Strictly speaking you are incorrect. Jesus as such did not exist in the beginning. It was the Eternal Son Who existed from eternity. It was the Eternal Son Who was with the Father. And the Eternal Son was truly God. Thus He had no beginning. He existed before there was a beginning. He did not 'come from God', He Himself always was God and always will be. He came from the Godhead and became Jesus by becoming man.
Does the bible teach that Jesus is God?
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Strictly speaking you are incorrect. Jesus as such did not exist in the beginning. It was the Eternal Son Who existed from eternity. It was the Eternal Son Who was with the Father. And the Eternal Son was truly God. Thus He had no beginning. He existed before there was a beginning. He did not 'come from God', He Himself always was God and always will be. He came from the Godhead and became Jesus by becoming man.
But that is precisely what it does mean as long as you replace 'Jesus' with 'the Son'. The Son was always an essential part of the Triune God.
Don't you see how you are contradicting yourself? And you are doing so because you fail to see that when human language is applied to the Godhead it is not strictly accurate. God cannot be described accurately in human terminology.
If the SON already WAS in the beginning with the Father, He could NOT have been begotten of the Father in any human sense. In human terms what is begotten comes AFTER its begetter. But if the SON was already in existence with the Father before there was a beginning, He is not begotten AFTER the Father. That is why theologians speak of Him being 'eternally begotten'. The language of 'begetting' is to bring out that the Father and Son share the same nature and being. It must not be forced.
Your distinction of 'that is in Heaven' is a false distinction. Even while Jesus was on earth He was also in Heaven. The Father and the Son cannot be separated. They are distinct but not separate. Wherever the Father is, there is the Son. Wherever the Son is there is the Father.
Yes it was JESUS, God made man and therefore in His humanity limited to the earthly sphere, Who spoke of 'His Father in Heaven. As the Son He was Himself also in Heaven. As I demonstrated above your view is self-contradictory.
you are pointing your finger at yourself. WOE to you for you deny the eternity of the Son. You clearly do not understand the incarnation.
In his incarnation the SON took a lower status than the Father and was born as Jesus (My Father is greater than I), but that did not mean that He was essentially lower than the Father. He was essentially worthy of the same honour as the Father (John 5.23). And He still ruled with His Father in Heaven.
What you believe contradicts 'in the beginning the Word was already in existence' (John 1.1)
Don't you see how you are contradicting yourself? And you are doing so because you fail to see that when human language is applied to the Godhead it is not strictly accurate. God cannot be described accurately in human terminology.
If the SON already WAS in the beginning with the Father, He could NOT have been begotten of the Father in any human sense. In human terms what is begotten comes AFTER its begetter. But if the SON was already in existence with the Father before there was a beginning, He is not begotten AFTER the Father. That is why theologians speak of Him being 'eternally begotten'. The language of 'begetting' is to bring out that the Father and Son share the same nature and being. It must not be forced.
If the SON already WAS in the beginning with the Father, He could NOT have been begotten of the Father in any human sense. In human terms what is begotten comes AFTER its begetter. But if the SON was already in existence with the Father before there was a beginning, He is not begotten AFTER the Father. That is why theologians speak of Him being 'eternally begotten'. The language of 'begetting' is to bring out that the Father and Son share the same nature and being. It must not be forced.
Wasn't Dave I quoted.............
should have put that in.......didn't see it missing......Valiant was the one quotedActually you are incorrect. The words Elohim and theos have a variety of meanings. Thus in the Old Testament the 'sons of the elohim' are the angels. Strictly speaking they are not sons of GOD, they are 'of the heavens'. They are His creations. It does not mean that they are God. It means that they are like Him in being heavenly beings. Satan is never called God in Scripture. Elohim means 'heavenly beings', all beings who are not of this universe. It can mean God (when used with a singular verb), or angels, or false gods.
Jesus described Himself as THE Son. The ONLY ONE. His 'Sonship' was distinct from that of the angels. They were created. He was 'begotten', in other words He was of the same nature as the Father (that is basically what begotten means when used of Jesus).
