Crossing the Red Sea

[WebersHome]

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Paul said that the event baptized Yhvh's people (1Cor 10:1-2) yet according
to the record, none of them got wet; not even their feet.
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[atwhatcost]

well, the way that a huge number of people could physically cross, or that a smaller number could cross, would be different, imo...

I appreciate what you said, but I did see a flaw. You assume the number was closer to 18,000 (than 3 million), because 18,000 fought that first battle. I think you're seeing a portion of the bigger number. 600,000 +/- men left Egypt. They ranged from 20 years old to at least 120 years old. (They lived longer back then.) And that was only the men.

I'm going with old guys didn't fight. Disabled didn't fight. The uncoordinated didn't fight. (If you often trip on your own foot, it's probably not a good idea to be carrying a sword.) The guys who would puke if they cut their pinky probably didn't fight. (If you puke at the sight of blood, it's probably a good idea not to go out to stab someone with a sword too.) If they were sick or weak, they didn't fight. Cowards wouldn't fight. What was left out of those 600,000 +/- men who left Egypt that day was the 18,000 men who could and would fight.

The 600,000ish was a real number. The 18,000ish was a subset of that real number and was also a real number.

 

[atwhatcost]

The History Channel once aired the "wind" explanation. They brought in a bunch of gigantic fans, and aimed them at a shallow (3 feet, I think) marsh. After a considerable time of blowing, they finally got the area relatively dry. A lot of wasted time and money, but they got people to watch.

How much money did they pay for blowing on a marsh? I could blow on a marsh! I could use the money. No fandom required, just money. lol

 

[Bowhunter2394]

the 'land ' they went over on.. could it of been an underwater bridge of some type? as a fisherman we call this 'structure'... so wide, so high... an on the sides of that Structure deeper water.. so when Moses, lifted his staff again.. the waters overcame them.. pushing them into the 'deeper water'.. as the water was brought back down on top of Pharaoh and his armies.. if its a wide path to accomodate the multitiudes of Israelites... they crossed on. then those walls would of been very high to create the force to cover them and throw them into the 'deep' this from a WIDTH perspective and the water coming back over on top of them.. albeit then the Path may have been NARROW TOO.. what did Jesus Teach? the Narrow Path to Salvation, many will seek to enter, but wont.... however wide the Path was , the dry ground, it Accomodated the Israelites in their Deliverance and Safety, and provided the 'means' by which God would Destroy Pharaoh and his armies, Israel's Enemies extinguished, sileneced.. indeed!... thoughts to ponder on..

 

[Dan_473]

That there were only 18,000 people involved in this crossing as opposed to a much larger number.

I don't think it's a matter of proof... it's how the hebrew numbers work... different ways of translating the passages...

I read it a long time ago... I think I read it in more than one place... but maybe I just dreamed it...

the other wilderness stories make more sense with the smaller number, imo...

 

[oldhermit]

I don't think it's a matter of proof... it's how the hebrew numbers work... different ways of translating the passages...

I read it a long time ago... I think I read it in more than one place... but maybe I just dreamed it...

the other wilderness stories make more sense with the smaller number, imo...

See post #122.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Does the Word give us a clue as to the time or length of Time it took the Israelites to cross on dry ground? any ideas? what does the Word tell us?

 

[Dan_473]

That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Look guys. I established the parameters of the discussion in the OP. Consider the circumstances of this event. There are most probably in the neighborhood of 3,000,000 people and the sea is at this point about 1000' in depth.

The numbers are not up for debate. Either address the physics of this event according to the parameters I have laid down or please do not engage in this discussion.

my impression was that anything in the op is a fair topic of discussion... my impression was that the number of people mattered, and that's why it was part of the op...

 

[Dan_473]

Go away valiant. All you and Dan are doing is disrupting my thread.

well, we have different ways of looking at it...

I don't see the op as the 'owner' of the thread... I've started threads in the past, but I don't see them as 'my' threads... they belong to all the people who work and contribute to make cc happen...

I see anything in the op as 'fair game'...

 

[oldhermit]

my impression was that anything in the op is a fair topic of discussion... my impression was that the number of people mattered, and that's why it was part of the op...

Well Dan, it looks like the discussion of physics related to the OP has gone about as far is it is going to go so yes, I see no reason we cannot look at the question of the numbers. Give me just a moment to respond to another post and I'll get back with you on this.

