Catholic Heresy (for the record)

[valiant]

Why do i believe Catholicism? It was and still is the Churh Jesus Chist founded. that is fact

No that is the big lie. Roman Catholicism began around 700 AD. Before then churches were still semi-independent. But even then they had been corrupted by the machinations of the Roman emperors who turned the church pagan.

The true church which Jesus Christ founded was made up of thousands of independent churches under their own leadership appointed by the Apostles. And while the Apostles taught them and guided them they never sought to lord it over them. There was no hierarchy. They were guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[KenAllan]

Mwc68 you said "every Catholic doctrine is scriptural".

Where in the Scriptures mwc68 does God say Mary was without sin?

Romans 3:9-12
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."


Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Hebrews 4:15 (NKJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.

Now mwc68, show me where in the Scriptures God says Mary was "without sin"?

Its not in the Scriptures.

This proves mwc68 that the Doctrine of Mary being sinless is not from God but is from Satan!

Jesus Christ did not create the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church was not around at the time Paul was in Rome. Nowhere in any writings of Paul did He ever mention there was a Church in Rome called the Catholic Church. In fact Peter was not given the task to bring the Gospel to the gentiles. Peter was used by God to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people. Paul had the task of bring the Gospel to the gentiles. It was Paul not Peter that God sent to Rome.

Galatians 2:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man--for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
[SUP]8 [/SUP]for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles

God shows no personal favoritism to Peter. Paul was equal to Peter in the eyes of God. Paul was used to bring the Gospel to the uncircumcised which are the gentiles which are the people in Rome. Peter was used to bring the Gospel to the circumcised which are the Jewish people.

Therefore the person who God sent to Rome was Paul and not Peter. The Catholic teaching that Peter went to Rome is not from God but is from Satan. You Catholics have spent thousands of years listening to Satan instead of following God.

I present a challenge to you mwc68, show me where in the Scriptures did God ever say Mary was without sin? I presented this same challenge to mattp0625. In fact i give this challenge to the Pope Francis himself to show proof that God said Mary was without sin!

 

[WillyWally]

I don't think God has been in the business of talking to people since the old days, when he was telling Moses to get about a bit of genocide, and he certainly has never said anything about Mary, at least not to mere mortals.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if some here believe they have had personal information from Him.

But Ignatius of Antioch does mention a 'Catholic Church' in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans around 110AD. That's a long way before 700AD.

 

[valiant]

I don't think God has been in the business of talking to people since the old days, when he was telling Moses to get about a bit of genocide, and he certainly has never said anything about Mary, at least not to mere mortals.
I wouldn't be surprised, however, if some here believe they have had personal information from Him.

But Ignatius of Antioch does mention a 'Catholic Church' in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans around 110AD. That's a long way before 700AD.

But that is Catholic, not Roman Catholic. 'Catholic' simply means universal. In that sense we all belong to the 'Catholic (universal) church'. What we eschew is the ROMAN Catholic church with its heresies. That hierarchical church was founded after 700 AD

In the second century all churches in main cities were independent. They 'oversaw' (episkopos) themselves. And they were all members of the universal (catholikos) church. That church was as different from the Roman Catholic church as it could possibly be.

 

[MikeHenderson]

So very true Valiant.

In fact all the Doctrines about Mary started to show up in the 1800's, not in the 1st century like the corrupted Catholics teach!

 

[SAVAS]

What was the tradition given to Thessalonians? You have yet to answer that question.

He talks about works, prayer and idleness in 2 Thess. Here is an example of oral tradition so its not written down. Oral tradition is manifested in the life church, liturgical worship, baptism, marriage, prayer, fasting etc and doing these things in a certain manner prescribed by Christ, passed down to the Apostles, their succorssors and so on.

 

[fordman]

That is why GOD FORBADE graven images.

Tell that to the Jews in the Old Testament when God gave them instructions to build the tabernacle. oooooh so graven.
You seem to be forgetting about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.
So Pop's....The Bible doesn't say not to make the images...it says not to make them for the purpose of worshiping them.

Take a look at this picture:

Yes, I've see it many times. So??????

You want outsiders to think you are 'venerating' when what you are doing is worshiping. BUT ALL GRAVEN IMAGES ARE FORBIDDEN FOR THAT REASON. Thus every graven image in your churches, whether of Mary, Jesus or the saints is CONTRARY TO GOD'S LAW.

