Someone PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one to think this!

[p_rehbein]

I suppose the question is: how many Covenants are there today? How many result in salvation?

ALL unbelievers are under the Old Covenant, not just the Jews.

Again, I am not a "replacement person". I don't believe that the Church replaced Israel.
Instead, I believe that Israel was always the Church, and remains so to this day.

I see that there was a conditional Covenant, the conditions of which were broken by men,
therefore God made a New Covenant which could not be broken by men.

There is only one Vine, and one Salvation. If Israel had/has salvation, then it was/is the same one that we have: by Grace, through Faith, not of works.

You see, all of Israel will be saved,
but not all who claim to be Israel are truly of Israel,
just as, not all who claim to be children of Abraham are truly children of Abraham.

Genetics was never the mechanism behind election. The children spoken of in the Promises were not by flesh, but by faith. We are not false sons and daughters, but true. Peter makes this very clear.

If I understand the totality of your comment, then I agree.........except for a couple of points.

You said: ALL unbelievers are under the Old Covenant, not just the Jews.

With the establishment of God's Salvation Plan for mankind, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the New Covenant Grace, unbelievers are subject to this Covenant. Numerous Scriptures that show this to be true in my opinion.

Salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ............no other way. (I think this is what you are saying)

You said: Again, I am not a "replacement person". I don't believe that the Church replaced Israel.
Instead, I believe that Israel was always the Church, and remains so to this day.

The Nation of Israel was/is real and did/does exist. The Church is different from the Nation of Israel in my opinion. Must needs be, otherwise there would have been no need for a New Covenant, or the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now, if you are saying that those who were found justified from the days before the establishment of the New Covenant Grace are part of the Church, in that they have received eternal life, then ok, but the Nation of Israel which encompasses all Jews who ever lived have not been found justified, and are not part of the Church in my opinion.

Within this definition.............all Israel (meaning all Jews who ever lived or are alive) will not inherit eternal life. Someone quoted Romans, Chapter 11, and this is a good example to quote, but must be understood as well........one particular little blurb from this Chapter is oft times overlooked or simply ignored........that being:

Romans 11:21 .) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 .) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 .) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Those citizens of Israel who died in their unbelief............and those today who will die in their unbelief..........that being their rejecting of Jesus Christ will not be grafted back in if we are to believe what the Apostle said here.

Now, just my thoughts here...........but this is how I read Scripture, and folks can label it as they wish, it's fine with me.

First Covenant: Law -- God's chosen people were the Nation of Israel

New Covenant: Grace -- God's chosen people are the Church, the Bride of Christ bought and paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and through Him is the ONLY way to eternal life.

And I think this is what you are saying...........except for a couple of points that I mentioned..........

 

[sltaylor]

Israel isn't replaced.
Romans 11:16-32 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [SUP]27[/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [SUP]28 [/SUP]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [SUP]31 [/SUP]Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And let's not forget there's evidence in scripture that says at least 144,000 of them will be saved.

Hey stephen, yeah sorry about that wording, I was not implying Israel was replaced sorry. In that case, I was specifically talking about on the grafting of the tree. He removed them so we could be put in. And you are correct. They will be grafted back in. It was prophesied by Moses God would make them envious through us, but once they see the salvation that is Christ, they will come home to the tree. The nation Israel is Israel, because of being a part of the tree, from Christ, the whole name is derived. They are not simply Israel by name, but they ARE Israel, by being a piece of the tree, which is Supported by Christ. The tree is the Israel of God, natural and grafted alike. There is no other holy, chosen nation that scripture Speaks of, there is only one, and the only Israel of God, is the whole community, supported by Christ. Yes we are Cgristains, but heaven isn't simply called heaven, there's still a state and City with members dwelling there. It's still Jerusalem, and it's still Israel, and now through Christ we may all be the family, and members, and citizens of God's Holy city, the one built by his hand, the one true promised land that Abraham and his seed were promised. Sorry for making it seem like I was saying we completely replaced Israel. I would never say that. All Israel will be saved for sure, all I meant was is that for now, we are on the tree and they are not. But they will be. But only after they are made envious of our reward, and I'm not sure they are envious, they still think we are wrong. This is what Paul quoted, and will come to pass, then they will be saved. The song of Moses:
Deuteronomy 32:21*"They made me jealous*by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols.*I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding."*

 

[sltaylor]

If I understand the totality of your comment, then I agree.........except for a couple of points.