Jesus cited the Psalm to show that people had been called 'elohim' because they were acting as God's deputies. He did not mean that they were literally divine in the full sense. Just as we are called 'sons of God' but are not divine in the fullest sense.
Yes but like you many will not see the truth.
The SON existed before the earth was created. Indeed He existed before the beginning of all things, for He is eternal.
Scripture?
we can agree at last as long as you exclude the false idea that our spirits are eternal..
You have no Scripture support for that. There are no grounds at all for even thinking it is true.
No show me it in Scripture.
Rather say the same eternal Spirit Who became Jesus Christ was the same Spirit Who created all things.
that is surmise.
When the Old Testament speaks of 'the LORD your God' the phrase includes the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit of the Son BECAME Jesus.
you are now playing with words. we have a created human spirit, not a divine eternal Spirit. You have no Scripture to support such an argument.
J
You are blurring distinctions. The eternal Spirit of the Son became man. His was a very different Spirit from ours. His was the eternal Spirit of the Son. Our spirits are created spirits.
You have no Scriptural support at all for this fantastic suggestion. It is pure fantasy. The eternal Son did not have a body until He became man when He was born into the world as Jesus.
Simple lie. Believing it is certainly a problem. It is unscriptural and untrue.
This too is incorrect. It was the Son Who created the earth and Who was made man and became Jesus through the womb of Mary
H
As long as you recognise that His Spirit was the eternal Spirit of the Son, and our spirits are created BY HIM, there is no difficulty. Jesus did NOT have a spirit like our spirits.
Yes because His was the eternal Spirit of the Son. It is not of the same essence as our spirits. His is the eternal Spirit of the Son. Ours are spirits created by Him.
By the operation of the Holy Spirit fusing the Spirit of the Son with manhood born of Mary.
Yes He was the eternal Spirit of the Son, from everlasting to everlasting. And HE became man.
But this has nothing to do with our spirits which are spirits created by HIM.
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If you think this fails it simply means that like Disciple Dave you do not understand the Triune God
but then if you are one of the three stooges I can understand that.
If the Father is invisible, and has no image, because He is Spirit, how do you say and teach that He has an image? Humans are made in the image of Jesus Christ, NOT the Father, who has no image, who has no form, who is no physical, nor has any shape, He is Spirit. Jesus is physical, Jesus has a form, Jesus has a Glorified Body, Jesus has shape. We are made in the image of Jesus.
If i say to you "if you have seen my son, you have seen me. Am i then saying my son IS ME? You interpret that verse to mean something other than what it is saying. You interpret that verse to mean Jesus is saying He IS the Father. You do error. Here is a perfect example of taking verses out of context to fit your own belief.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
You read this and believe and teach this verse means that Jesus IS the Father, yet the very next verse explains the previous verse perfectly.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
There you have it, the Truth, The Father was IN Jesus, not as you teach, that Jesus IS the Father. Anyone who teaches Jesus is His Father, does error and does not know the Truth, and anyone who teaches that, is teaching false doctrines. All the Gospels PLAINLY teach that Jesus has a Father. They do NOT teach Jesus is the FATHER.
Hearken unto me all those who read this. Do not listen to anyone who teaches that Jesus and the Father in Heaven are the same person, that Jesus is the Father. They do not know the Truth and are trying to deceive you into believing something that is contrary to all of the Gospels, and the worst part of it is, they really believe what they are teaching even though that same belief contradicts HUNDREDS of verses. Believe them not.
^i^ Responding to Post # 197
dcontroversal you liked this, but then tell me that i am wrong saying Jesus is NOT the Father. That is what the above picture is saying and teaching. So if i say Jesus is not the Father, you debate me on that, but if a picture shows Jesus is not the Father, that you like. Can you explain that, i am ignorant to why you have done this.
^i^ Responding to Post #198
You do not disagree with me, but with Him who told me the Truth concerning this topic.