Lol!!!! You are a real Bob Hope!! Lol! We Catholics could care less what you call "outsiders" think. Besides Pop's, many Protestants/non-Catholics have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas. Do you display a nativity at Christmas?

Don't try and tell me that Big Daddy is just looking at the statue so that it will remind him of Mary. He is worshiping before it. You may doubt it, but others won't

So Pop's, let me ask, when did you receive this power of being able to read one's mind, or know whats in their heart? Just by seeing a photograph no less!!! If you know what JPII is thinking just by looking at this pic. then maybe you can tell me what I'm thinking just by reading my post! I mean come on Pop's, don't you see how doltish that sounds??

You are giving to Mary what is God's alone, however you dress it up. I don't buy your distinctions. Nor do others. The majority of Roman Catholic worshipers are not so sophisticated. LOL Big Daddy even says 'in you I put all my hope of salvation'. Sounds more than 'veneration' to me. You just play with words.

Nope....and you have yet to prove it.
Besides pop's..take this in consideration. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king/queen without worshipping him as a god. (you Brits don't consider your queen as a god when you bow down to her do you?)In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it. Have you ever prayed with a bible in "your" hands??

That is called wishful thinking. The honour your worshipers pay to Mary diminishes from the glory of the Father's divine Son.

Again, your trying to mind read. All you have shown is private speculation.....nothing more. Lol!

I note you ignored Francis Liguori's prayer which was published in a book for use in worship which carried the imprimatur. Even you cannot apply your specious arguments to that prayer unless you close your eyes to much of what he said.

I've ignored nada pop's. The burden of proof falls upon you. I have yet to see where you have proven that what you posted has the the stamp of imprimatur. Heck Pop's, I tried to make it easy for ya. I could have said for you to show where the Magisterium tells us too worship Mary.
Now I've noticed you haven't shown where the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us to put Mary at the same level as God , and we are to worship her... how come? Seems to me that would be the first place you'd have gone!

Pax Christi

"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ----Luke 1:48

 

[SAVAS]

Not another mad man? The Roman Catholic church did not even exist when the Scriptures were decided. The Roman church (in distinction from the Roman Catholic church) was previously a regional church with no authority outside its sphere.

Your wrong valiant. The Church of Rome was "The first among equals" along with Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople.

The present Roman Catholic church is a sham built on bloodshed, political force and sexual immorality. It doesn't even know what spirituality means.

Your judgments still running rampid? At least your consistent.

Actually Jesus gave us a book. He had no time for tradition. He said 'you make the Word of God void through your tradition'. And that is exactly what the heretical Roman Catholic church is built on. Pagan tradition introduced by Constantine.

Oh I get it, the Holy Spirit inspired men to write it later....right? The Godman never dispersed any written document brother, THATS what wasn't important. And when he speaks of Tradition, he's talking about the OT law. Christ came and established a new Holy Tradition

The Roman Catholic church is the big lie, a political masquerade. The church which Christ built on His Messiahship as the Son of the living God is the true church, made up of all those who have truly put saving faith in in Jesus Christ, the kind of people the Roman Catholic church persecuted and burnt through the centuries..

LOL Messiahship? Nice valiant. Are you speaking of the crusades? Yes, that was bad.

Im trying to break up quotes, hope it works

 

[valiant]

He talks about works, prayer and idleness in 2 Thess. Here is an example of oral tradition so its not written down. Oral tradition is manifested in the life church, liturgical worship, baptism, marriage, prayer, fasting etc and doing these things in a certain manner prescribed by Christ, passed down to the Apostles, their succorssors and so on.

works, prayer and avoiding idleness were not oral tradition. Firstly they are not doctrine, and secondly they were clearly taught in the Old Testament Scriptures. In the New Testament different churches worshiped in different ways with no Bog Daddy breathing down their necks. In the New Testament baptism was simply a matter of going down into water and having and being submerged in it in the Name of Jesus (or of the Triune God). There was no special liturgy. As far as we know marriage was a contract between two families called a betrothal, with a seven day celebration taking place when the time come. Oaths had already been made when the betrothal took place. Whether different areas followed different methods we do not know but it is not part of being a Christian. All that matters is that local law is satisfied and the married could dedicated to God. Fasting is nowhere taught as necessary for Christians in the New Testament in the original Greek manuscripts.