You said: ALL unbelievers are under the Old Covenant, not just the Jews.

With the establishment of God's Salvation Plan for mankind, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the New Covenant Grace, unbelievers are subject to this Covenant. Numerous Scriptures that show this to be true in my opinion.

Salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ............no other way. (I think this is what you are saying)

You said: Again, I am not a "replacement person". I don't believe that the Church replaced Israel.
Instead, I believe that Israel was always the Church, and remains so to this day.

The Nation of Israel was/is real and did/does exist. The Church is different from the Nation of Israel in my opinion. Must needs be, otherwise there would have been no need for a New Covenant, or the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now, if you are saying that those who were found justified from the days before the establishment of the New Covenant Grace are part of the Church, in that they have received eternal life, then ok, but the Nation of Israel which encompasses all Jews who ever lived have not been found justified, and are not part of the Church in my opinion.

Within this definition.............all Israel (meaning all Jews who ever lived or are alive) will not inherit eternal life. Someone quoted Romans, Chapter 11, and this is a good example to quote, but must be understood as well........one particular little blurb from this Chapter is oft times overlooked or simply ignored........that being:

Romans 11:21 .) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 .) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 .) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 .) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Those citizens of Israel who died in their unbelief............and those today who will die in their unbelief..........that being their rejecting of Jesus Christ will not be grafted back in if we are to believe what the Apostle said here.

Now, just my thoughts here...........but this is how I read Scripture, and folks can label it as they wish, it's fine with me.

First Covenant: Law -- God's chosen people were the Nation of Israel

New Covenant: Grace -- God's chosen people are the Church, the Bride of Christ bought and paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and through Him is the ONLY way to eternal life.

And I think this is what you are saying...........except for a couple of points that I mentioned..........

Hi friend, in one of your last points you said something that I am trying to say.
You say the new covenant is for the Church and I totally agree. But I'm not sure if you are realizing this: That very covenant is for the HOUSE of Israel, that's what God said, so some how, that house HAS to be the church. Therefore it is for us, and all of Israel. Of which is the church, or the body, and that very body has to be the house of Israel. If you read the covenant, it's very clear who God says it s for, and if it's for those saved by Christ, then they are the Israel of God. Before I was saved I thought that Israel was Israel, because of the geographic location and the faith they have, and indeed they are. But according to NT understanding, that's not what makes a person chosen. It's not a geographic location that makes one Israel, if it were they would have never been cast off right? What makes them and us the family of God, is the root supporting the branches. Again, I'm in total agreement with the new covenant being for the body of Christ, all I am saying is this, it was written for no other House than the House of Israel. If it's for us, then we have to be them.

 

[fredjames]

According to the written Holy Scripture, what is CHRIST's definition of a 'Gentile'?

Can you handle them in 'humble and humility', 'as it is written'?

 

[sltaylor]

Why don't you tell me, and I try to man, I really do, not always as good as I should be about it.

 

[sltaylor]

The term "gentiles" is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. The original words*goy*and*ethnos*refer to "peoples" or "nations". Latin and later English translators selectively used the term "gentiles" when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations" referred to non-Israelite*peoples, without the 'understanding' of the law. So I assume the people's or nations without knowledge of the law according to an Israeli' perspective. Undoubtedly they lived among the Jews, but we're not allowed into the temple according to their law. But isn't that where in the problem lied? Was it not written that his Father's house would be called a house of prayer for all nations? And wasn't it the very ones who considered themselves to have the Law the very ones that Jesus said would be excluded from entering the Heavenly citizenship, unless they came in through him? I think, Christ considered everyone that the Father predestined to be conformed into his likeness to be the true citizens of the heavenly kingdom, because they are the very ones who would have his laws written in their hearts and minds, and God himself testified that those would be HIS PEOPLE, and he would be THEIR GOD. So I'm not sure what you are setting me up for. I think God's 'chosen' people were picked from eternity to be HIS people, thru his son, making them the true HOUSE of God.

 

[Elin]

Wow,very good my friend.
They,the patriarchs never saw the promise.

The patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) never received the fulfillment of the promise (of the land).