 

[oldhermit]

Does the Word give us a clue as to the time or length of Time it took the Israelites to cross on dry ground? any ideas? what does the Word tell us?

Yes, it does as a matter of fact. Notice verses 21-24. "Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. The Egyptians pursued and went in after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. And in the morning watch the Lord in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down on the Egyptian forces and threw the Egyptian forces into a panic,"

God had allowed the Wind to blow all through the night and divided the waters. Assuming tat Israel began the crossing immediately thereafter in the early daylight hours, it took them all day and most of the next night to effect the crossing because God does not allow the Egyptian army does not pursue until the morning watch of the next day. So this took some time.

 

[atwhatcost]

well the description 'walls of water' could mean a hundred things. It simply means that there was water on both sides. The gap had to be a large one in order for the people to cross. Possibly a mile or more wide. The account was not intended to describe how God did it. The Israelites experienced the wind, and saw a huge pathway open. They did not analyse it. Nor did they know what happened upstream and downstream. Nor do we.

I am not saying that God did not work a miracle. I am simply suggesting that it is unwise to exaggerate it. God didn't.

Remember that God did not need to use a wind. Why did He?

If you really could create a whole universe, how would you exaggerate? God doesn't need to exaggerate at all. If he wants it, he does it. Our problem is more of wanting to understand the whole universe through a microscope. We tend to face the wrong way to understand it, and it's much bigger than what we see. I really would like God to explain in bigger picture ways, but I don't see the smaller picture clear enough to assume I'd understand the bigger picture.

What he does explain is fact. He says there were walls of water. There were walls of water. That's not exaggerating, that's just giving us some room to try and picture it. Isn't that what we're trying to do together -- picture it?

Let's not go with "my picture is God's picture, so don't disagree." If any blaming needs to happen, it's what we're picturing, not God. If we reason together maybe we can get a little more out of that microscope.

 

[atwhatcost]

Actually a foot would do if a restricted Red sea burst through and flooded the area.

Try drowning a horse in a foot of water. For that matter, try drowning a man in a foot of water. Neither is giving in that easily.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Yes, it does as a matter of fact. Notice verses 21-24. "Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. The Egyptians pursued and went in after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. And in the morning watch the Lord in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down on the Egyptian forces and threw the Egyptian forces into a panic,"

God had allowed the Wind to blow all through the night and divided the waters. Assuming tat Israel began the crossing immediately thereafter in the early daylight hours, it took them all day and most of the next night to effect the crossing because God does not allow the Egyptian army does not pursue until the morning watch of the next day. So this took some time.

From a physics standpoint, with those #'s of people.. wow. .they would have to be moving quickly... mmmm makes you wonder know how really WIDE the dry seabed was.. how does that Play into the Miracle of God.. mmmmm a Wider track would allow MORE to cross over in a shorter amount of time, physically, and from a physics standpoint this make sense, but then Again we are dealing with a Supernatural Event, the trumps Physics.. back then they had no mode of transportatioin like we have today.. interesting.. Did God Himself give them Supernatural Help in traveling on the dry seabed for that short amount of time.. this depends on How many ISREALITES are travelling.. from a physics standpoint, one would say wide and broad, but then again. Narrow is the way.. with Supernatural Help! good things to ponder on.

 

[oldhermit]

From a physics standpoint, with those #'s of people.. wow. .they would have to be moving quickly... mmmm makes you wonder know how really WIDE the dry seabed was.. how does that Play into the Miracle of God.. mmmmm a Wider track would allow MORE to cross over in a shorter amount of time, physically, and from a physics standpoint this make sense, but then Again we are dealing with a Supernatural Event, the trumps Physics.. back then they had no mode of transportatioin like we have today.. interesting.. Did God Himself give them Supernatural Help in traveling on the dry seabed for that short amount of time.. this depends on How many ISREALITES are travelling.. from a physics standpoint, one would say wide and broad, but then again. Narrow is the way.. with Supernatural Help! good things to ponder on.