None of these things were ritualised in the early church. They were certainly not passed down in oral tradition. Christians were free to follow their own customs. You have absolutely NO PROOF at all that the Apostles passed on supposed liturgies about these things. It is all in your mind. And certainly there is no hint that they passed on anything to 'successors'. That is church gobbledegook.

 

[mattp0625]

Crusades actually drove back the Ottoman Empire that previously invaded and killed pilgrims

 

[valiant]

Tell that to the Jews in the Old Testament when God gave them instructions to build the tabernacle. oooooh so graven.

Give me one instance in the instructions for the making of the Tabernacle where a graven image visible to the worshipers was made. The cherubim at each side of the mercy seat were not visible to the worshipers. They were never seen by anyone except the High Priest once a year and then only in the thick darkness.

Solomon's Temple was half pagan, being constructed contrary to God's requirement, by a half pagan architect working for a pagan king of Tyre with pagan free standing pillars. It was NOT constructed in accordance with God's pattern. Even then it certainly had no human images in it..

You seem to be forgetting about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues.

I do not know of them. All you have to do is provide some references.

So Pop's....The Bible doesn't say not to make the images...it says not to make them for the purpose of worshiping them.

It may in the Roman Catholic distortion of a Bible, but not in the true Scriptures. The commandment is quite clear, You shall not make unto yourself any graven image --- you shall not BOW DOWN to them. Let's consider some examples.

FORBIDDEN!!!!!

FOBIDDEN !!!!

Lol!!!! You are a real Bob Hope!! Lol! We Catholics could care less what you call "outsiders" think.

YOU WILL CARE WHEN YOU STAND BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE. But at least we now know where you stand. You don't care about anyone but yourselves. Thanks for admitting it.

Besides , many Protestants/non-Catholics have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children

.

But these are not graven images

Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas. Do you display a nativity at Christmas?

AND you bow down to them as others can see above. I do not approve of any images in churches whoever they are of. They pose a danger of misuse.

So, let me ask, when did you receive this power of being able to read one's mind, or know whats in their heart? Just by seeing a photograph no less!!! If you know what JPII is thinking just by looking at this pic.

The commandment said nothing about reading minds. The God Who knows men's minds forbade making graven images and especially forbade bowing down to them. But you have only to look at the adoring look of his face to know what Big Daddy is doing although it may well have been put on in order to impress the faithful.

then maybe you can tell me what I'm thinking just by reading my post! I mean come on Pop's, don't you see how doltish that sounds??

Funnily enough I probably can. But you would deny it anyway.

Besides pop's..take this in consideration. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake).

well at least you admit that Roman Catholicism and Shintoism have much in common. However, there is a great deal of difference between courtesies and activities in worship.

Similarly, a person can kneel before a king/queen without worshipping him as a god. (you Brits don't consider your queen as a god when you bow down to her do you?)

I was not aware that she was a graven image or that she was there to be 'venerated/worshiped'.

In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it,

A ROMAN Catholic kneeling in front of a statue is BOWING DOWN TO A GRAVE IMAGE. Are you seriously denying that masses of Roman Catholics pray to the statues? You must live in a world of your own.

any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it. Have you ever prayed with a bible in "your" hands??

And you wonder why I consider you stupid?

I've ignored nada pop's. The burden of proof falls upon you. I have yet to see where you have proven that what you posted has the the stamp of imprimatur. Heck Pop's, I tried to make it easy for ya. I could have said for you to show where the Magisterium tells us too worship Mary.

Of course you ignore it because you have no answer. If you had you would have produced it. You have only to consult his book to see that it has the imprimatur. But you are as dishonest about that as about everything.

Now I've noticed you haven't shown where the Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us to put Mary at the same level as God , and we are to worship her... how come? Seems to me that would be the first place you'd have gone!

I have no interest in your revised catechism which has carefully excluded what it previously had in, with the aim of trying to convince the outside world (which you admit you don't care about) that you are not as bad as your past paints.

 

[mattp0625]

There are Presbyterian ministers who are abortionists. Therefore, all Protestants support abortion!
Not really, but it's not too hard to make things up.

 

[valiant]

Your wrong valiant. The Church of Rome was "The first among equals" along with Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople.