 

[fredjames]

The term "gentiles" is derived from Latin, used for contextual translation, and not an original Hebrew or Greek word from the Bible. The original words*goy*and*ethnos*refer to "peoples" or "nations". Latin and later English translators selectively used the term "gentiles" when the context for the base term "peoples" or "nations" referred to non-Israelite*peoples, without the 'understanding' of the law. So I assume the people's or nations without knowledge of the law according to an Israeli' perspective. Undoubtedly they lived among the Jews, but we're not allowed into the temple according to their law. But isn't that where in the problem lied? Was it not written that his Father's house would be called a house of prayer for all nations? And wasn't it the very ones who considered themselves to have the Law the very ones that Jesus said would be excluded from entering the Heavenly citizenship, unless they came in through him? I think, Christ considered everyone that the Father predestined to be conformed into his likeness to be the true citizens of the heavenly kingdom, because they are the very ones who would have his laws written in their hearts and minds, and God himself testified that those would be HIS PEOPLE, and he would be THEIR GOD. So I'm not sure what you are setting me up for. I think God's 'chosen' people were picked from eternity to be HIS people, thru his son, making them the true HOUSE of God.

Sorry to say this, first of of all, 'as it is written', "Love is not suspicious."

So if you 'love' others, no need to be 'suspicious' that, 'one is setting you up'. You have not paid attention to last reply and 'testify' accordingly to the written Holy Scripture of LORD JESUS CHRIST. You are giving us 'theology' lessons what the word 'Gentiles' mean and from that, 'interpreting' of their knowledge of 'logic' and their way to understand the commonly known meaning about Gentiles.

In humble and humility i testify that they only, as saying goes, 'scrape only the surface' of our spiritual sound doctrine knowledge of the HOLY BIBLE faith about the Gentiles, we have learned according to the written New Testament/Covenant, beginning from CHRIST 'sayings' in the Gospel, given to the believing Jews, HE chose and those who followed, to continue with HIM and after HIM, from the fellow Jews and later therefore also invite all the Gentiles in faith as well after HIM and henceforth build 'a gathering/church', teaching them all and bringing them all to equal 'submission' and 'obedience' order, Jews or Gentiles alike in the sight of GOD.

And so for a born again Gentile believer to first of all remember through the teaching of the written New Testament/Covenant Holy Scripture and not forgetting, their humble beginning, and their 'probable proud end', if they later become proud of themselves one day(as hagar later with Sarah, when she knew was welcomed into Abraham, as family), by forgetting their fair acceptance and adoption, 'by GOD's Grace through faith'. And this they have received only through CHRIST's chosen and personally taught Jew's and 'trustworthy testifiers' after HIM in faith, a 'living testimony for HIM and only about HIM', their 'welcome coheirs' to the common wealth and to the remnant of Israel, the 'New Heavenly Jerusalem of Sarah' and they are Matthew to Apostle John's Revelation and their faithful believers and followers documented even after CHRIST.

Are all Gentiles Christians, including you, 'living' and 'witnessing' for CHRIST, even under this 'short spiritual knowledge faith testimony' of the written New Testament/Covenant in humble and humility or 'have gone ahead of them'?

Apostle Paul knew Gentile Christian's 'weaknesses', a possible natural and unfruitful 'behavior' of the past may manifest due to their 'freedom', of becoming proud themselves one day towards the Jews, whether born again or non born again. For 'as a reminder' and 'a stir up of memory' of written and taught by the HOLY SPIRIT Holy Scripture, please pay attention for the common Good of all Gentiles to remain 'saved', before continuing about 'equality' claims testifying to others or even one another that in the Letter to the Romans and read carefully about the cautious message to the Gentiles about the 'cultivated olive tree and the wild olive tree branches'?

i am only 'testifying' what they have already 'testified' and 'is written' for 'witnessing'. i also 'testify' in plain and simple 'term used' by them who have 'testified' about Gentiles, even their Master JESUS, beginning from the 'Canaanite women' in the Gospel who troubledly within her, pleaded for her daughter's healing and was immediately denied by CHRIST at first.

Can you handle the term 'dogs' used indirectly, addressing generally about people like her (non-Jews), in her place first of all?

Will you, at that time be able to answer in humble and humility upon such 'insult' and 'humilition' in the presence of others, towards CHRIST, like her wise answer faith?

JESUS did also say to the Jews first, about not to give to dogs what is Good and Holy. for it will only turn around and bite them.

The Jews also used the term 'uncircumcised' and Apostle Paul's, 'people without GOD' about 'Gentiles'.

This is what i remember is written and 'as it is written' that i have 'requested' from you but you have an interpretation saying, 'people without the Law'. Can you please 'refresh' my memory where in the Holy Scripture this term is written? At least i know where are you coming from.