A heard of cattle moving across country can average about 8-10 miles in a day - from daylight to dark. According the the text, Israel had considerably longer than 10 hours to traverse the distance of the crossing. Obviously, they could not travel faster than the slowest members of the group which would have probably been the herds. The time element was not really that much of a factor. God was not going to allow Egypt to follow until they were out of reach.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Yes, it does as a matter of fact. Notice verses 21-24. "Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. The Egyptians pursued and went in after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. And in the morning watch the Lord in the pillar of fire and of cloud looked down on the Egyptian forces and threw the Egyptian forces into a panic,"

God had allowed the Wind to blow all through the night and divided the waters. Assuming tat Israel began the crossing immediately thereafter in the early daylight hours, it took them all day and most of the next night to effect the crossing because God does not allow the Egyptian army does not pursue until the morning watch of the next day. So this took some time.

Interesting, we always look at it from our point of view when it comes to how people travelled and got around.. lot harder back then ......they never had F 150's or Chevy's or Turbo Diesels back then. lolz. oh how we are so spoiled .. now... Oxen, carts, horses, some chariots I would imagine , a mass Exodus, from the sky it would look a bunch of Ants. slowly moving along! indeed..

 

[Bowhunter2394]

A heard of cattle moving across country can average about 8-10 miles in a day - from daylight to dark. According the the text, Israel had considerably longer than 10 hours to traverse the distance of the crossing. Obviously, they could not travel faster than the slowest members of the group which would have probably been the herds. The time element was not really that much of a factor. God was not going to allow Egypt to follow until they were out of reach.

True one has to consider the 'distance from shore to shore' also.... a shorter distance, less time.. God KNEW exactly where He wanted them to Cross, cause He was the one that Placed them there... yep.. Sometimes we find ourselves in a tight spot or under alot of pressure in our lives, others see it, point the finger, its your sin! that got you there, or you weren't 'faithful' enough.. lolz.. these NOT understanding that It May be God who put you in that Situation, to show His Hand of Salvation in your life and His Indignation towards His enemies, those that persecute you.. indeed!

 

[oldhermit]

my impression was that anything in the op is a fair topic of discussion... my impression was that the number of people mattered, and that's why it was part of the op...

Okay, am I correct in assuming that you are questioning how I arrived at the figure of 3,000,000 people, plus or minus?

 

[atwhatcost]

Perhaps it is your understanding which is at fault? I have agreed with everything that the Scripture says. What I seek to do is try to understand it in the light of what it said and my knowledge of the area.

Show me one Scripture I have contradicted

Valiant, since you asked.

'Dry ground' means that the water had gone, not that the land was completely dry. Indeed the land could not have been so dry for it enmeshed the Egyptian chariots and horsemen. How high is a wall? 3 feet ? 6 feet? I did not suggest that the water was not relatively deep. It was not a ford. But I do not accept that it was 1000 feet deep.

Here's an example of where you believe the Bible is wrong, while defending your position that you believe whatever the Bible says is right.

You've conjectured dry land doesn't mean dry land.

there are many different kinds of winds, and if water was pushed off to make dry land there would naturally be 'walls' of water on each side. no one is suggesting that it was a normal simple wind on a flat piece of water. But in my experience God uses natural means to perform His miracles when He can. Certainly the crossing of the Jordan can be explained by natural means.

Here you compare crossing a river to crossing a sea.

well the description 'walls of water' could mean a hundred things. It simply means that there was water on both sides. The gap had to be a large one in order for the people to cross. Possibly a mile or more wide. The account was not intended to describe how God did it. The Israelites experienced the wind, and saw a huge pathway open. They did not analyse it. Nor did they know what happened upstream and downstream. Nor do we.

I am not saying that God did not work a miracle. I am simply suggesting that it is unwise to exaggerate it. God didn't.

Remember that God did not need to use a wind. Why did He?

Here you decided "'walls of water' could mean a hundred different things."

Please stop blaming others as if you alone know God's word, while proving again and again, you're not all that sure it is God's word.

Since you asked.

 

[valiant]

I don't think it's a matter of proof... it's how the hebrew numbers work... different ways of translating the passages...

I read it a long time ago... I think I read it in more than one place... but maybe I just dreamed it...

the other wilderness stories make more sense with the smaller number, imo...

I suspect you are talking about the fact that 'lph can mean a thousand, a sub-clan, or a chieftain. Thus 600 'lph of men could mean 600 sub-clans. Taking a sub-clan as thirty adult men that would mean 18000 men.