^i^ Responding to post 201
And i have not said otherwise.
If i have contradicted myself, then please show where i have done that. i have plainly stated over and over again, that there is the Father, there is the Son Jesus, and there is the Holy Ghost. These three are ONE, just as a husband and a wife are ONE. Understand how a husband and wife are called ONE, then you will understand also how the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is also ONE. And how we can be ONE with them. And by what you are saying above, you seem to be thinking that i have come up with what i teach based on what i read. That is incorrect, what i teach is what God told me to teach, what i teach is not from my own studies of the Word, not from my own intelligence, not from my own interpretations, but i merely teach what God told me to teach.
Before anything was created, there was the Father. The Father is spirit, has no form, no shape, no flesh, no substance, no Matter, no molucules, no atoms, no electrons, no protons. SPIRIT. That Father beget Jesus Christ, His ONLY begotten Son, That Jesus Christ was flesh, was physical, had a form, had a shape, had molecules, atoms, and electrons. Jesus Christ was in the beginning with the Father. When the Father begat Jesus, He was the Son of God, the first begotten of that Father. Jesus then created all things that were MADE, all things physical, all things tangible. This is the Truth. And just because it contradicts what this generation believes to be True, does not mean it is false. It does not contradict Scriptures at all.
Jesus did not create the Father. Jesus did not begat the Father. Jesus did not conjure up the Father. The Father existed before the Son was begotten. The Father was FIRST, then Jesus being the son, was begotten AFTER that. What is so hard to understand this concept with this generation. The Father begets the son. The son comes AFTER the Father, the Father is First then the son comes after. Jesus is the Son, He is after the Father. The Father is First, the Father begat Jesus Christ as His Only begotten Son. Jesus is the Son of God, the Son of the Father. The Father is God, Jesus is God as well because He is begotten of that Father, we are gods as well, because we are children of God, we are His offspring, that is what the old testament teaches, "ye are gods" that is why the new testament teaches that as well. Jesus created all things that were MADE. the Father was never MADE, the Father is Spirit, NOT makeable. The Father who Scriptures testifies to, is greater than Jesus Christ, because it was the Father who made Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ then made all things that were MADE. This is the Truth, this is what God told me, and God is right.
Sorry but you do not understand the Truth. No man has seen the Father at any time. When God walked in the Garden of Eden and spoke with Adam and Eve, that was not the Father, that was the Son of God, the LORD thy God, it was Jesus Christ. Man has seen God (Jesus) no man has ever seen the Father, EVER. Man has only seen the Son of God, NEVER the Father at any time. You do error not understanding How Jesus is the Son of the Father, separate, Yes they are ONE, just as a husband and wife are separate, but they are ONE. It is written that the Father and Jesus are ONE, Jesus also teaches that we are ONE with them (plural) There is the Father, there is the Son called Jesus, there is the Holy Ghost, there is me, and we are all ONE. You, if you abide in Him, are ONE with us.
Just because you say something is True, is NOT demonstrating that it is True.
The Father was in Heaven, Jesus His Son was in Heaven also. The Father sent Jesus, His Son to the Earth, please read the many verses where Jesus plainly testifies, that His Father SENT Him. This Generation teaches that the Father turned into Jesus and came down to the Earth. The Word of God plainly teaches that the Father SENT His Son Jesus Christ to the Earth, leave it to this generation to corrupt the simple Truth of all the Scriptures that plainly teach that the Father of Jesus sent Jesus to the Earth. And Jesus testifies over and over again that He has a Father, NOT that He is the Father. But leave it to this wicked generation to corrupt the Scriptures through their own interpretations. The Father sent His Son, that is what Scriptures plainly teach numerous times, that even children can understand that Truth.
Jesus teaches that HIs Father SENT Him. Tell me this last days generation, Did the Father send His son Jesus? Or did the Father become man in the flesh and is called Jesus? Believe the Word of God and not the words of men.