Thank you and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you.

 

[Cpsullivan2]

Ok, this is my first thread so hello to all, and thanks before hand to you who may reply.

This is the revelation I had a while ago, and have been helped by it deeply, but am realizing not many people see this. So please tell me I'm not "out there" for asking this question.
So here is the verse I was reading when it happened:

1st Peter 1:10- "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

Ok, this letter was addressed to God's elect "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood", so all of us in Christ. Peter states that the prophets who predicted Christ's sufferings, were prophesying of the grace that comes to us who believe in Jesus. The only prophets he was talking about who could have predicted Christ's sufferings, had to be before Christ came, and were the prophets who wrote the scripture they had at that time, essentially the Old Testament.
So here is the revelation I had and the question I want to ask you all:
If the Old Testament prophets we're speaking of the salvation that the body of Christ are receiving, what were they addressing us as??
Look back at the scripture and read it again carefully and see if you see what I'm saying. Like I said, this occurred to me about 3 years ago, so I have been looking into it for a while now and have figured it out to my satisfaction, but I have come to learn that this hasn't really occurred to alot of people, or may not even see it that way all together.
I can give all of you a hint tho of what answer has satisfied me, it has everything to do with Hebrews saying we have come to Mt. Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, and it also has everything to do with Jesus saying he was sent only for the "Lost sheep of Israel".
God bless, and please answer the question: If the prophets who predicted Christ's coming spoke of our grace in Christ, who wrote the scriptures they had at that time, (Isaiah, Jeremiah, all the ones Paul and Jesus and Peter quoted all over the place), were talking about our salvation, what were they addressing us as?

10 The prophets, who prophesied of the grace (divine blessing) which was intended for you, searched and inquired earnestly about this salvation.
11 They sought [to find out] to whom or when this was to come which the Spirit of Christ working within them was indicating when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that should follow [them].
12 It was then disclosed to them that the services they were rendering were not meant for themselves and their period of time, but for you. [It is these very] things which have now already been made known plainly to you by those who preached the good news (the Gospel) to you by the [same] Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Into these things [the very] angels long to look!
13 So brace up your minds; be sober (circumspect, morally alert); set your hope wholly and unchangeably on the grace (divine favor) that is coming to you when Jesus Christ (the Messiah) is revealed.
14 [Live] as children of obedience [to God]; do not conform yourselves to the evil desires [that governed you] in your former ignorance [when you did not know the requirements of the Gospel].
15 But as the One Who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all your conduct and manner of living.
16 For it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:10 AMP Bible

 

[Cpsullivan2]

I think that you explained that perfectly. Honestly this didn't even come to mind, when I was trying to think of some Bible scriptures to respond.

Then, I wasn't for sure exactly what she really wanted the answer to. I was going to use 2 Tim 3:16 but decided to just give her the scriptures from the Amplified Bible instead.

The Amplified Bible gives more understanding of the verses. It is really helpful and I hope that it will help her get more understanding.

I just can't get over your amazing reply.
God-Bless

 

[BradC]

The church and body of Christ is not the house of Israel, rather it is an organic body of people who are of the new birth and members one of another. This church and body is made up of both Jew and Gentile who have believed unto righteousness through Jesus Christ and him crucified. They have all been placed in Christ, hid with Christ in God and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This body is God's temple and building, fitly framed together and built as a habitation of God through the Spirit. We know that if this earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we would have a house of God not made with hands but eternal in the heavens and we groan to be clothed upon with our house from heaven. This is the body of Christ made up of every member who has trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ in this dispensation of grace and time of the Gentiles. This church and body will be raptured and caught up in the clouds of the air to meet the Lord, both of the living and of the dead who are in Christ.

The house of Israel will come into place after the church and body of Christ is taken up. The day will come when God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the one that was made with them when God took them by the hand and lead them out of the land of Egypt, but this time God will put his laws into their mind and write them in their hearts and they shall all know from the least to the greatest and God being merciful to their unrighteousness and remembering their sins and iniquities no more.

Amos 9:9-15

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

 

[Cpsullivan2]

The point of my question is this:
Jesus called us the lost sheep of ISRAEL.

The new Covenant is for the HOUSE of ISRAEL.

JEREMIAH 31: 33*"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,"

Paul says: No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart,*by the Spirit,*not by the written code.", & "In him you were also circumcised,*in the putting off of the sinful nature,*not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ."

