions in which God physically appears to a man.
Click to expand...


ha ha haaaaa! They saw a different God.
 
ivanc0,

You have persuaded me





that responding to you is wasted effort.
 
breno785au said:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by ivanc0
ha ha haaaaa! They saw a different God.

Is that what you were wanting to get at the whole time?
Click to expand...

NO, This is what you said: He did not saw the face of God, but the Face of Incarnated Jesus, so He saw a different God.

This is how the word of Jesus and this passage of the scripture does not contradict ( Obviously your version not mine)

My Idea is clear: The old testament cannot be read literally, as contradicts many concepts of the New testament and people has to invent fantastic explanations to "fix" the problem.
 
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ivanc0 said:
Hosea 12:42

[SUP] 4 [/SUP]Yea, he had power over the angel and prevailed; he wept, and made supplication unto Him; he found Him in Bethel, and there He spoke with us,

Genesis 32:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel [that is, The face of God]: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”



He was so sure He Saw God that called the place Peniel.

There is not confusion here, He names a place after the event, and declares that is marvelled because He have seen God and his life is preserved.

Now is you that does not want to take the bible literally,....... because is not in accordance to your doctrine.
Click to expand...

whose testimony is more accurate - the prophet anointed by God to teach, or the man who thought he had overcome a being whose mere touch shriveled his thigh?

did you ask this question because you really wanted to know the answer, or because you thought you already knew but wanted to make a point? doesn't it stand to reason that another can ask a question not from ignorance, but to illustrate? Jacob means 'holder of the heel' -- can you see the dim outline of an allegory there?

Jacob wrestled against force that was measured to test him. if he had seen the true glory of the Father, he would not have had to ask His name.

it is as though, a man clings to the heel of a fast runner, and when the runner crosses the finish lane of a race, he tells himself "i have finished the race!"
but the reality is that he was dragged and carried the whole way.
so also Israel.

here is how Israel was truly born:


 
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