Here is the Truth. The Father begat Jesus Christ, Jesus created the Universe and all the angels in Heaven, Jesus created the Kingdom of Heaven for the angels in which He created. one angel called lucifer created sin, sin was born in him, satan and all the angels that followed him, were cast out of Heaven, The Father then instructs Jesus and the Holy ghost to create the Earth and to create flesh in Jesus image out of that Earth. 4,000 Years later, Jesus the Son became flesh, walked with man in whom He created in the beginning of the Earth, He Prayed to His Father in Heaven, because His Father was in Heaven and He was on the Earth, with the humans. Jesus the creator of the entire universe lowered Himself and became a human being on the Earth, to be a perfect sacrifice for us. The Father allowed His Son to do this for us, because the Father loves us that much, the Father in Heaven, sent (SENT) His beloved Son, whom He loved and created, to the Earth to be killed for us pathetic humans. Jesus the Son of that same Father, chose to become a human, because He, like His Father, LOVES us. Jesus then taught all the humans, about His Father in Heaven, how He existed, How He was REAL. And He taught us that He was the Son of that Father in Heaven. Jesus was then crucified and He rose from the dead and received His Glorified body back again, the same Glorified body that He has always had, a Body made from Heaven, not a body made from the Earth. Any flesh that is made from the Earth is bound to the confines of the Earth. that is why flesh and blood will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, When we get our Glorified bodies, it will be bodies made up of Heaven, never aging, never dying, immortal. Jesus when He went back to Heaven, was Himself again, the same Jesus that existed prior to anything being created. please i beg you all to read this article, which God told me, and is True. The Meaning of Life.
Jesus did not Rule at all while on Earth, Jesus was NOT King of Kings. Jesus did not conquer all His enemies, Kings did not bow down to Jesus. Jesus did not come in the flesh to Rule, from Earth or from Heaven, HE came to teach us about His Father, and how to be SAVED, He came to Earth, not to rule, but to be sacrificed. Now when He comes the second time, it will be to RULE, to be the King of Kings, and every knee shall bow and serve Him.
What i believe is what God told me, and i tell you. you do not believe because you do not believe the Truth in Which He told me. Those who have the Holy Ghost, will know the Truth when they hear it, for the Holy Spirit of God will reveal to them that it is True. What i have told you does not contradict Scriptures at all, But you do not believe me, because you do not know the Truth, if you did not know the Truth, then you would know it when you heard it, but when you hear the Truth, which He told me, you do not believe. The Father in Heaven, sent His only son Jesus Christ to the Earth to be Sacrificed, they are separate, the Father is greater than the Son, because the Father begat the Son. You say they are one and the same, Do did Jesus lie when He said that ONLY His Father knows the Day and the Hour in which He would send Jesus back the second time? Maybe Scriptures are True, and ONLY the Father in Heaven (NOT JESUS THE SON) knows the day and the hour in which the FATHER will send His Son a second time to the Earth.
Here is a Truth, those who believe that Jesus is the Father in Heaven, can't possibly believe the Word of God.
^i^ Responding to post #202
What this generation does not understand, is when the Bible says "in the beginning" it is not referring to the Beginning of God and Heaven. But the beginning of the Earth and humankind. The Bible was to, and for humans, NOT the inhabitants of Heaven. What this generation does not know or understand, is that there was a Kingdom of Heaven that existed an eternity before the Earth was ever created. In the Bible which is to and for Humans, when it says "In the Beginning" it is talking about the beginning of the Earth and humans, NOT the beginning of God, Angels, and Heaven. They all existed prior to the Earth ever being created. There was the Father, The Father begat Jesus Christ, His Son. Jesus created the Universe, Angels, and the Kingdom of Heaven, All angels worshiped the Father AND Jesus the Son of God, they did this for an eternity x an eternity. Then sin was born in one of the Angels, and because of that sin, The Earth was created, IN THE BEGINNING. and humans were then created as well. In the Bible, written to humans, when it says in the beginning, it is NOT referring to the beginning of God, NOT the beginning of the Kingdom of Heaven, when the our (human) Bible says in the Beginning, it is referring to the beginning of Earth and the human race. If you want to see how it all went down and why humans had to be created in the first place, and the whole purpose we are all here on this Earth, then read this article The Meaning of Life.