The prodigal son in a foreign country, was not merely a parable of a son going anywhere on Earth. It describes those God foreknew, returning to him, meaning they were there at one point in time, for those God foreknew, he also predestined.
Jesus said he was sent from above to find that which was lost to take us home again. Meaning "for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."

Think of it like this, to make it home, one must know where one came from, period. And if our home is above, what must that mean?

Like this: you have Oklahoma above Texas. Say a man was leaving home, he left Oklahoma and he went to a completely different state, he went south to Texas. But while he was in a foreign state, the laws of that place and the actions of others steered him away, and led him into a terrible accident, he forgot where he came from a long the way. But say this man's brother came to Texas to find his lost brother. He told everyone he was from above and the laws of this place didn't apply to him. But they hated him, they could not understand what he was saying because his laws and speech were foreign to them. But he found his brother, and his brother remembered suddenly where he was from, he remembered his daddy's rules and the laws of his state. Well soon all this guy's buddies who led him into all this trouble started to dislike him too. The Lost man started talking like the guy from above in Oklahoma. But the man that found the lost brother, well he went back home, his work was complete and told the lost brother he had to stay, cause there may be others that these crazy guys from below had led away, and he told the brother not to be afraid of all the wild people, while he was here the laws of the foreign country wouldn't apply to him because he would be an ambassador now, and every ambassador is governed by the laws of his own country while in this foreign place, so do not be afraid, he would have diplomatic immunity.
If the man from above had to come below to find that brother that had wondered away, doesn't that mean they are both from the same place? You think both brothers foreknew each other before coming to the wild foreign place?
You see the one wild child was lost, he had forgot the laws of his home or even how to get back to that place.

To be the Lost sheep of Israel, of the heavenly one, well that's just deep. Not all scripture is about earthly things, Isaiah 54 is about the heavenly Jerusalem, but they still call it Zion. The new covenant is for us, but God says its for the house of Israel, but we fail to look at that and remember there's two houses of Israel, one above, one below, they are both called the same thing, and this is why it's important to understand, our citizenship is in heaven.
And that is the house of Israel, and those members have been circumcised in heart, washed clean, all done by the hands of Christ. Such a thing makes a person a member or the heavenly Jerusalem as Paul says: Such a man's praise comes not from men but God.

You quoted Matt 15:24. 24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Keep in mind that he was talking to a gentile woman, who was literally begging him to heal her daughter. Plainly, speaking he was telling the woman He(himself)wasn't sent to the gentiles but only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

We have to keep the scripture in context with what they are talking about. I am sorry to say that you are mistaken, when you say that New Covenant is for the house of Israel. The New and Better Covenant is for both jews and gentiles.
It is a covenant of faith. Our salvation is of faith in Jesus believing that he died on the cross for our sins but was raised from the dead the third, for our justification. Rom 4:25.


Let us not forget that God had a plan to graft in the gentiles from the beginning, as a promise to his faithful servant, Abraham.
In, Jn 10:16 Jesus said, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd".

He was talking about the gentile and the becoming one in him and this is the New Covenant that we are in right now. As, the Apostle Paul said, "there is neither jew nor greek, bond nor free but we are all one in Christ Jesus, our Lord".

When, Jesus said that, "they are not of this world because I am not of this world". He was praying before his return to the Father, asking him "not to take them out of the world but should keep them from evil."

When we becomes believers, "we become new creatures in Christ Jesus". 1Cor 5:17
God will deliver us from our ways and habits, and we will no longer be the same but will have a new mindset. Not wanting to do the things we use to but to follow the Lord with all of our hearts and be obedient to his Word. A change take place on the inside of us that reflects on the outside.

Jesus didn't want to leave his disciples unprotected, or killed but that God will keep them by his Holy Spirit, just as the Father kept Jesus while he was on this earth. what he meant by not being of this world is that he came from heaven, therefore not being of this world. So, with his disciples it is the same. Although, they live in this world they are not of this world because they are in Christ, and he in them. He was speaking spiritually here.

One day soon, Jesus will come back to the sky and take his church back to heaven with him, for seven years. This is known as the Rapture. After, the great Tribulation take place then Christ will return to earth again. This is called the Second Coming of Christ. It is during this time Christ will rule and reign for 1000 years. There will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, with a new Jerusalem coming from heaven.

Ep. 4:5-6 says, "4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all".