Cited from seventh century AD SIX HUNDRED YEARS after the Apostles. You could not prove my case better. It took 600 years before the Roman church with all its political muscle was able to wring this slight concession out of churches which had become almost as heretical.

and you will note that if it was 'first among equals' with those churches it did not preside over them. No papacy was accepted. So again you have proved my point.

Oh I get it, the Holy Spirit inspired men to write it later....right? The Godman never dispersed any written document brother, THATS what wasn't important. And when he speaks of Tradition, he's talking about the OT law. Christ came and established a new Holy Tradition

If by later you mean at the hands of the Apostles , yes, the Holy Spirit inspired them to write the New Testament Scriptures. Jesus carefully groomed them for the purpose and specifically gave them a special gift received by no other so that they were led into ALL TRUTH. The tradition Christ established is found in the New Testament.

LOL Messiahship? Nice valiant. Are you speaking of the crusades? Yes, that was bad.

The crusades were on the whole the activities of land grabbing mercenaries making them an excuse for making themselves rich. Any man who fights in the name of Christ is breaking the most basic of His laws.

The true church (made up of all who have truly exercised saving faith in Christ) is founded on the fact that Jesus Christ is the One promised by the Father, the Son of the living God. They have been united with Him in His resurrection body through faith. That isn't difficult is it?

 

[valiant]

There are Presbyterian ministers who are abortionists. Therefore, all Protestants support abortion!
Not really, but it's not too hard to make things up.

But no one in the Presbyterian church makes the outstanding and blasphemous claims of your church. BUT YOU ARE CALLED ON TO SEE ALL THAT MOTHER CHURCH DOES AS ACCEPTABLE. You have to believe what Big Daddy tells you. If Big Daddy and the church are wrong then all that you claim is a MYTH.

 

[mwc68]

I see the Anti Catholic rhetoric is still strong here. Im very glad the Catholic Church does not teach me to hate on my brothers and sisters

 

[valiant]

I see the Anti Catholic rhetoric is still strong here. Im very glad the Catholic Church does not teach me to hate on my brothers and sisters

yes we are anti-Roman Catholic, for it is a distortion of the truth, the most dangerous kind of lie. But I do not hate you. I grieve for you. And I certainly find it difficult to believe that rational people can defend the idolatry and blasphemy of the Roman Catholic church. And I am not convinced that you are my brother in Christ. You are a heretic. God must judge you not me. But I will judge your church on the basis of Scripture.

However your picture says it all. A murderer in the name of Christ who uses force to advance his false church

 

[mwc68]

Wow!!!! Lot of hate there brother. I will keep praying for yall and the whole world

 

[KenAllan]

I still see NO CATHOLIC presenting any evidence from the Scriptures where God says "Mary was without sin".

Could it be that the Catholics do know that Mary was a sinner? YES! They do know for a fact that Mary was a sinner, BUT, they really do not care if God has said Mary was a sinner because they actually believe the Catholic Church is above God in Authority on the Truth.

Therefore to teach that Mary was sinless is a Mortal Sin that will keep the Catholics out of Heaven.

Showing the Truth from the Holy Spirit to the Catholics does not mean we hate the Catholics, BUT, we DO hate the evil they teach in the name of our precious Lord Jesus!

The Catholic Church lost a lot of its power when God Himself brought many of His Children out of the Catholic Church to bring the Gospel of Salvation to the World. Catholics believe its a sin to spread the Word to the World.

Mark 16:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

God told us we are to "Go into ALL the World", and to bring the Gospel of Salvation to everyone. The Catholics refused to do this because they think they are GREATER than God and do not have to follow what God says.

The Catholic Church today is powerless and has lost a lot because they have turned their backs on God to follow and Worship Mary.

Nobody today listens to the Catholic Church. No Government, no state, no powers to be, listen anymore to the Catholics. In fact many people in many countries are leaving the Catholic Church in droves.

Interesting side point is the False Prophet will arise from the Catholic Church. Could Pope Francis be the False Prophet spoken about in Revelation 16:13?

Revelation 16:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

 

[mwc68]

Nothing unclean can come into the presence of God. Revelation 20 i think. Mary could not have bore Jesus if she was a sinner. Nothing unclean can come into the presenc of God. The angel Gabriel said, Hail Mary Full of Grace!!!!! Did Gabriel lie?

 

[mwc68]

There's your example of the Great Apostasy. Your words not mine. Leaving the church in droves