^i^ Responding to Post 205
Indeed:
In the begining Lord you laid the foundations of the earth......
Heb 1:10
You know what you seem to add and lie quite often....I NEVER said anything about what YOU posted..ALL I did was QUOTE scripture.....I suggest you quit being like your daddy and ADDING words where words WERE NOTspoken and your argument is with GOD not me...Hebrews states CLEARLY that JESUS is the express ICON of the invisble FATHER.....to be quite frank, you have consistently proven that you miss the mark on many things.....if you are going to continue to add words that I did not say and or LIE about what I did say then do not respond to me.......!
Greetings friends and peace be with you in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, 'dear valiant' and to everyone and to those who already know 'Grace and Truth' of the written New Covenant/Testament.
Holy Scripture teaches us that JESUS had a beginning and came from GOD who have always existed. In what 'form' JESUS was created and HIS 'name' and what 'title' HE was given in Heaven from the beginning, that we do not know and not necessary to know for now, but only stick to in faith as it is written according to the HOLY BIBLE.
Since when JESUS had a beginning?
In the first chapter of the Gospel of John. he 'begins' like this;
"In the beginning ............................................................................"
If he say; "Before the beginning .......................................................................", then i would consider agreeing with your 'witnessing' of the Word, yes, but therefore it is not so 'as it is written'.
In the epistle of Apostle Paul to the church of Colossians, referring from chapter 1 and verse 15, he says;
"HE is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn of all creation."
One may also continue to read other verses as well, for they 'inspires' the 'spirit-man'.
In human term 'firstborn' means the 'first' child to come out of 'mommy's tummy'.
Before GOD created anything at all, HE created first someone to be in 'HIS image', a 'visible' being in the Heavenly 'spiritual realm'(who later was born as a man-child to Joseph and Mary, called 'JESUS of Nazareth', who finally gave the New Testament/Covenant of GOD to HIS present redeemed people).
Then 'by HIM(JESUS)' and 'for HIM(JESUS)', GOD therefore created all other things (even Lucifer), that was initially in GOD's 'mind' and 'plan' to create 'with'.
i repeat once again, 'by HIS SON and for HIS SON from the beginning of HIS life'. What a deserving privilege whom GOD is well pleased with and calls JESUS as HIS only begotten, in HIS 'audible' voice from Heaven 'witnessing' to HIS disciples, who later gave their lives to 'witness' these to us and over the years the 'reformers' who gave their lives too just to 'translate' these for us, to be 'taught' and to 'know' and to 'remember', all of these we have received and only receive through;
'Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound.
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found.
Was blind but now I see. ..................'
Wow, isn't these 'amazing' and 'inspiring' to our 'spirit' for i myself am 'joyed' in sharing this, in 'service' to you all?
GOD's blessing to be thankful for in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST, even in the 'expense' of friend 'valiant', who is the 'initiator' to these revelation.
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Friend, I am not even going to argue over this but with an Israeli flag hopefully your Hebrew is not as bad as mine
so consider the following (I don't have the link to the website anymore):The first three letters of Torah are BEIT, RESH and ALEF. These spell the verb "create" and the noun "Creator" in Hebrew.
My old mentor Rabbi Moyal (an Orthodox Rabbi from Israel who had accepted Yeshua as the Messiah) taught me that the Three Pillars of the Godhead are represented by these three letters:
BEIT is the first letter of BEN (Son)
RESH is the first letter of RUACH (Spirit)
ALEF is the first letter of ABBA (Father)
The Creator is the BEIT, RESH and ALEF.
There is another way of looking at the trinity. It is a model like any other but which emphasis some important ideas.
Anything that is eternal, from eternity into eternity is part of God.
Jesus is Gods message to mankind, his word, the thing he intends, his essense, spoken forward into human form.