I really help this give you more understanding.
Be Blessed!

 

[Cpsullivan2]

Sound like you are a 'replacement theology' believer, although you say you are not. The church is not Israel. I suggest you pray and seek understanding from the Holy Spirit. He is our teacher.

You are so very wrong and you are refusing to even consider what others, that knows and understand the truth of God's Word.
Remember, Paul said that the Holy Spirit gave gifts unto men. One was exhortation.
All, I ask is that you consider, what we are saying before you just completely reject it. You asked for us to tell you what we think.

If, you only wanted responses from only those whom you only agree with, then you really should have stated that.

 

[Cpsullivan2]

Wrong again! God still loves the jews and his, yes still his chosen people the jews. They are still the apple of God's eye and that will never change. There is grace, mercy and salvation for the jews and God still loves the nation of Israel. There is no Spiritual Israel. God did not replace his chosen people with the church, no matter what your replace theology teaches you!

Do you remember, what Jesus told the woman of Samartin? He plainly told her that salvation is of the jews and that they that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth.

You are lacking truth and you are blinded thinking that you can see, when it is so obvious to the us who knows the truth and isn't afraid to say it.

 

[Cpsullivan2]

Hey stephen, yeah sorry about that wording, I was not implying Israel was replaced sorry. In that case, I was specifically talking about on the grafting of the tree. He removed them so we could be put in. And you are correct. They will be grafted back in. It was prophesied by Moses God would make them envious through us, but once they see the salvation that is Christ, they will come home to the tree. The nation Israel is Israel, because of being a part of the tree, from Christ, the whole name is derived. They are not simply Israel by name, but they ARE Israel, by being a piece of the tree, which is Supported by Christ. The tree is the Israel of God, natural and grafted alike. There is no other holy, chosen nation that scripture Speaks of, there is only one, and the only Israel of God, is the whole community, supported by Christ. Yes we are Cgristains, but heaven isn't simply called heaven, there's still a state and City with members dwelling there. It's still Jerusalem, and it's still Israel, and now through Christ we may all be the family, and members, and citizens of God's Holy city, the one built by his hand, the one true promised land that Abraham and his seed were promised. Sorry for making it seem like I was saying we completely replaced Israel. I would never say that. All Israel will be saved for sure, all I meant was is that for now, we are on the tree and they are not. But they will be. But only after they are made envious of our reward, and I'm not sure they are envious, they still think we are wrong. This is what Paul quoted, and will come to pass, then they will be saved. The song of Moses:
Deuteronomy 32:21*"They made me jealous*by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols.*I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding."*

What do you mean they are not on the tree? They are the tree, we are the branches. How can you not understand that?
There is salvation for anyone who accept Christ as their personal savior, including the jews. God didn't reject them, he only allowed their stumble for away that we the gentiles could be grafted in and we could be saved through Christ.

You have the wrong doctrine. God made a covenant with Abraham Gen 12:3 "I will bless those, who bless thee, and curse he that curseth thee.

Prov 4:7 "In all thy getting get understanding"

 

[Elin]

What do you mean they are not on the tree?
They are the tree, we are the branches.

Well, actually they are not the tree, they are also the branches, some of which have been cut off.

The tree would be Christ, in whom the branches (the people of God) abide,
and its roots would be the holy patriarchs.
It's the tree of Abraham's faith (Gal 3:26-29) in the Promise (Jesus Christ).

 

[sltaylor]

What do you mean they are not on the tree? They are the tree, we are the branches. How can you not understand that?
There is salvation for anyone who accept Christ as their personal savior, including the jews. God didn't reject them, he only allowed their stumble for away that we the gentiles could be grafted in and we could be saved through Christ.

You have the wrong doctrine. God made a covenant with Abraham Gen 12:3 "I will bless those, who bless thee, and curse he that curseth thee.

Prov 4:7 "In all thy getting get understanding"

If Israel was the tree they would have never been cast off. Christ is the tree. Not to mention, GOD told Abraham to his descendants he would give this land forever, and to be given a land forever involves eternity, and if it involves eternity that's a heavenly thing brother. Scripture says Abraham was looking forward to a heavenly home, and scripture also says that it is the children of promise, born by the Power of the spirit, who Are regarded as Abraham's true seed, for if you are IN CHRIST you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. So I think you are missing what made Israel in the first place. Being a child of Abraham for one. Being on the tree, supported by the root which was Christ. Inheriting a land forever...the heavenly Jerusalem. All of those things we recieve, through Christ. Am I saying we are the natural branches. No. But as scripture declares, it's not the children born in the ordinary way who are regarded as Abraham's descendants, it the children of promise, and as Galatians says the children of promise, are born by the power of the spirit, and as Christ says spirit gives birth to spirit.....born again, means the children of promise, Abraham's seed was Christ!
Apart from being a descendant of Abraham, and in the tree supported by Christ, there is no Israel. That's what made them chosen in the first place.

 

[sltaylor]

What do you mean they are not on the tree? They are the tree, we are the branches. How can you not understand that?
There is salvation for anyone who accept Christ as their personal savior, including the jews. God didn't reject them, he only allowed their stumble for away that we the gentiles could be grafted in and we could be saved through Christ.

You have the wrong doctrine. God made a covenant with Abraham Gen 12:3 "I will bless those, who bless thee, and curse he that curseth thee.

Prov 4:7 "In all thy getting get understanding"

John 15:1-8, and Romans 11:19-23.
I don't know how it could be any clearer.

Not cursing anybody, they will be grafted back in if they don't continue in their unbelief.
Just like every other nation on earth, no one who doesn't come to Christ, will EVER enter the kingdom, and that goes for everyone, there is nothing that makes anyone chosen other than him.

* * ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **

 

[Cpsullivan2]

If Israel was the tree they would have never been cast off. Christ is the tree. Not to mention, GOD told Abraham to his descendants he would give this land forever, and to be given a land forever involves eternity, and if it involves eternity that's a heavenly thing brother. Scripture says Abraham was looking forward to a heavenly home, and scripture also says that it is the children of promise, born by the Power of the spirit, who Are regarded as Abraham's true seed, for if you are IN CHRIST you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. So I think you are missing what made Israel in the first place. Being a child of Abraham for one. Being on the tree, supported by the root which was Christ. Inheriting a land forever...the heavenly Jerusalem. All of those things we recieve, through Christ. Am I saying we are the natural branches. No. But as scripture declares, it's not the children born in the ordinary way who are regarded as Abraham's descendants, it the children of promise, and as Galatians says the children of promise, are born by the power of the spirit, and as Christ says spirit gives birth to spirit.....born again, means the children of promise, Abraham's seed was Christ!
Apart from being a descendant of Abraham, and in the tree supported by Christ, there is no Israel. That's what made them chosen in the first place.

Genesis 17:1-21King James Version (KJV)


17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.


3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,


4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.


5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.


6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.


7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.


8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.


9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.


10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.


11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.


12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.


13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.


16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.


17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?


18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!


19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.


20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.


21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Here in these verses it clearly shows that God did chose Israel, when he made his covenant with Abraham. He didn't even allow Ishmael to stay in the same house with the promise covenant son.

How can you possibly talk about Abraham without acknowledging Israel,(Jacob) who is Abraham's grandson, that God also "chose" and a covenant with. Encase you didn't see the words "everlasting covenant", they are mention in these scripture alone are mentioned 11 times.

How can you not understand this? Do you believe that someway the Jews are no longer the seed of Abraham? God forbid!

Are unaware that, Jesus himself called the Jewish people the olive tree. You can not separate the ones, whom was chosen by God in order their salvation to mercifully open up to you? Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, a Hebrew born in the country of Israel, in the town of Bethlehem.

Now how can you possibly argue with that? Although he was rejected by his people, it was preordained for us in order for us to be redeemed back to God.

He has not rejected his people, nor have he rejected you. We have to be willing and obedient to come unto him.

I pray that God will deliver all of his people and his church, who are deceived by this false doctrine.
Jesus said, " I am way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, except by me."

This is for everyone and it does not leave out Israel!

 

[Cpsullivan2]

John 15:1-8, and Romans 11:19-23.
I don't know how it could be any clearer.

Not cursing anybody, they will be grafted back in if they don't continue in their unbelief.
Just like every other nation on earth, no one who doesn't come to Christ, will EVER enter the kingdom, and that goes for everyone, there is nothing that makes anyone chosen other than him.

* * ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **[/QUOTE/]

Are you sure that you are have been grafted in? According to you, because of their unbelief they no longer is part of the family and household of God. If that is what you believe, then you don't have a right to grafted in now because of your unbelief. You don't truly believe the entire word of God but only the scriptures that you think justify what you believe as truth.