The muslims talk about the Koran as Gods message, but it is a book, Jesus was a living being.
Because Jesus is eternal he is God.
God works with people through His Spirit, his eternal presence, his communion with the souls of those who are part of his people.
Now if the Word Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have self consciousness, ie able to act and make decisions on their own, they are not the Father in the modal ideal, one God, flitting between 3 expressions, but the trinity.
Now however we talk about the Lord, it can only be as we experience Him, because he is beyond our language or definitions.
We know from Jesus words, he had independent will, he chose to do the Fathers will, yet he knew from eternity where he had come from and where he was going, but he was not able to say what the Father would do with his deciples, who would sit where, when judgment would come etc. So it a modal sense he was not the Father, but as he said, if you had met him you had met the Father.
The trinity matters because Jesus has to be the expression of the Father, his nature, his eternity, his desire for the cross to be the glory that it is. It is his eternal promise, his forgiveness, his desire to regain our trust, to show no matter how nuts and crap we are, he can meet us there and bring us back, if we are willing to follow.
Look at church history, and you will see this message is so so so hard for people to accept, even christians, because it is saying you have to change, to become something you do not know, but you need to trust me. Pride wants to say, no I refuse to let others tell me what to do, or to be less and they more.
I look back at myself and wonder why I did not see the obvious. But it is because I was trying desperately to hold myself together not realising the layers that needed slowly releasing within. I literally thought I knew it all. Interlectually maybe, but in my spirit and soul, oh so very little.
Anything that is eternal, from eternity into eternity is part of God.
Jesus is Gods message to mankind, his word, the thing he intends, his essense, spoken forward into human form.
The muslims talk about the Koran as Gods message, but it is a book, Jesus was a living being.
Because Jesus is eternal he is God.
God works with people through His Spirit, his eternal presence, his communion with the souls of those who are part of his people.
Now if the Word Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have self consciousness, ie able to act and make decisions on their own, they are not the Father in the modal ideal, one God, flitting between 3 expressions, but the trinity.
Now however we talk about the Lord, it can only be as we experience Him, because he is beyond our language or definitions.
We know from Jesus words, he had independent will, he chose to do the Fathers will, yet he knew from eternity where he had come from and where he was going, but he was not able to say what the Father would do with his deciples, who would sit where, when judgment would come etc. So it a modal sense he was not the Father, but as he said, if you had met him you had met the Father.
The trinity matters because Jesus has to be the expression of the Father, his nature, his eternity, his desire for the cross to be the glory that it is. It is his eternal promise, his forgiveness, his desire to regain our trust, to show no matter how nuts and crap we are, he can meet us there and bring us back, if we are willing to follow.
Look at church history, and you will see this message is so so so hard for people to accept, even christians, because it is saying you have to change, to become something you do not know, but you need to trust me. Pride wants to say, no I refuse to let others tell me what to do, or to be less and they more.
I look back at myself and wonder why I did not see the obvious. But it is because I was trying desperately to hold myself together not realising the layers that needed slowly releasing within. I literally thought I knew it all. Interlectually maybe, but in my spirit and soul, oh so very little.
Friend, I am not even going to argue over this but with an Israeli flag hopefully your Hebrew is not as bad as mine
The first three letters of Torah are BEIT, RESH and ALEF. These spell the verb "create" and the noun "Creator" in Hebrew.
My old mentor Rabbi Moyal (an Orthodox Rabbi from Israel who had accepted Yeshua as the Messiah) taught me that the Three Pillars of the Godhead are represented by these three letters:
BEIT is the first letter of BEN (Son)
RESH is the first letter of RUACH (Spirit)
ALEF is the first letter of ABBA (Father)
The Creator is the BEIT, RESH and ALEF.
Friend, you don't have to argue, if you have an argumentative character. Therefore can you please first of all, read again Colossians 1;15end, that refers to JESUS and says so Apostle Paul, that;
"........................................................., the 'firstborn' of all creation."
What does 'firstborn' mean?